Why do we struggle where other big prem clubs do fine

Lee565

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After seeing chelsea draw madrid and seeing the stats that Chelsea have really gotten the better of madrid over recent years, it is frustrating that teams like man City, Liverpool and Chelsea have always been able to hold their own against the the 3 biggest European sides in madrid, Barca and bayern in terms of results and going on the front foot tactically but we have tended to struggle or set up like and inferior side for years and years against these sides, even going back to fergie's years in the 2000's/2010's we still had a woeful record against these sides.

I can only think it is down to the heavy continental influence these sides have had over the past 3 decades compared to us.

What would you put it down to?
 
Scot and Fred being a weak midfield 2 and Pogba not being consistent enough for us to put any meaningful midfield partnerships together
 
Because our CB's, CM's and CF's go missing at best or are ripped apart. If you haven't noticed that's a huge chunk of the pitch and the most important.
 
Liverpool have the whole Anfield thing going for them. Even if in reality the atmosphere doesn't live upto the reputation, the reputation itself has an effect on the opposition.

Chelsea under Roman Ambramovic have developed a culture of ruthlessness - they're almost a bit of a mini Real Madrid, where that entire culture at the club somehow has them competing.

We have none of those things.
 
Lee565 said:
After seeing chelsea draw madrid and seeing the stats that Chelsea have really gotten the better of madrid over recent years, it is frustrating that teams like man City, Liverpool and Chelsea have always been able to hold their own against the the 3 biggest European sides in madrid, Barca and bayern in terms of results and going on the front foot tactically but we have tended to struggle or set up like and inferior side for years and years against these sides, even going back to fergie's years in the 2000's/2010's we still had a woeful record against these sides.

I can only think it is down to the heavy continental influence these sides have had over the past 3 decades compared to us.

What would you put it down to?
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We have always problems with spanish sides. Always. Doesn't matter who we play. From Deportivo La Coruna to Real Madrid. It is just the way they play that doesn't suit us at all.

I don't think we are that bad against other countries top teams.
 
90 + 5min said:
We have always problems with spanish sides. Always. Doesn't matter who we play. From Deportivo La Coruna to Real Madrid. It is just the way they play that doesn't suit us at all.

I don't think we are that bad against other countries top teams.
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A bit of a sad state of affairs that the club hasn't managed to evolve at all in 20 odd years.
 
Because the club doesn’t have an elite mentality and has completely failed to modernise. Chelsea was ahead of us as a club 15 years ago we just had a 1 man genius to keep us competitive.
 
90 + 5min said:
We have always problems with spanish sides. Always. Doesn't matter who we play. From Deportivo La Coruna to Real Madrid. It is just the way they play that doesn't suit us at all.

I don't think we are that bad against other countries top teams.
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Sorry but this is absolute nonsense.

You can't say the way Spanish teams play doesn't suit us. We've been a different team with different players, different tactical setups and different managers with completely different play styles. It's much more the case that other teams have filled their squad with technically able players in order to not only compete but beat them at their own game. What's more they are ruthless in selling players and don't bloat their squad with these average players putting them on high wages. No other top prem team would have kept a passenger like Pogba, rewarded Jones, Rojo, Shaw, Martial, Lingard etc with new contracts and then buy players like Maguire and AWB and expect to beat the likes of Madrid and Barca.
 
VidaRed said:
Because our CB's, CM's and CF's go missing at best or are ripped apart. If you haven't noticed that's a huge chunk of the pitch and the most important.
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This.

Hard to compete in the big games when the spine of the team is Maguire, McFred and a 37 year old Ronaldo.

On top of that, we're a shambles off the pitch. No clear vision/strategy and lack the mentality of a top club.
 
Lee565 said:
After seeing chelsea draw madrid and seeing the stats that Chelsea have really gotten the better of madrid over recent years, it is frustrating that teams like man City, Liverpool and Chelsea have always been able to hold their own against the the 3 biggest European sides in madrid, Barca and bayern in terms of results and going on the front foot tactically but we have tended to struggle or set up like and inferior side for years and years against these sides, even going back to fergie's years in the 2000's/2010's we still had a woeful record against these sides.

I can only think it is down to the heavy continental influence these sides have had over the past 3 decades compared to us.

What would you put it down to?
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Better coaching, smarter tactics and hungrier players, Successful football teams, whether at home or abroad always have similar characteristics in terms of ambition, attitude and application. It is not rocket science. All the things that we used to do so well, but seem to have grown tired of because our club is more interested in building a global brand than relentlessly pursuing trophies.
 
The club is still in the dark ages. We didn’t even have a womens team until recently. Zlatan alluded to how backwards the club is.
 
Skills said:
Liverpool have the whole Anfield thing going for them. Even if in reality the atmosphere doesn't live upto the reputation, the reputation itself has an effect on the opposition.

Chelsea under Roman Ambramovic have developed a culture of ruthlessness - they're almost a bit of a mini Real Madrid, where that entire culture at the club somehow has them competing.

We have none of those things.
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All down to Mourinho MK1. Under Ranieri we really should have achieved more. Jose changed the entire mentality of the club. He didn’t care who the club upset as long as he won, as to him history is not runners up, history is winning and no one remembers 2nd place.
 
Under Fergie I think it's because he built teams that obviously had quality but was bright up a few levels by fight and good attitude. There were many years through the 00's where I felt we had an incomplete team in terms of top class in every position. The Real, Barca's and Bayern's always seemed to have a lot of quality throughout and therefore could dominate against us a bit more.

Post Fergie, we've just been dreadful. Liverpool, City and Chelsea have only done well in more recent years but they've built modern teams with a lot of energy and quality, so can match these teams. We've just not yet functioned at all in the more modern footballing arena.

Hopefully somebody like ETH with Rangnick upstairs can change that.
 
Skills said:
Liverpool have the whole Anfield thing going for them. Even if in reality the atmosphere doesn't live upto the reputation, the reputation itself has an effect on the opposition.
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Ehhhh Old Trafford was even more of a fortress once upon a time, and plenty of sides have looked nervous coming to our ground even in recent years - Atletico could barely make a pass in the first 10-15 minutes this week even. It's just that our players and managers are bang average, and don't live up to our reputation, and we are STILL a scalp so most sides are incredibly motivated to beat us.
 
We're definitely behind the other top British clubs in terms of club structure and facilities and this has played a big part IMO. This stretches back to Fergie's final days when the club decided to kick it's feet up and let the genius of one man do all the work, with no succession plan in place for replacing that unique genius. Meanwhile all the top clubs around us restructured and modernised. The Glazers let the club rot basically.
 
iHicksy said:
Sorry but this is absolute nonsense.

You can't say the way Spanish teams play doesn't suit us. We've been a different team with different players, different tactical setups and different managers with completely different play styles. It's much more the case that other teams have filled their squad with technically able players in order to not only compete but beat them at their own game. What's more they are ruthless in selling players and don't bloat their squad with these average players putting them on high wages. No other top prem team would have kept a passenger like Pogba, rewarded Jones, Rojo, Shaw, Martial, Lingard etc with new contracts and then buy players like Maguire and AWB and expect to beat the likes of Madrid and Barca.
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We don't need to go into players here. Even in the 90's when we started to play against more and more spanish sides due more games in Champions League we always had hard time against spanish sides. That was also with a team we can consider as best (?) in our history. So it is not about only now.
 
SirReginald said:
All down to Mourinho MK1. Under Ranieri we really should have achieved more. Jose changed the entire mentality of the club. He didn’t care who the club upset as long as he won, as to him history is not runners up, history is winning and no one remembers 2nd place.
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Except Jose who celebrated 2nd with Utd.
 
Wait, am i missing something...

Chelsea got pounded by Bayern Munich 8-1 in the aggregate just a couple of years ago, and i don't remember them going far in the UCL until the last edition.

What Chelsea european domination are you talking about?

Same goes for City, they got knocked out by Monaco, Lyon, Tottenham, and before 2020, they got pounded by Real Madrid and Barcelona.

What City european domination exactly has happened?

Liverpool indeed has a decent record in the UCL against big teams, but Chelsea and City certainly don't.

Where does this City/Chelsea european domination come from? Only because of 1 season? Cmon....
 
Wolf1992 said:
Wait, am i missing something...

Chelsea got pounded by Bayern Munich 8-1 in the aggregate just a couple of years ago, and i don't remember them going far in the UCL until the last edition.

What Chelsea european domination are you talking about?

Same goes for City, they got knocked out by Monaco, Lyon, Tottenham, and before 2020, they got pounded by Real Madrid and Barcelona.

What City european domination exactly has happened?

Liverpool indeed has a decent record in the UCL against big teams, but Chelsea and City certainly don't.

Where does this City/Chelsea european domination come from? Only because of 1 season? Cmon....
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He's not talking about domination, just results against the biggest sides. At least with Chelsea, he has a point:

Chelsea (W/D/L)
v. Bayern: 1/2/3
v. Barcelona: 6/6/6
v. Real Madrid: 3/2/0
Total: 10/10/9

Man United (W/D/L)
v. Bayern: 2/5/5
v. Barcelona: 3/4/7
v. Real Madrid: 3/4/5
Total: 8/13/17

As to the question posed by @Lee565, I think the biggest factor is sheer bad luck, but also part of the issue was SAF's approach - he was the ultimate tactical chameleon whose squad management over the course of a season was second to none, but a large part of that was due to his ability to react and adapt to what he was observing. I generally think we as football fans overestimate the impact a manager can have in a one off match (especially because of selection bias; it's far easier to remember the major tactical switches that work out as opposed to all those that didn't) and I think we underestimate the impact a manager can have over a 5-10 game stretch as he makes adjustments to the XI, changes training, speaks to players individually, etc. Given SAF's strengths, for me it's not hugely surprising United were far stronger in league play than in cups - this is also reflected in domestic trophies (i.e. 13 league titles vs. 9 FA & league cups).
 
The problem for me is that there have been to many people making decisions on contracts /transfers etc who do not really understand ground level football and what our football team means to us. These people have been introduced to the football club as financial controllers , we in the past have let these people make to many decisions and so we are now where we are.Going forward we need a strong manager who will have the will, and strong mindedness to make sure the team,selections and transfer business are what he wants.Does this remind you if anyone.
 
Blood Mage said:
We're definitely behind the other top British clubs in terms of club structure and facilities and this has played a big part IMO. This stretches back to Fergie's final days when the club decided to kick it's feet up and let the genius of one man do all the work, with no succession plan in place for replacing that unique genius. Meanwhile all the top clubs around us restructured and modernised. The Glazers let the club rot basically.
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The Glazers really thought they could just hire Moyes and sign Fellani and it would be BAU :lol: The only good thing to come out of this season is that we are now so bad it’s effecting the money and they will actually have to do some work to improve the club.
 
Liverpool aside, who has a better record than Utd in the European cup/Champions league? We didnt dominate under Fergie and had 2 lucky wins when we won it. Revisit this again when City and Chelsea have 4 Champions league apiece.
 
No single answer obviously..

No strategy, squad constructed by 5 managers with completely different styles, poor facilities, poor coaching, poor management, poor scouting, culture of accepting average, bloated roster, jobs for the boys, cabal of bankers and lawyers handling recruitment and planning.

I'd say the above isnt a recipe for success.
 
I’d say the answers are all in the ‘football gods hate us’ thread. These might as well be merged.
 
One important factor might be that unlike Liverpool, City etc. Whenever we've drawn the likes of Madrid, Bayern or Barcelona, they've had a better team than us. Except for when they haven't, in which case we've tended to either beat them or go out because of some refereeing related anomaly.

Chelsea if you go back to the same period didn't really fare any better. First time they won the CL they beat Barcelona and Bayern but should have lost about 15-0 to both and definitely didn't set up as if they weren't the inferior side. They probably had about 30 completed passes over the course of the 3 games. They played so inferiorly that they had a player sent off and their tactics didn't even change.

City and Liverpool didn't start becoming good until Real and Barcelona started becoming shite, and they've both avoided Bayern during any of their stronger spells, apart from when city got them in the group stage and got played off the pitch.

City also haven't even figured out how to win a CL yet. They can't even beat teams that are obviously worse than then when it really matters

Basically I think this thread is just wrong.
 
noodlehair said:
One important factor might be that unlike Liverpool, City etc. Whenever we've drawn the likes of Madrid, Bayern or Barcelona, they've had a better team than us. Except for when they haven't, in which case we've tended to either beat them or go out because of some refereeing related anomaly.

Chelsea if you go back to the same period didn't really fare any better. First time they won the CL they beat Barcelona and Bayern but should have lost about 15-0 to both and definitely didn't set up as if they weren't the inferior side. They probably had about 30 completed passes over the course of the 3 games. They played so inferiorly that they had a player sent off and their tactics didn't even change.

City and Liverpool didn't start becoming good until Real and Barcelona started becoming shite, and they've both avoided Bayern during any of their stronger spells, apart from when city got them in the group stage and got played off the pitch.

City also haven't even figured out how to win a CL yet. They can't even beat teams that are obviously worse than then when it really matters

Basically I think this thread is just wrong.
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But even further back than that Chelsea held their own against Barca in the 2008/09 season and were basically robbed massively (the infamous match where Drogba said it was a f'in disgrace) and then when we faced Barca in the final we couldn't touch them. Even going further back than that Chelsea kept drawing Barca in group stages when mourinho first took over and they went toe to toe with them.
 
Because Utd are badly run. They give Mata a new contract because he is a nice guy, Phil Jones because he has been unlucky and probably Rashford because he was called some nasties on twitter. Utd is a more like a charity for footballers than a proper club.
 
One thing that bugs me is how teams like Chelsea, Madrid etc can change their managers so frequently and yet still compete at the highest level with generally the same bunch of players. With United, it always seems like we need some sort of reset/clear-out for every new manager we hire.
 
smi11ie said:
Because Utd are badly run. They give Mata a new contract because he is a nice guy, Phil Jones because he has been unlucky and probably Rashford because he was called some nasties on twitter. Utd is a more like a charity for footballers than a proper club.
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Nice guys finish last.
 
Freak said:
One thing that bugs me is how teams like Chelsea, Madrid etc can change their managers so frequently and yet still compete at the highest level with generally the same bunch of players. With United, it always seems like we need some sort of reset/clear-out for every new manager we hire.
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It's because we do things in the strangest ways and that idea isn't limited to the club, we currently have lunatics making lists of the dozens of players they would get rid of. These clubs that you mention, keep players that show promises and bring managers that may get more out of these players. United does the opposite, they try to bring players that could make a manager look good which is in itself a boneheaded idea for the simple reason that managers rarely know the players that are signed, they rarely sign players that they already coached and even they did, you are talking about bringing someone in a new environment you don't know how they will adapt.

At United the likes of Vinicius, Militao, Benzema, Modric, Havertz, Jorginho and many others would have been saddled with managers or teammates that don't suit them. These clubs make mistakes, it's not as if the likes of Lampard, Sarri, Lopetegui or Benitez have been successes but the club spotted the problems and tried to fix it quickly while not inventing new problems.
 
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Why do we struggle? My 2 pennies worth.

Ralf hit this on the head 2 weeks ago. The club need to identify how they want to play and then recruit the best staff that fit that model. That way, if we had to fire a manager or replace a player the setup still enables the next guy to carry on. We've not had that. Every manager has had an entirely different view of how football should be played to their predecessors.

Now because it's not easy for us to sell given the kinds of contracts we hand out, squads frequently become unbalanced with players that do not complement each other.


Edit: I don't want this part to hide in the answer, but we do not hire best in class staff. Thought it was worth specifying this as it's own point
 
JPRouve said:
These clubs make mistakes, it's not as if the likes of Lampard, Sarri, Lopetegui or Benitez have been successes but the club spotted the problems and tried to fixt it quickly while not inventing new problems.
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I feel like this right here is the biggest problem. We just seem to be so slow at identifying problems and trying to fix them.
 
A lot of it is timing. We never got drawn against Madrid during the mid noughties when they were terrible and we were at our best. Meanwhile Liverpool beat probably the worst Madrid side any of us can remember 4-0 I think it was at Anfield during that time.
 
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