Why do we make so few tackles?

[RedSky]

Starting to wish I hadn't stumbled across the PL club stats thingy.

Check this shit out. The clubs whose keepers have made the most saves this season.

Spoiler: Yikes

1. Swansea City 96
2. Manchester United 85
3. Stoke City 85
4. Brighton and Hove Albion 81
5. Crystal Palace 81
6. Everton 81
7. Leicester City 78
8. Burnley 77
9. Southampton 77
10. Newcastle United 75
11. AFC Bournemouth 73
12. West Ham United 71
13. Watford 68
14. Huddersfield Town 67
15. West Bromwich Albion 64
16. Arsenal 59
17. Tottenham Hotspur 55
18. Chelsea 50
19. Manchester City 41
20. Liverpool 40

FFS!

Spoiler: Last season

1.Sunderland 176
2. Burnley 151
3. Hull City 137
4. Leicester City 131
5. Stoke City 127
6. Arsenal 124
7. AFC Bournemouth 123
8. Swansea City 121
9. Watford 121
10. Middlesbrough 117
11. West Ham United 117
12. West Bromwich Albion 116
13. Crystal Palace 108
14. Everton 96
15. Manchester United 85
16. Tottenham Hotspur 85
17. Southampton 76
18. Liverpool 73
19. Chelsea 69
20. Manchester City 64

We need to not concede another shot on target between now and the end of the season in order to protect the goal as well as we did in 2016/17. Hard not to conclude there's a link between us making much fewer tackles than last season and our goal being peppered with much more shots...

Stats taken from Whoscored:

Player.....................Total Saves.............Six Yard Box.........Penalty Area..........Out of Box
David De Gea..................83.............................5..........................43.........................35
Petr Cech........................55.............................6..........................34.........................15
Huge Lloris......................47.............................1..........................32.........................14
Thibaut Courtois...............46.............................1..........................25.........................20
Ederson...........................40.............................2..........................27.........................11

All have pretty similar minutes played in the PL, between 2000 and 2250. Thank feck for David De Gea is all I can say.

 

[paulscholes18]

Bloody hell we have faced 21 more shots on target than the team bottom of the league

 

[Hansa]

We don't press.

I read a statistic before Christmas which put us bottom of miles/km per game. So there you have it. The best paid squad in the league actually puts in the least amount of effort.

 

[pocco]

We're like Arsenal, who apparently are actually outperforming us. I never feel like the players are pumped up for these games. It looks to me like they believe their own hype and wait for shit to happen.

Valencia is the most robust and aggressive player in our squad by an absolute country mile. The Spurs players didn't try shit with him yesterday and you could see the respect they had for him. He goes for every ball thinking there is no way he is letting the other player come away with it.

 

[RedSky]

Again stats from Whoscored but adding to the above:

Player.....................Total Saves...........Goals Conceded......Clean Sheets
David De Gea..................83.............................18..........................14
Petr Cech........................55.............................34..........................9
Huge Lloris......................47.............................21..........................10
Thibaut Courtois...............46.............................19..........................12
Ederson...........................40.............................18..........................12

Now, it's hard to say what quality of save each keeper is making. Whether it's a routine save or a brilliant stop. But given that David De Gea has saved over twice the amount of shots Ederson has had and yet conceded the same amount and kept more clean sheets suggests to me that David De Gea has been a one man defense at the back (something we all know).

 

[Adisa]

We're like Arsenal, who apparently are actually outperforming us. I never feel like the players are pumped up for these games. It looks to me like they believe their own hype and wait for shit to happen.

Valencia is the most robust and aggressive player in our squad by an absolute country mile. The Spurs players didn't try shit with him yesterday and you could see the respect they had for him. He goes for every ball thinking there is no way he is letting the other player come away with it.

Arsenal are not outperforming us. Not a chance.

 

[RepardReece]

Our players are lazy in defence. Last season United had Rojo who is a more aggressive defender, and Bailly, who was rock solid. This season we've had to put up with Jones and Smalling, two lazy CB's that make SO MANY mistakes. We haven't had a proper LB this season and Mourinho's too much of an idiot to play Shaw. Valencia is a consistent good performer, but if you have realised oppositions don't play down our right side, they attack our weak position, the left, and that would be resolved if we had Shaw there.

Shaw---Rojo---Bailly---Valencia

We need defenders like Sanchez, players who put in effort game after game and close the opposition down like players should do. United games are getting so depressing to watch. The counter attacking play isn't working, we don't have a full out striker as Lukaku is dropping back and finishing is not great. Why can't we play like the first 15minutes of the Spurs game after their goal. That was brilliant (apart from the missed opportunities). I absolutely hate Mourinho's tactics but when he first came I thought it wouldn't matter because he still wins the league, but its just not working out with us.

 

[Acole9]

One of two reasons.

1) The players don't want to get their uniforms dirty.

2) They don't want to hurt the opposition.

 

[Beagle]

Those numbers only tell part of the story. Playing styles dictate how much a team is needed to tackle. Like a team that generally enjoys more possession than their opponents would require to make fewer tackles.

Another factor obviously is the players available. We have a lack of pace in midfield and at centre back so a missed tackle is more risky now compared to when a young Rio was covering.

In general top teams have players who believe they can be more effective defensively through their positioning and awareness. A missed tackle would mean the team losing its shape and the tackler being out of position. It's just how the game has evolved I think.

Pressing is a different matter. It's what all good teams do very well. All successful teams in the recent era like to press with high intensity. It can be achieved with the right preparation and is something we can improve a lot on. Our players seem to press one at a time leaving options open for their opponents. Spurs did a really good job last night by pressing high and not allowing us to play out from the back. We have the players capable of playing this kind of game and Jose needs to set the team up to press high.

 

[Fully Fledged]

Let's be more like Huddersfield.

Starting to wish I hadn't stumbled across the PL club stats thingy.

Check this shit out. The clubs whose keepers have made the most saves this season.

Spoiler: Yikes

1. Swansea City 96
2. Manchester United 85
3. Stoke City 85
4. Brighton and Hove Albion 81
5. Crystal Palace 81
6. Everton 81
7. Leicester City 78
8. Burnley 77
9. Southampton 77
10. Newcastle United 75
11. AFC Bournemouth 73
12. West Ham United 71
13. Watford 68
14. Huddersfield Town 67
15. West Bromwich Albion 64
16. Arsenal 59
17. Tottenham Hotspur 55
18. Chelsea 50
19. Manchester City 41
20. Liverpool 40

FFS!

Spoiler: Last season

1.Sunderland 176
2. Burnley 151
3. Hull City 137
4. Leicester City 131
5. Stoke City 127
6. Arsenal 124
7. AFC Bournemouth 123
8. Swansea City 121
9. Watford 121
10. Middlesbrough 117
11. West Ham United 117
12. West Bromwich Albion 116
13. Crystal Palace 108
14. Everton 96
15. Manchester United 85
16. Tottenham Hotspur 85
17. Southampton 76
18. Liverpool 73
19. Chelsea 69
20. Manchester City 64

We need to not concede another shot on target between now and the end of the season in order to protect the goal as well as we did in 2016/17. Hard not to conclude there's a link between us making much fewer tackles than last season and our goal being peppered with much more shots...

That's why @Carolina Red wants to get rid of him. If he wasn't making as many saves the rest of the team would have to play better. Either that or we would be further down the league.

 

[ADJUDICATOR]

To avoid living in fear in case we get the ball.

 

[Beachryan]

I've always figured it's so that come, well around now, we'll still have the legs to finish the last few months of the season off well.

Otherwise, it doesn't make any sense. Watching how effective Spurs/Pools pressing just makes it feel obvious every team should do so. I don't personally like it - there's something reductive about how it reduces the skill involved to be more about ones ability without the ball than with it, but that seems to be how the game is going.

 

[diplomat]

I read a statistic before Christmas which put us bottom of miles/km per game. So there you have it. The best paid squad in the league actually puts in the least amount of effort.

This is the statistic that pisses me off the most. And some posters on RedCafe have the audacity to use excuses like "the team got gassed", "player X/Y/Z is tired and overplayed", "we had to rest this player for another".

Pogba is one of the main culprits in this scenario, in my opinion. He has the physique, the power, the drive, the ability to be a world class player and a non-stop midfield engine at the same time. But he'd rather stroll around when a game gets too tough for him. Pogba has all the attributes to almost be a one-man midfield, yet in the big matches, he is constantly found out as a coward.

What this team lacks in comparison to our league-winning squads under Sir Alex Ferguson isn't technical ability. It's the guts, the mentality, the complacency and the belief which is severely lacking. No other team or manager could come close enough and that is why Sir Alex and his squads were constantly a dominant force both domestically and in Europe.

 

[Mozza]

So what's going on? Just one of those weird statistical quirks? Or something more significant?

Mouriniho puts a lot of emphasis on not making mistakes and taking advantage of the oppositions. Defensively he seems to have given up on trying to force errors. I think he feels if you give the opposition enough rope they will hang themselve, so we let the opposition have the ball and try and take advantage of the turnover once its cleared by the back 4

This is an idea that works as long as the opposition hand you the ball. Tottenham made no mistakes so Tottenham beat us. Arsenal gave us ball so we beat them.

 

[Ashley R1+O]

I wonder how many times we complete successful dribbles are and their average length also, can you find these stats? You've come up with some great stats @Pogue Mahone it really is fascinating.

 

[whatwha]

Starting to wish I hadn't stumbled across the PL club stats thingy.

Check this shit out. The clubs whose keepers have made the most saves this season.

Spoiler: Yikes

1. Swansea City 96
2. Manchester United 85
3. Stoke City 85
4. Brighton and Hove Albion 81
5. Crystal Palace 81
6. Everton 81
7. Leicester City 78
8. Burnley 77
9. Southampton 77
10. Newcastle United 75
11. AFC Bournemouth 73
12. West Ham United 71
13. Watford 68
14. Huddersfield Town 67
15. West Bromwich Albion 64
16. Arsenal 59
17. Tottenham Hotspur 55
18. Chelsea 50
19. Manchester City 41
20. Liverpool 40

FFS!

Spoiler: Last season

1.Sunderland 176
2. Burnley 151
3. Hull City 137
4. Leicester City 131
5. Stoke City 127
6. Arsenal 124
7. AFC Bournemouth 123
8. Swansea City 121
9. Watford 121
10. Middlesbrough 117
11. West Ham United 117
12. West Bromwich Albion 116
13. Crystal Palace 108
14. Everton 96
15. Manchester United 85
16. Tottenham Hotspur 85
17. Southampton 76
18. Liverpool 73
19. Chelsea 69
20. Manchester City 64

We need to not concede another shot on target between now and the end of the season in order to protect the goal as well as we did in 2016/17. Hard not to conclude there's a link between us making much fewer tackles than last season and our goal being peppered with much more shots...

Maybe Matic isn't as great a DM as we'd like to think.

 

[Gary_Walsh_Nou_Camp_Hell]

Lack of desire in the team. Lazy cnuts

 

[Class of 63]

There's only one stat that matters.

 

[Theonas]

To avoid living in fear in case we get the ball.

 

[SCP]

Check this shit out. The clubs whose keepers have made the most saves this season.

Unfortunately coming after Swansea and looking to the other top 5 teams, this relates with everything I said about Mou football concepts being, well how do I say this being polite, maybe a bit outdated?

Problem is fans just look at football based on numbers and money spent, then you check this and you find you won at Arsenal and probably Arsenal should have won that match rather easily, if not for their chaotic defensive organization.

 

[POF]

Why do they make so few tackles? Must be because they are world class (if the "How good was Rio" thread is anything to go by).

 

[Kraftwerker]

Why do they make so few tackles? Must be because they are world class (if the "How good was Rio" thread is anything to go by).

Yeah, but your whole team can’t be like that. Imperious game readers with the ability to intercept bullets.

The passiveness in our game was infuriating against Spurs.

I’m intrigued to see how we do in Europe where a more passive style can work. But also part of me expects an early exit given our big game away shit shows.

 

[Rake]

Our DM doesn't tackle so what is to be expected from the rest of the team? A while ago i brought up the point that Matic almost never dives into tackles even when there is a good opportunity to do so. Of course the answer was "Well he is just too good and doesn't have to" which is absolute bullocks.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Our DM doesn't tackle so what is to be expected from the rest of the team? A while ago i brought up the point that Matic almost never dives into tackles even when there is a good opportunity to do so. Of course the answer was "Well he is just too good and doesn't have to" which is absolute bullocks.

He makes more tackles than anyone else in the team. By a margin. Read the OP.

 

[BluesJr]

Very damning stats. Until we join the party and press we’ll not come close to major success.

 

[Rake]

He makes more tackles than anyone else in the team. By a margin. Read the OP.

By tackle i mean a sliding tackle not a standing one. I can't recall even one time where he made a sliding tackle to win the ball or a 50/50 situation.

 

[lysglimt]

Our pressing is simply not good enough, and when we do press - we don't do it as a team.

If we press with 3 attacking players without moving the midfielders further up the pitch (and defenders) - you can easily play your way through our front 3 and their midfielders will have lots of space.

The only match I can recall where we really put pressure on the opponents defenders - was the first 20-25 minutes away at Arsenal...and I guess that worked out quite ok!

 

[Garethw]

Very damning stats. Until we join the party and press we’ll not come close to major success.

We don’t press because the manager doesn’t want us to. It’s all part of a tactical master plan that non of us can see or make sense of.

 

[Stacks]

we have no fight. Its why when we lose, we don't lose well as it looks like we aren't trying. Very little combativeness in this side.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

What agenda would that be?

We’re averaging two tackles per game below Spurs and City fwiw. And that’s without the context of % possession. I’m guessing - but need to check - that both teams have better possession than we do, hence less opportunities to tackle.

I am not sure what the value of these stats are. Ultimately if the top 10 of that list are either in the relegation zone, fighting relegation, out of the top 4 or behind us. What is it we should be trying to emulate?

A tackle by definition means you have not got the ball. Teams that have high tackle rate means they are often trying to get the ball back because they are either not good enough to keep it or have high turnover. This is one of the reasons why pool concede so many goals as they lose the ball allot and have to try and win it back which is draining and leaves them fatigued at the end of the game which is why they concede so many late goals and lose from winning positions. They play a high risk all or nothing game mostly.

I think the main indicator is the quality of the teams in the top of that list. Their possession rates are low and their overall quality is low.

 

[BluesJr]

We don’t press because the manager doesn’t want us to. It’s all part of a tactical master plan that non of us can see or make sense of.

It’s like he refuses to accept reality.

 

[BusbyMalone]

Not surprised to see us up there in the shots conceded table - we allow teams to play. Curiously, this isn't necessarily specific to Mourinho.
For as long as i've been watching United, they do have a tendency to allow teams to play.

But just commenting on this season and last, we do play a very passive game of football. We sit deep as opposed to pressing, and often wait for our opponents to make mistakes as opposed to pressing them into one. This approach will often yield a lot more shots against you. That Arsenal game at the Emirates probably makes up half of those numbers.

 

[Foxbatt]

United was never a pressing team. Not even under SAF. I is that now other teams have very good players and can afford to buy them while we stood and let our team be run down.

 

[OldSchoolManc]

The reason we make less tackles is because we get more fouls called when we do tackle. Wether it’s a good tackle or not. Kinda discourages you.

 

[Henrik Larsson]

It's an interesting question, and I'm not sure why we made so few tackles. I don't think this is planned by Mourinho or that this is what he wants. For comparison, I do think there is a whole big master plan behind the fact that we cover less ground than pretty much every other team in the league (and I can see some logic in implementing such a strategy).




1:45 and onwards, Mourinho is putting a lot of emphasis on how McTominay was giving us "the desire to recover the ball", which implies it's something he felt we lacked. The stats massively back this up.

What's also interesting is that we've currently conceded the least amount of goals in the league again, though the difference with other teams is very marginal. But it's definitely an impressive defensive statistic to me. Last year we had the second best defense in the league at this time, with Spurs conceding even less goals than us after 25 games.