Why can't we start a movement to get rid of diving?

Brwned

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Every football fan thinks it's embarrassing. There must be at least 1 billion United fans. 18m of them follow United on Twitter.

Can't we get something started on social media which captivates enough fans to shine a spotlight on it, and get rid of the ridiculous acts in every single game?

The rules haven't helped so maybe a visible change in perceptions will? Why did it even creep into football when it didn't in other contact sports?
 
Is it too nuanced to police though? If a player is in the penalty box and feels contact from and opposing player, who didn't get the ball, is he not entitled to go down? If he doesn't he probably won't get a penalty.
 
It's not my experience that every football fan thinks it's embarrassing. It might have been at one time, possibly before I was born and the number of people who view it as clever, showing a desire to win, justifiable, part of the game or a minor annoyance at the very worst has increased a lot in my lifetime.

Protesting about it can make you the old fuddy duddy who isn't with it.

I think it's in or started to come into basketball at one point. I believe they call it flopping stateside in the NBA.
 
Brwned said:
The rules haven't helped so maybe a visible change in perceptions will? Why did it even creep into football when it didn't in other contact sports?
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Diving is an issue in basketball, but they call it “flopping.” There’s also diving in ice hockey (aka embellishment) which can lead to a two minute minor penalty. Offenders in both sports can be subject to further punishment/fines by the league (at least in the NBA and NHL). Diving in football probably influences the game much more though, especially if it results in a penalty kick, but every sport has people trying to gain an edge in one way or another.
 
VAR is putting a stop to diving for a good part already. Neymar for instance will never get a penalty again without the ref consulting VAR.
 
Refs just have to come together and decide to stop giving 'soft' fouls. If the contact is not enough to bring you down or seriously impede you it shouldn't be whistled
 
This has been discussed to death. Refs don't award penalties for simple fouls. They want to see a fall.
 
With the inclusion of VAR it should be very easy to prevent diving in theory. Use those guys or just create a separate group of people that would only watch for diving, let them study every contact and if they need 5 minutes to determine if its a dive or not let them - play continues on the pitch and ref can stop the play or sanction them at first stop of play after he receives information. With the inclusion of VAR for diving id give a red card for it.
 
I have thought about this for a while, and think there should be some sort of retroactive punishment for diving, even if it has been given in the game, and all that. Obviously it has to be a clear dive, ie. no touch, a brush of the shoulder which leads to rolling and crying on the ground etc. (think David Luiz vs us, Neymar in any game he's ever played)

I suggest game bans as punishment. First offense = 1 game. Second offence = 2 games. Third offense = 4 games. Fourth offense = 8 games and so on. Yes this is very harsh, but actually making clubs suffer is an efficient way for them to actually clean up their act and tell their players to get their shit together. Imagine if you'd been penalized for diving twice and as such you've already been banned for 3 games, you really don't want to impose another 4 games on your team would you? And a further 8 games after that, basically ending up spending close to 1/3 of a season banned for diving/simulating.
 
Should've said diving & feigning injury...
 
Barnslig said:
I have thought about this for a while, and think there should be some sort of retroactive punishment for diving, even if it has been given in the game, and all that. Obviously it has to be a clear dive, ie. no touch, a brush of the shoulder which leads to rolling and crying on the ground etc. (think David Luiz vs us, Neymar in any game he's ever played)

I suggest game bans as punishment. First offense = 1 game. Second offence = 2 games. Third offense = 4 games. Fourth offense = 8 games and so on. Yes this is very harsh, but actually making clubs suffer is an efficient way for them to actually clean up their act and tell their players to get their shit together. Imagine if you'd been penalized for diving twice and as such you've already been banned for 3 games, you really don't want to impose another 4 games on your team would you? And a further 8 games after that, basically ending up spending close to 1/3 of a season banned for diving/simulating.
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And then you -1 game added to your name, every time you get genuinely fouled in the box and you fall, but the ref waves that away. And also you get -2 games the next time it happens and -4 if you get a yellow card for simulation, but it was genuine foul.
 
Šjor Bepo said:
With the inclusion of VAR it should be very easy to prevent diving in theory. Use those guys or just create a separate group of people that would only watch for diving, let them study every contact and if they need 5 minutes to determine if its a dive or not let them - play continues on the pitch and ref can stop the play or sanction them at first stop of play after he receives information. With the inclusion of VAR for diving id give a red card for it.
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Part of the issue with this is if either during this 5 minute window or before the first stop of play, the guilty player makes a game changing contribution - scores a goal (you could say it’s taken away), makes an assist or even just has a role in the goal, makes a goal like clearance or gets fouled leading to a sending off. All of this could happen when he shouldn’t have even been on the pitch. It can only really be dealt with in the moment and it would be a nightmare for VAR to stringently check every single foul for diving.
 
I've seen improvements in La Liga with the introduction of VAR. I've also been watching Serie A this year and the refs seem to have a better hang of it than the English ones. It might just be anecdotal but the PL and CL feel worse than Spain and Italy in the sense of players getting something from diving. I do see Suarez rolling around every Barca match but he rarely gets anything if he isn't actually fouled and he can make it seem worse than it was, it won't affect the ref's decision like it used to.

Personally I dislike it more the little things players do to annoy the opponent by wasting time and it could all go away immediately if football took up one of the most effective rules of handball. As soon as you hear the whistle you leave the ball. If you kick it "seemingly" arbitrarily after the whistle have gone you're breaking the rules and you get carded. Napoli were doing it a lot against Paris in the final minutes. Huddersfield did it a lot yesterday against Fulham. One player kicked the ball away and the ref told him to cut it out instead of carding him right away. A minute later he did it again and got a yellow. Now what was the warning for exactly?

It's just one of those relics of football rules that don't get changed. I mean how long ago was it that Wenger started mentioning video refereeing and people just thought he was eccentric? It's still not implemented in England except in the cups where we can clearly see that the refs can't handle it because they haven't got any training. Also a big reason why none of them were at the WC last summer which is frankly embarrassing for English football.

As for other sports, it's there. In basketball players don't try to feign injury as much because why would they, it's not really a contact sport. They do fake that they were fouled. In handball you see it a lot from the same nations that do it in football, even more prominent with the Balkan teams (I'm looking at you Croatia). Anything to get ahead. American football doesn't really allow it because the sport is so robotic in that everyone follows set guideline on every play. There's also high risk in form penalties so there's really no point doing it. Similar in hockey, why would you do it there? Wouldn't make sense. But in sports with contact where you have something to gain from it, it will happen.
 
This won't go down well...
 
The Don said:
Is it too nuanced to police though? If a player is in the penalty box and feels contact from and opposing player, who didn't get the ball, is he not entitled to go down? If he doesn't he probably won't get a penalty.
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Yeah, I agree it's hard to police during the game. It would work if there is some kind of panel review that happens for each game. Even then it's pretty hard to say for sure. If there is contact, was it enough contact for the player to go down? It's a fine line.

One part of the problem for me is that players don't get rewarded much for doing the right thing.
 
Himannv said:
Yeah, I agree it's hard to police during the game. It would work if there is some kind of panel review that happens for each game. Even then it's pretty hard to say for sure. If there is contact, was it enough contact for the player to go down? It's a fine line.

One part of the problem for me is that players don't get rewarded much for doing the right thing.
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Exactly.
 
I’ve never understood why diving takes the brunt way ahead of all other forms of cheating. It’s not different from deliberately fouling somebody. Except that is more ‘manly’.
 
acnumber9 said:
I’ve never understood why diving takes the brunt way ahead of all other forms of cheating. It’s not different from deliberately fouling somebody. Except that is more ‘manly’.
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This is a fair point, but I personally don't care at all about the manliness of the sport. I care about diving because it's such an apparent I'll in football you don't see elsewhere.

The reality is most of the other forms of cheating are present in other sports, if they're possible. Cheating is here to stay. Diving is a potentially useful "dark art" in any contact sport, but it exists in almost no other. So it feels like a diving-free sport is entirely possible if we all agree.

Also, for some of the other problems - e.g. timewasting - there's a cut-and-dry rule we can introduce to solve it, if the authorities want to. Whereas for diving, the rules don't seem to have made any real difference. Attitudes are the difference.
 
As stated earlier in this thread VAR is probably the best way to counteract diving.
Next thing that needs to be addressed is the time-wasting, which frustrates me personally more than diving.
There should be a strict responsibility to not touch the ball after the referees whistle. And to just leave it where it is at once if you are on the ball.
Punishable by a yellow card.
This actually works very well in handball for you who are acquinted with that game. It irritates the hell of me to see a player commit a foul, pick up the ball, taptoe backwards 20 yards at minimum speed and then throw the ball 10 yards in the air to a place 10 yards back from where the foul was committed; while all Liverpool (oops) players get back in defensive positions.
That pisses me off more than diving to be honest.
 
Diving is a symptom of a problem, not the problem itself.

When referee's give fouls equally to players who stay on their feet vs players who fling themselves to the ground, the motivation to dive will dissipate and become a more strictly punishable exception.

At the moment though I find myself chastising players for not going down in the box just as frequently as chastising them for going down too easily. I recall Rashford a few weeks ago staying on his feet when he was clearly fouled in the box. No pundits mentioned it, no journalists mentioned it and very few people on here even mentioned it. It was absolutely a foul and penalty though as it severely knocked him off balance which prejudiced his chance of scoring. Likewise if a penalty was given I believe pundits would have criticised the ref and said there "wasn't enough" contact.

It's the ingrained perception that a penalty should only be given if the player falls to the groung that is the issue,
 
acnumber9 said:
I’ve never understood why diving takes the brunt way ahead of all other forms of cheating. It’s not different from deliberately fouling somebody. Except that is more ‘manly’.
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I think it's the deception element. I know it rankles me because of that.

Deliberately fouling someone is wrong, but it's obvious you've done it and it's a case of 'fair cop, gov' as the ref punishes the player or the team.

Diving, well it's sneaky and you're trying to get away with something. You're also trying to take of advantage of someone who did absolutely nothing wrong and maybe even get an innocent party punished. It's less honourable to me.

Tales of con men ripping off vulnerable elderly people absolutely boil my piss for similar sorts of reasons. I'd rather a car thief or shoplifter who just brazenly took what they wanted any day of the week.
 
acnumber9 said:
I’ve never understood why diving takes the brunt way ahead of all other forms of cheating. It’s not different from deliberately fouling somebody. Except that is more ‘manly’.
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My favorite diver was Gary Neville, who would always get in front of the forward running on goal and then fall over. Got the call almost every time. Would VAR also retrospectively fix that? Would the goal that didn't happen be awarded post game?

No one ever complains about what the defenders do....dive, push, poke, prod, slash, kick. Why wouldn't all these moves be reviewed after the game?
 
Chipper said:
I think it's the deception element. I know it rankles me because of that.

Deliberately fouling someone is wrong, but it's obvious you've done it and it's a case of 'fair cop, gov' as the ref punishes the player or the team.

Diving, well it's sneaky and you're trying to get away with something. You're also trying to take of advantage of someone who did absolutely nothing wrong and maybe even get an innocent party punished. It's less honourable to me.

Tales of con men ripping off vulnerable elderly people absolutely boil my piss for similar sorts of reasons. I'd rather a car thief or shoplifter who just brazenly took what they wanted any day of the week.
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I can understand that to an extent. Being ruthlessly hacked down to stop a counter attack doesn’t annoy me any less when it happens though. How often is a yellow card much of a punishment though? They take the risk because it’s worth it.
 
Brwned said:
Every football fan thinks it's embarrassing. There must be at least 1 billion United fans. 18m of them follow United on Twitter.

Can't we get something started on social media which captivates enough fans to shine a spotlight on it, and get rid of the ridiculous acts in every single game?

The rules haven't helped so maybe a visible change in perceptions will? Why did it even creep into football when it didn't in other contact sports?
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No you have to dive to get any decisions. Until the refs change the way the make decisions diving should be allowed.
 
fergieisold said:
No you have to dive to get any decisions. Until the refs change the way the make decisions diving should be allowed.
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How do you think people got decisions before diving became widespread? It hasn't always been that way. We know that for certain because the video footage doesn't lie. So unless you think refs were more lenient then...it isn't an insurmountable problem.
 
This has been discussed to death but, refs rarely reward players that stay on their feet, defenders dive even more than attackers and way too many defenders lazily stick their leg out when defending.
 
Diving will always be part of the game and that will never change. Players will always play for a foul and I have no problem with it. And it's not going to change with the way that refs call it. If a player doesn't go down the ref rarely calls it even if he is fouled. For me, the biggest problem in the game isn't the diving. It's the faking of injuries. That's where the real embarrassment comes in for me. One poster mentioned other sports. One thing that I wish football would pick up on is a rule that hockey has for diving. For example, in hockey if you hook a guy and he takes a dive, the ref will give the 2 minute hooking penalty but also give a 2 minute penalty for "unsportsmanlike conduct" to the player who took a dive. Football should do this too. Give the free kick for the foul, but also a yellow card to the player who embelished the foul...
 
Diving is part of football, a dirty part yes but a part of it. No one will ever be able to stop it being done, no matter how many punishment put for divers it'll still happen.
 
el3mel said:
Diving is part of football, a dirty part yes but a part of it. No one will ever be able to stop it being done, no matter how many punishment put for divers it'll still happen.
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Eh? Retrospective banning could easily fix it. Sin binning during games might work. Not many attempts have been made to fix this problem.
 
Stick said:
Eh? Retrospective banning could easily fix it. Sin binning during games might work. Not many attempts have been made to fix this problem.
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It won't because not all divers throw themselves in the air without someone near them. Most of them wait till the defender make a slight contact with their bodies then throw themselves, hence you won't really prove them to be guilty for a long ban, they'll say the defender makes a contact with them and they fall due to it, no ? it'll be the ref's problem for announcing the pen. PL had this 3 game ban for divers or something and so far, it failed miserably.
 
el3mel said:
It won't because not all divers throw themselves in the air without someone near them. Most of them wait till the defender make a slight contact with their bodies then throw themselves, hence you won't really prove them to be guilty for a long ban, they'll say the defender makes a contact with them and they fall due to it, no ? it'll be the ref's problem for announcing the pen. PL had this 3 game ban for divers or something and so far, it failed miserably.
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Contact is not a foul in football though. That is something else. If you have the correct rules in place and enforce them with VAR you can improve this situation. To do nothing and accept it as part of the game is completely wrong for me.
 
You can start with the obvious playacting, such as players rolling round on the floor like they've died when they've just had a slight knock. You generally know when somebody is genuinely injured as they hardly move at all. I'd issue yellow cards almost instantly to anybody who either cries out in pain or makes even the slightest exaggerated movements on the floor, no exceptions. Also a yellow card if you're not back on your feet again inside 6 seconds.

It's easy to do. Just think in that situation, in real life, would I react the same. 99.9% of cases the answer would be a firm no.
 
SadlerMUFC said:
Diving will always be part of the game and that will never change. Players will always play for a foul and I have no problem with it. And it's not going to change with the way that refs call it. If a player doesn't go down the ref rarely calls it even if he is fouled. For me, the biggest problem in the game isn't the diving. It's the faking of injuries. That's where the real embarrassment comes in for me. One poster mentioned other sports. One thing that I wish football would pick up on is a rule that hockey has for diving. For example, in hockey if you hook a guy and he takes a dive, the ref will give the 2 minute hooking penalty but also give a 2 minute penalty for "unsportsmanlike conduct" to the player who took a dive. Football should do this too. Give the free kick for the foul, but also a yellow card to the player who embelished the foul...
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This is completely different to diving. Playing for a foul is like putting your body between a player ant the ball and making the player challenge through you to get the ball. That's a foul every time but it's not a dive.
 
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