why do we gamble on Dutch league players but not efl championship players?

[Lee565]

Considering the money we have wasted on players from the Dutch league Antony, malacia and beek, why do we not gamble in the same with efl championship players when they would likely cost less and the evidence is there that you get a better success rate from the championship than the dutch league?

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Considering the money we have wasted on players from the Dutch league Antony, malacia and beek, why do we not gamble in the same with efl championship players when they would likely cost less and the evidence is there that you get a better success rate from the championship than the dutch league?

Our previous rubbish recruitment team and set up. It's that simple.

 

[Samid]

We tried but that player got more ridiculed by the fans than the Dutch league equivalent that cost 4x more.

 

[Gavinb33]

Absolute snobbery imo, if you look at one of the strikers that will be sought after this summer he was available for £25 million last summer and now talk of £80+ million I'd argue he'd have been a better fit than Hojlund as well

 

[Ish]

Considering the money we have wasted on players from the Dutch league Antony, malacia and beek, why do we not gamble in the same with efl championship players when they would likely cost less and the evidence is there that you get a better success rate from the championship than the dutch league?

Yeah, I guess it's mostly down to the cluelessness of the previous regime and their "commercial" transfer strategy in trying to sign some big names for sponsors etc.

Some really excellent players who have stepped up from the Championship. Toney was highly rated on here the season before they got promoted, Bowen was an excellent signing for West Ham, nothing needs to be said about Bellingham (albeit every big club was basically after his signature)...and i'm sure plenty more.

We've also not signed any/many players from other prem teams in recent years. There's been a couple of bargains in relegated teams (Tielemans, Livramento, Barnes etc.). Some very good younger players who have moved (Gordon, Palmer etc.) etc.

Some of them would/could have definitely been an upgrade on what we ended up signing plus much lower fees/wages in most cases.

 

[Stadjer]

Antony and van de Beek werent gambles. They were too expensive to be considered gambles and played good games in the CL. They are failed big money signings.

Malacia was a bit of a gamble and he did well in a fair amount of games. The injury from this season is just bad luck.

 

[Raw]

We've gambled on Eredivisie players three times recently, not like it's something we always do.

Donny had a very good season in 18-19, but looked like we bought him without any plan of what to do with him. Ole certainly didn't want him.
Malacia looked like decent backup before getting a horrible injury.
Antony was the result of putting too much trust in the manager and monumentally fecking up negotiations and/or not having any backup options.

Basically boils down to inept management, as always.

I'm sure we probably do look at Championship players but we always like to go for the big names or do whatever the manager wants.

 

[Fallon d'Floor]

We've tried it a few times. The EFL in general.

It didn't really work out for us.

Wilfried Zaha
Nick Powell
Dan James
Nathan Bishop

There are some young talents out there. Adam Wharton was a very good signing by Palace.

 

[Stadjer]

We've tried it a few times. The EFL in general.

It didn't really work out for us.

Wilfried Zaha
Nick Powell
Dan James
Nathan Bishop

There are some young talents out there. Adam Wharton was a very good signing by Palace.

James was fine. Had some moments and sold with a profit. That is a good outcome.

 

[The Hilton]

The premise of the thread is silly, there doesn't need to be an either/or distinction here. There are players from the Dutch league that go on to great things, we've just been signing the wrong ones.

Players from the Dutch league and from the Championship could potentially be good enough to play for us, but both leagues have a gulf in quality to the PL that means players that excel there are far from guaranteed to excel in the PL.

 

[Baxquux]

Yeah, I think with Wilcox coming in and his experiences at Southampton (as well as City young loan players/sales to Champ clubs etc prior to that), the club might be more open. Been linked with Hackney at Middlesbrough. Looked good 1st leg against Chelsea, but I'm not sure how much of a value-add he'd be overall -maybe regular EFL watchers can comment more. I saw Wharton play a couple of times for Blackburn and for the mooted price, thought he was someone we should be in for at least as a squad player, unless club had real confidence about u18s/u23s ready to step up. Better technically and in football smarts than McT, even at 20, and more mobile than most of the United midfield. There are normally 2-3 Championship players with properly visible potential, even if they don't all become Bellingham. Also been linked with Gray at Leeds, as a kind of proto-Lahm (fll-back to DM), if they don't get promoted but the issue might be genuine club attachment and rivalry towards United

 

[Lash]

We've tried it a few times. The EFL in general.

It didn't really work out for us.

Wilfried Zaha
Nick Powell
Dan James
Nathan Bishop

There are some young talents out there. Adam Wharton was a very good signing by Palace.

Also, are there many examples of true championship players going straight to massive clubs and dealing with the pressure? Bar Bellingham. I get the clamour for Wharton now, but it wouldn't exactly be the same kind of move. There's 0 pressure playing for Palace, comparatively speaking.

 

[flappyjay]

James was fine. Had some moments and sold with a profit. That is a good outcome.

Had Zaha been handled with care we would have gotten a profit for him too but we did that fire sale where even chicharito was sold below market value.

 

[Baxquux]

Had Zaha been handled with care we would have gotten a profit for him too but we did that fire sale where even chicharito was sold below market value.

The Zaha thing was gross negligence. Young player needs some time to adapt to new surroundings and clashes with a boss himself exposed in swift course as out of his depth, and instead of giving it time and opportunity to develop under replacement manager he's sold back for pennies on the dollar.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Also, are there many examples of true championship players going straight to massive clubs and dealing with the pressure? Bar Bellingham. I get the clamour for Wharton now, but it wouldn't exactly be the same kind of move. There's 0 pressure playing for Palace, comparatively speaking.

Delle Alli pre fall was beyond a success for tottenham.

 

[Solius]

Yeah it's odd. As someone already said, Gyokeres is now being quoted at a crazy price and he played for Coventry last season.

There's been Ivan Toney, Dele Alli, James Maddison, John Stones, Bellingham, Olise, Eze, Andrew Robertson, etc..

 

[Lash]

Delle Alli pre fall was beyond a success for tottenham.

Ah yes, although I could be cheeky and say Spurs weren't a massive club, but point well made.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Ah yes, although I could be cheeky and say Spurs weren't a massive club, but point well made.

You still have a point though. The Dele example was more of Simone moving straight from the lower reaches and thriving at EPL and European level.

As per your point, I think Lee Sharpe might be the last guy to move from the EFL to become a super star in a top team. I could be wrong though.

 

[Ekeke]

We have gone for a few but not many.

I'd suggest Zaha was at least partly a casualty of the manager merry go round from Sir Alex leaving to Moyes one season and then LVG coming in. The manager who wanted him and saw great potential in him left, a manager came in and struggled to live up to good expectations after the previous manager and wasnt really in a position to play youngsters he just had to try and get points because he was being compared to Sir Alex... and then LVG came in and there was a lot of change. Zaha and Nani were both tried as forwards with a front 2 in preseason and both were moved on.

James was simply a bad pick. He had speed but that was it. There are young championship players who have technique and end product. There are many examples but some of the big ones from this season - Maddison, Watkins, Eze, Olise, Bellingham, Bowen and the list goes on. There are plenty of players who came from the dutch league too.

The answer is Erik Ten Hag knows the dutch league. So we buy from there. I dont get much of a feeling that ETH changes depends on how things are going. I get the impression he sticks with what he thinks he knows. So I'd expect us to continue signing players from the dutch league with him here and there are some good ones, so hopefully we get players like Kudus and Van Dijk who were both signed from that league and have proven their quality.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

..... I dont get much of a feeling that ETH changes depends on how things are going. ....

not a chance. He will take who his technical director and DOF recommend based on any long term game model they agree on, if he stays. He pretty much did the same at Ajax.

 

[T00lsh3d]

We can turn players horrible regardless of which league they previously played in

 

[JPRouve]

Is there any evidence that the success rate is better? Also as others have said we don't gamble on Eredivisie players and it's clearly not a policy that we follow.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

We don't generally "gamble" on Eredivisie players.

What we do is to allow the "manager" to bring in players he knows - and pay ludicrous amounts of money for those players.

 

[youngrell]

We did try for Bale, Ramsey and Bellingham who all became very good to elite players, so it’s not like we are adverse to looking in that direction.

What we often don’t have is the luxury to develop some of these players to get to the level we see later on. Toney, Watkins, Vardy, players like that would have to hit the ground running to make it here and would be unlikely to get the same amount of minutes to develop into what they did. There is undoubtedly talent there to be found though.

 

[JJ12]

We've done both over the years, they didn't really work.

But it's not about this league or that league - it's about the people who identify talent, there's talent in both leagues, it's just about signing the right ones.

 

[Baxquux]

We did try for Bale, Ramsey and Bellingham who all became very good to elite players, so it’s not like we are adverse to looking in that direction.

What we often don’t have is the luxury to develop some of these players to get to the level we see later on. Toney, Watkins, Vardy, players like that would have to hit the ground running to make it here and would be unlikely to get the same amount of minutes to develop into what they did. There is undoubtedly talent there to be found though.

The Bale one in particular was ...weird. Didn't Southampton sell him to Tottenham for 5m but turn down an offer closer to 10m from us not long before? It wouldn't be the first time that clubs randomly decided not to sell to United even on better terms than they ended up getting (there was the notorious one back in the day where Newcastle turned down a higher bid for Beardsley from United , saying they wouldn't sell for 3m, then flogged him shortly after to Liverpool for 1.8)

The pressure is less intense for the moment to win leagues, given where things have fallen to, so paradoxically this should help with recruiting some of the better young (domestic, and even international to an extent) players, because of better chances of getting into the team and not being expected to win every game: there are tradeoffs, of course, but I'd be happy to have a couple of years at least of (proper) rebuilding, bringing in and through younger players, but not with a manager who's using 'process' to bluff away their own bad ideas and dubious coaching practices.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

James was fine. Had some moments and sold with a profit. That is a good outcome.

And that’s why we shouldn’t be scared about Championship players or younger/semi-proven players in some foreign leagues.

I don’t want to use all our transfer budget on £20m deals but a couple with good scouting/assessment should either work and save us money OR we sell and maybe get our money back, but not lose too much.

Theres too many PL clubs who are finding these players and giving them a chance. Then selling them for double/treble the fee… mainly to us or Chelsea it seems.

 

[Flying high]

We can turn players horrible regardless of which league they previously played in

I think largely because we buy one for a position when we're in dire need and he has to succeed immediately.

We need CBs this year, it could quite easily be as many as 3. They obviously can't all be big names and in many ways it would be better if none of them are. That takes the pressure away from them and should, in thoery at least, give us the chance of finding a gem as well as the obligatory dud that we likely need to sell in a year or 2.

 

[jesperjaap]

Muhren, Stam, indirectly Van Persie, Van Nistelrooy.....some of our best players have come from there...but personally dont think we have concentrated on players froma partiular league, just been a couple more like now with the managers nationality.

We have signed players from the championship,not fo a while, butIant think of any that have worked out.

Personally Idont know why we haven utilised the French league whenwe have had Cantona and Evra andall the great players inthe premiership have come from there. Again this summer I think there are some brilliant deals to be had there...bar youtubers,not seeing us linked to any.....if Ineos go out and spend millionson the likes of Braitwaite and Onana....I give up

 

[youngrell]

The Bale one in particular was ...weird. Didn't Southampton sell him to Tottenham for 5m but turn down an offer closer to 10m from us not long before? It wouldn't be the first time that clubs randomly decided not to sell to United even on better terms than they ended up getting (there was the notorious one back in the day where Newcastle turned down a higher bid for Beardsley from United , saying they wouldn't sell for 3m, then flogged him shortly after to Liverpool for 1.8)

The pressure is less intense for the moment to win leagues, given where things have fallen to, so paradoxically this should help with recruiting some of the better young (domestic, and even international to an extent) players, because of better chances of getting into the team and not being expected to win every game: there are tradeoffs, of course, but I'd be happy to have a couple of years at least of (proper) rebuilding, bringing in and through younger players, but not with a manager who's using 'process' to bluff away their own bad ideas and dubious coaching practices.

I believe Bale made the decision himself to join Spurs as he was more likely to get regular game time.

Agree with your second paragraph, it’s not been the case in the past but certainly something we could do now. The pressure of getting in ready made stars has set us back a tonne over the last decade.

 

[aeh1991]

Leif Davis, fullback of Ipswich who scored 21 assists (although I guess he'll stay for another season to play in the EPL).

Hayden Hackney, DM/CM talent of Middlesbrough.

Archie Gray, DM of Leeds (huge talent but probably unlikely to get due to the rivalry).

Isaahaku Fatawu, RW of Leeds (on loan from Sporting)

These players are worth scouting imo

 

[daba]

Leif Davis, fullback of Ipswich who scored 21 assists (although I guess he'll stay for another season to play in the EPL).

Hayden Hackney, DM/CM talent of Middlesbrough.

Archie Gray, DM of Leeds (huge talent but probably unlikely to get due to the rivalry).

Isaahaku Fatawu, RW of Leeds (on loan from Sporting)

These players are worth scouting imo

Archie Gray is the one and is exactly what we need as a long-term Mainoo partner but if he is allowed to leave I struggle to see him here. Annoyingly can see him going City as a long term Rodri replacement….

 

[aeh1991]

Archie Gray is the one and is exactly what we need as a long-term Mainoo partner but if he is allowed to leave I struggle to see him here. Annoyingly can see him going City as a long term Rodri replacement….

Would be the worst case scenario..

 

[Sarni]

Because we have a manager that came from Eredivisie and wants to work with players he's familiar with.

 

[Born2Lose]

Because we give managers far too much power, and haven't learn that there'll never be another SAF.

Hopefully, with INEOS, this is what we'll be moving too.

 

[Borys]

We should gamble on players with high potential. I don't care if they are from Holland, England 2nd division or any other place.

We have not signed any player with high potential in recent years. This was what I thought of Antony and Hojlund when we signed them and how I still feel. Hojlund had actually a better season than I expected and it's still a bit meh.

Our high potential players are academy graduates at the moment.

 

[SER19]

Yeah it's odd. As someone already said, Gyokeres is now being quoted at a crazy price and he played for Coventry last season.

There's been Ivan Toney, Dele Alli, James Maddison, John Stones, Bellingham, Olise, Eze, Andrew Robertson, etc..

Ollie Watkins too,

there's some fantastic talent around. Maybe not always to come in and start and improve the team, but you could sign a very good player with potential, and a good attitude, and have them in the squad instead of some of the older or injury prone disasters.

 

[daba]

We should gamble on players with high potential. I don't care if they are from Holland, England 2nd division or any other place.

We have not signed any player with high potential in recent years. This was what I thought of Antony and Hojlund when we signed them and how I still feel. Hojlund had actually a better season than I expected and it's still a bit meh.

Our high potential players are academy graduates at the moment.

Sorry but how is Hojlund not high potential.

Name two or even one other u21 no. 9 that has had a better season than him in Europes top 6 or 7 leagues? He’s also had to endure playing in our shambles of a system too.

I accept he’s not a low fee low risk signing but to say he’s not high potential is absurd. Remind me, what were Kane and Lewandowski doing at his age?

 

[Sassy Colin]

James was fine. Had some moments and sold with a profit. That is a good outcome.

He was rubbish and continues to be so. We got out of jail free with that sale.

 

[DJ_21]

Ye we’d find some better players in England lower leagues. Eze came from QPR. Olise from Reading. David brooks half decent player. I’d even gamble on jack Clarke from Sunderland.