Why are we avoiding signing world class players?

RashyForPM said:
Said world class player must also fit into the team, style of play and have the right personality to fit team dynamics. Sancho definitely fits these 3 traits (plays at RW, plays direct football, great lad and already mates with Rashford and the rest of our English players). Haaland is a better player than Sancho imo, but his agent is Raiola.

Looking back at our recent history of signing world class players (we’ll go with the past decade), I can make a list with far more failures than successes:

Major successes:
RvP
Zlatan (for one season)

Minor successes:
Cavani

Minor failures:
Kagawa
Mata
Pogba
Mkhitaryan (great EL season)

Major failures:
Di Maria
Falcao
Schweinsteiger
Lukaku

Again, as repetition because of how important it is in our recruitment, it depends on the entire profile of the player.
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I think we have a different conception of worldclass players. By worldclass I think a player thats top 3 or top 5 at most in his position. A player that would walk into any team in the world.

when you mention a player like Kawaga...damn I dont know what to say.

The only worldclass players that we’ve signed are RVP, Pogba and Di Maria. Judging by that we had an excellent return on RVP, a decent one on Pogba and a total failure in Di Maria.

Zlatan, Cavani, Falcao and Schweinsteiger while at their prime could very rightly be considered as worldclass they were clearly past his best when they came here.

Lukaku, Kawaga, Mata, Mhikitaryan and specially Kawaga do not belong in the worldclass category at all.
 
Skills said:
We're a bit of an awkward club. We're not as big as we think we are and as a club we can't really offer players much outside of money.
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We are. I live in Germany and have always come across a lot of local and foreign people and even in the years like 2004-2007 when I gave us no chance of winning the CL after our losses they were shocked as they saw us as favourites and I was thinking what the hell are they smoking. Nowadays obviously the club hasn’t won the league for 8 years so the perception is slightly different but the name of the club is still huge.
 
"Man United is the biggest club in the world" only when courting sponsors. Truth is we haven't been anywhere that in a sporting sense for over a decade. Players/agents know that.
 
Hound Dog said:
Did not seem to hurt Real when they signed Ronaldo Kaka Benzema and Alonso.

No idea why that is the case, but United just do not have that kind of pull. So many players that the club missed out on even during the glory years, it is unreal.

Could be a case of having the trophies but not the money then and having the money but not the trophies now. Really don't know.
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Real Madrid is the most successful club in the history of the game. They always compete, sure they had a dry spell of 5-6 years without getting on to the latest stages of UCL, but the history of the club and their proven ambition makes up for that.

We are a club that rates finishing at top 4 as sucess. Hardly a mentality that fits a worldclass player.
 
I remember Ferguson saying he had the chance to sign Brazilian Ronaldo and he turned him down. His reasoning was it would cost too much in wages and would destabilize the team.
 
united_99 said:
We are. I live in Germany and have always come across a lot of local and foreign people and even in the years like 2004-2007 when I gave us no chance of winning the CL after our losses they were shocked as they saw us as favourites and I was thinking what the hell are they smoking. Nowadays obviously the club hasn’t won the league for 8 years so the perception is slightly different but the name of the club is still huge.
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As I replied to this poster's comment, I think many people on here need to engage more with people from different parts of the world or travel more. That will give them an idea of how big a name Manchester United really is.
 
SAFMUTD said:
Real Madrid is the most successful club in the history of the game. They always compete, sure they had a dry spell of 5-6 years without getting on to the latest stages of UCL, but the history of the club and their proven ambition makes up for that.

We are a club that rates finishing at top 4 as sucess. Hardly a mentality that fits a worldclass player.
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You might remember there was a long long period under Fergie when we never finished outside top 3. How many world class players did we sign back then?
 
united_99 said:
You might remember there was a long long period under Fergie when we never finished outside top 3. How many world class players did we sign back then?
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Besides Veron I cant think of anyone, but the approach was different back then, how many world class players went into the premier league at all?

Also Sir Alex’s strategy was clearly different buying and developing top young talents. Can’t blame him since he was excellent at it.
 
TheReligion said:
Not sure Lukaku was a major failure and I don't think Mata should be on the list.
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At the time, Mata was a world class player frozen out by Mourinho. The season before, he had stats better than every AM bar Ozil at Madrid. I was delighted when we signed him.

Lukaku was definitely a major failure imo. First season, he scored loads of goals, granted, but the second season, woah, in a bad way. Performances were utterly dreadful under both Mourinho and Ole aside from that 3 game run, and it’s fair to say his attitude was (tangibly) the worst of any United player since Fergie left, and it’s fair to say we’ve had a few bad eggs amongst the good ones. There’s literally been no more reports of dressing room disharmony since he and Sanchez left. Coincidentally, they were best mates too.
 
SAFMUTD said:
I think we have a different conception of worldclass players. By worldclass I think a player thats top 3 or top 5 at most in his position. A player that would walk into any team in the world.

when you mention a player like Kawaga...damn I dont know what to say.

The only worldclass players that we’ve signed are RVP, Pogba and Di Maria. Judging by that we had an excellent return on RVP, a decent one on Pogba and a total failure in Di Maria.

Zlatan, Cavani, Falcao and Schweinsteiger while at their prime could very rightly be considered as worldclass they were clearly past his best when they came here.

Lukaku, Kawaga, Mata, Mhikitaryan and specially Kawaga do not belong in the worldclass category at all.
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Talking about big names only. Kagawa was pivotal for Dortmund in two title winning seasons. Otherwise, this thread wouldn’t be much fun :lol:

My definition of world class is that you must get in a world 11, so even stricter than yours. People always tell me that’s unfair, but it should be the hardest thing for any footballer to be considered world class. This includes being consistent all the way through. To me, Robertson is no longer a world class player, for example.
 
Cold hard truth that no one seem to want to admit is the real 'world class' players (think Neymar, Mbappe, Haaland) have options with the likes of Barca/Madrid etc. United, as big a club as we claim to be, have always played second fiddle to those clubs when it comes to signing top talent.

We do better in terms of taking young talent and developing them to be world class (CR7). Of course, CR7 also left at the first opportunity and spent his best years at Madrid himself. We are a big club, just that there are bigger clubs around that get the first dibs on top talent.

In short, we are not 'avoiding' anything. Its just real world class talent has many options and living in Manchester doesn't seem to be top of their priority list.
 
sullydnl said:
The idea that you'd count Pogba but not Bruno is something.

But no, I don't particularly care about making signings to show we're the "top dog", whatever that means. I just want us to make signings that build a team that wins things. If we can do that with lower key, less expensive signings then all the better.

It's when glaring needs don't get addressed or we botch entire transfer windows that I get irked, not when we don't sign the biggest names.
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He has a point. Even at Utd's pomp under SAF, even when we won things, we were never truly the best team in the world.

We got outplayed in each of the 5 champions league finals we played in the SAF era so we were very good but never truly dominant like Barca or Real have been. That happens when you pursue a policy of signing the best players in the world.

It's staggering that for a club of this stature there has been only one player to win the Ballon'dor (or whatever it is spelled) who has also played for utd. And that one player could not wait to pack his bags off to Madrid.
 
We're not backed by royalty or even people who could afford to buy us. We develop players and with these owners that's more and more the case - especially as these mega rich owners have destroyed the market and players are getting more and more vain or have dumb people speak for them. So who that plays for City, would be playing for United if they weren't backed by these people etc. Who from Chelsea would have ended up at United? In addition, we talk about world class but these players will join any big club for big money. They're all full of crap when it comes to ambition. I'll play for real madrid sure, for 200k a week. We also obviously for a long time had a wage budget. It' an artificial constraint so we missed out on say Batistuta because we were run within our means for a long time and we had a model of working.
 
Purchasing world class players in their prime is something only Madrid do continually, other top clubs go for mostly 'the next big thing' signings just look at Bayern it's majorly academy graduate: Alaba, Muller. Signings the best players within the league: Lewandoski, Goretzka, Kimmich, Gnabry, Neuer and young punts like Davies, you wouldn't see them going for an Mbappe yet they are successful both in Europe and dominant in their league.
 
Andycoleno9 said:
Not just now, even during Fergie we rarely went for best players in the world. Only Veron, Sanchez, Pogba and RVP can go in that category. And it is not that we don't have reputation and money. We just spend it on other players
Are you disappointed with that? My opinion that top players win you trophies. And we at this moment have only one (2 if you count Bruno) and he (Pogba) wants to go.
Meanwhile there are rumours how Mbappe will be available for 120mil this summer or free next summer. We are not a club who is even mentioned about that. Ramos will be free this summer and i doubt that we will go for him. Haaland rejected us because of Dortmund and now i don't think we will go in bidding war. If Kane will want out this summer, again i don't think that we will be serious contender in signing him.

I think that we must make some transfer statement this summer. To show that we are still top dog around.
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We're not still top dog and if you expect United to spend big this Summer you're delusion.
 
TheRedHearted said:
Ah the Di Maria myth. Di Maria had second most assists his first season with the club. Seems like a good transition to me.
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Not to mention Di Maria debacle should never have happened in the first place. Guy never wanted to be in Manchester, and he looked like it too. Miserable during his time here!
 
Hound Dog said:
Did not seem to hurt Real when they signed Ronaldo Kaka Benzema and Alonso.

No idea why that is the case, but United just do not have that kind of pull. So many players that the club missed out on even during the glory years, it is unreal.

Could be a case of having the trophies but not the money then and having the money but not the trophies now. Really don't know.
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It's a matter of policy.

Real built the Galactico brand coupled with their history of Champions league dominance, so they were clearly the biggest brand in football. You always knew, as a fam that real was certain to entertain, and their players were on a status akin to Hollywood A-listers.

United on the other hand seem to have pursued a domestic first policy for many years, building the team around British talent and espousing virtues such as character before flair.
 
Withnail said:
We're not still top dog and if you expect United to spend big this Summer you're delusion.
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Yeah, I have to say that some of the expectations in our fanbase are absolutely delusional.

People should be protesting and boycotting the owners if they don't like the current structure, investments and ambitions of the club. But since people can't be arsed to go the extra mile, we just have to readjust our view and get back to reality. The team is what it is and we might improve a bit in the summer, but I actually don't expect anything drastic. Next season will again be a top 4 battle, unless 4 or 5 players suddenly up their game and become consistently good every match.
 
I think for me the bigger worry is that we don't even have dibs on top English talent anymore. With Bayern Munich you know they are going to dominate the domestic talent for the most part and that has worked well for them. We used to be seen as the top club in england for english players. I don't think that's the case anymore. Players are chasing money and are happy to join City, Chelsea over United.
 
Hound Dog said:
Did not seem to hurt Real when they signed Ronaldo Kaka Benzema and Alonso.

No idea why that is the case, but United just do not have that kind of pull. So many players that the club missed out on even during the glory years, it is unreal.

Could be a case of having the trophies but not the money then and having the money but not the trophies now. Really don't know.
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Nobody can do that anymore. Signing a superstar these days takes up an entire budget. Its why they hasnt done it since Bale.
 
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golden_blunder said:
let me be the first to say welcome to COVID
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It's not as if things were any different before. We've almost never signed the top tier of players. Even our biggest signings have been just a step down from the truly best. We've probably sold more world class players than we've bought, on the whole. We've never signed a genuine Ballon d'Or favorite, have we? Not one who had that status at the time of signing, anyway. Pogba may have been the closest thing, but I don't think most people would really consider him to be on the absolute topmost level. He was more like an 8.5/10, and if anything, he has gone down since his return. We've done well to see the potential in quite a few young players (Rooney, Ronaldo) but never staked a claim to anyone who was established as one of the world's very best players in their prime.
 
Hugh Jass said:
I remember Ferguson saying he had the chance to sign Brazilian Ronaldo and he turned him down. His reasoning was it would cost too much in wages and would destabilize the team.
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Back in the 90's in comparison to other top clubs in europe our wage ceiling was quite low.
 
We’ve never tended to sign already world class players. Even under Fergie it was a rarity. We often turned very good young players into world class players.

I think if Fergie was in charge of this current squad he’d be looking at players like Grealish & Ndidi, he liked buying domestic.

Given the owners we have, covid, & the overall ambitions of the club, don’t expect any world class players joining any time soon.
 
Hugh Jass said:
I remember Ferguson saying he had the chance to sign Brazilian Ronaldo and he turned him down. His reasoning was it would cost too much in wages and would destabilize the team.
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Was that not Batistuta? Or was it the same reason for both?

Us signing World Class players seem to be hits when it’s a big fish in a small pond so the player still has something to prove at a higher level like Stam, Yorke, Cole, Rio, Bruno, RVP, RVN. But When it’s been a big fish who has had success with a big club we’ve not had too much success, Hargreaves was one for a season before injuries hit him hard.

Zlatan- Neither- might be controversial did score a good amount of goals but a 6th place finish isn’t what we signed him for and won the EL without him.

Pogba- Neither, 5th Season on and still can’t get the Juve/ French player out of him, some cracking games but also some utter tripe performances and quite injury prone.

Falcao- FLOP - Monster injury before coming here so it was a punt but didn’t suit our style of play or the PL

Di Maria- FLOP - Won League title and CL with Madrid didn’t want to be here and his only motivation was money

Sanchez- FLOP - Won La Liga, didn’t want to be here and his only motivation was money

Veron- FLOP, didn’t seem to adapt to the PL but we did have one of the greatest midfield duos of all time in Keane and Scholes but to be fair he did alright in the CL.

Schweinsteiger- FLOP, Love the guy, but there was a reason why Munich were happy to sale, past his best but he was great at pointing though.

Cavani- FLOP, really like him but he’s had more muscle injuries this season then I’ve had hot dinners.

Kane (does like an ankle injury though) , Grealish, Rice, Haaland & Sancho, would fall into the category that we’ve been successful with, cost a lot but they will have something to prove at a higher level.
 
Pogba had far more of an astute reputation in Italy compared to Bruno in Portugal to the footballing world. Spurs came close to signing him this all but confirms Bruno was never considered world class before arriving in England though he had good statistics for Sporting. Bruno joining United is similar to Salah joining Liverpool or De Bryune from Wolfsburg. The players arrived and their games have gone up a few levels to the extent they are clearly identified as the best players in the league.

When the club purchased Pogba it was with the expectation of his ability which he was already displaying in Serie A
 
DoomSlayer said:
I think our fans need to readjust their expectations.

Our club didn't sign world class players when we were on top of the game, what makes you think we can or will start doing it now?

We are just not competitive anymore. We don't have the financial investment of City or Chelsea, even if they are less sustainable than us.

Don't get it twisted, Liverpool will also struggle in the current climate and if they don't improve massively, they might be left behind next season again.

Personally, I don't think we can compete with City domestically, unless the team overachieves massively. I think only Chelsea have a strong position due to bigger squad depth and an owner who is ambitious to invest money into the club.
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This is something I think a lot of people forget. Chelsea & especially City have a head start on everyone due to the owners they have. We were able to surpass Chelsea & beat City to a title because we had the greatest manager of all time. Take away Sir Alex & we (and every other team) are starting at a severe handicap to the oil clubs.
 
Dansk said:
It's not as if things were any different before. We've almost never signed the top tier of players. Even our biggest signings have been just a step down from the truly best. We've probably sold more world class players than we've bought, on the whole. We've never signed a genuine Ballon d'Or favorite, have we? Not one who had that status at the time of signing, anyway. Pogba may have been the closest thing, but I don't think most people would really consider him to be on the absolute topmost level. He was more like an 8.5/10, and if anything, he has gone down since his return. We've done well to see the potential in quite a few young players (Rooney, Ronaldo) but never staked a claim to anyone who was established as one of the world's very best players in their prime.
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No I no, but especially this season
 
Firstly, it's more effective to get players to fit a system than to try to work a system around players who are established as world class. Take England's "Golden Generation" as an example, with its "world class" midfield; no manager proved able to get Gerrard and Lampard to effectively play together, despite being two of the best central midfielders in the world at the time. Take Ibrahimovic moving to Barcelona and starting really well; before long, Messi was texting Guardiola about how he could see he was no longer needed. Take Veron at United and being ahead of his time in terms of playing right the way across the midfield instead of rigidly RCM or LCM. Systems are as important as players in guaranteeing success.

Secondly, world class players generally know exactly what they're worth, and may have certain clauses written into their contracts to reflect this. These clauses may be financially crippling (imagine if half the squad had a favoured nations clause when Sanchez signed), system-breaking (two goalkeepers want guaranteed game time in their contracts) or outright mutually exclusive (two strikers want the rights to every penalty in their contracts). As much as a world class player can bring to the team, sometimes they just aren't worth their demands.

Thirdly, there's only so much money the club has to spend, particularly in COVID times. While I agree with the feeling that I'd rather have one £75M player than five £15M ones, importing an entire team of world class players isn't financially viable.

Fourthly, world class players don't really guarantee success. Madrid's Galacticos team in the 2000s rarely got to the quarter finals of the CL, while United's model of bringing in high quality but comparatively unknown players proved significantly more successful - wouldn't Madrid have been better signing Vidic than Cannavaro in 2006, or C. Ronaldo rather than Beckham in 2003? We've had our own share of shockers recently in terms of Galactico-esque signings, with Schweinsteiger, Falcao, Di Maria, Sanchez and Mkhitaryan all being high profile yet underwhelming signings.

The problem with the scouting department isn't that they aren't going for big enough names. It seems to me that they've lost sight of SAF's top priority - "Does this player have the mentality required?"
 
How we replace him will be massive. Out of our current midfield 2 options he is the only one good enough to play for a top team.

Fred and McTominay cannot be starters week in week out
 
Hound Dog said:
Did not seem to hurt Real when they signed Ronaldo Kaka Benzema and Alonso.

No idea why that is the case, but United just do not have that kind of pull. So many players that the club missed out on even during the glory years, it is unreal.

Could be a case of having the trophies but not the money then and having the money but not the trophies now. Really don't know.
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Also didn't produce much for them for a while and generally couldn't touch Barcelona.
 
Andycoleno9 said:
Not just now, even during Fergie we rarely went for best players in the world. Only Veron, Sanchez, Pogba and RVP can go in that category. And it is not that we don't have reputation and money. We just spend it on other players
Are you disappointed with that? My opinion that top players win you trophies. And we at this moment have only one (2 if you count Bruno) and he (Pogba) wants to go.
Meanwhile there are rumours how Mbappe will be available for 120mil this summer or free next summer. We are not a club who is even mentioned about that. Ramos will be free this summer and i doubt that we will go for him. Haaland rejected us because of Dortmund and now i don't think we will go in bidding war. If Kane will want out this summer, again i don't think that we will be serious contender in signing him.

I think that we must make some transfer statement this summer. To show that we are still top dog around.
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When have we signed world class players and it has worked?
 
Hugh Jass said:
I remember Ferguson saying he had the chance to sign Brazilian Ronaldo and he turned him down. His reasoning was it would cost too much in wages and would destabilize the team.
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Exactly, it makes perfect sense and it served Fergie and the club well for a long period. I'd love us to sign Haaland and Mbappe but if it meant brining them in on Alexis/DDG wages i'd expect the club to look elsewhere
 
Schmeichel's Cartwheel said:
This is something I think a lot of people forget. Chelsea & especially City have a head start on everyone due to the owners they have. We were able to surpass Chelsea & beat City to a title because we had the greatest manager of all time. Take away Sir Alex & we (and every other team) are starting at a severe handicap to the oil clubs.
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Yeah, this is the reality of our situation and the fanbase needs to accept it or actively do something to change it, not just harassing or abusing our own players and manager in every way possible. They are doing their fecking best, it's been pretty obvious for some time now, the problem with not being competitive is totally different.
 
M Bison said:
Exactly, it makes perfect sense and it served Fergie and the club well for a long period. I'd love us to sign Haaland and Mbappe but if it meant brining them in on Alexis/DDG wages i'd expect the club to look elsewhere
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I would have to agree.

Lets say hypothetically we sign haaland and give him Bale wages, then loads of other players in the team are going to be looking for increases.
 
Because it's not an effective transfer policy. If you buy the odd galactico they tend to do more harm than good. If you buy them consistently every season you have to do it for years and years before it actually substantially improves you as a club. And even then it's no guarantee of keeping you at the top if you manage to get there.
 
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