Who replaces Ten Hag?

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daba said:
With him managing Germany he could potentially not be available until the second half of July due to the Euros. That for me makes him a non-starter if we want a new manager for start of next season.
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What about INEOS agree a deal for him to come after the tournament,however ensure that the players identified by the recruitment team are in for place for his arrival.
 
croadyman said:
What about INEOS agree a deal for him to come after the tournament,however ensure that the players identified by the recruitment team are in for place for his arrival.
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That’s all well and good but how can your head coach miss half of pre-season. I know some players will also be missing due to the Euros but I just can’t see that being how INEOS will want to start off their first campaign.

I could however see Nagelsmann as a viable option if we decide to stick with ETH come the end of the season and he has a poor start.
 
Jericholyte2 said:
Why? His managerial success was based on prime Ronaldo, Bale and Benzema with Kroos and Modric behind them.

We're somewhat lacking in comparison.
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And Pep’s success is based on Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, KDB, Haaland etc

I’m not completely sold on Zidane here especially because i) he’s not really a builder of teams yet based on his short managerial career thus far and ii) of all the noise that he only wants to manage Madrid and France.
 
To be fair I am not even excited who could be the next manager. What's the point if the next manager also bins his philosophy to adapt to our players. We need a good revamp of our squad.
 
AshRK said:
To be fair I am not even excited who could be the next manager. What's the point if the next manager also bins his philosophy to adapt to our players. We need a good revamp of our squad.
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I feel confident that INEOS will appoint the right manager who fits into how they want to play. Does worry me that Potter is still top of the betting and Lopetegui is second. How on earth are they both so far up the list. Surely there are teams looking for managers who will happily appoint these two.
 
AshRK said:
To be fair I am not even excited who could be the next manager. What's the point if the next manager also bins his philosophy to adapt to our players. We need a good revamp of our squad.
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I really struggle to believe how we let this happen with ETH. The whole idea should have been for him to get us playing the way Ajax used to - subject to certain alterations for the PL and some players we have. Instead it’s just been nearly all adapt and no change which has been hugely disappointing.


Ineos and their new executives must be clear on the way they want us to operate and play football and any hinderance to that has to be collateral damage. You can’t desire to play possession football and then watch Bruno play hero football or want to suffocate teams with a strong press and have Rashford ambling about doing feck all. We need to fully commit to a specific vision which aligns with what works in the modern game.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
And Pep’s success is based on Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, KDB, Haaland etc

I’m not completely sold on Zidane here especially because i) he’s not really a builder of teams yet based on his short managerial career thus far and ii) of all the noise that he only wants to manage Madrid and France.
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Yeah until I hear the big Utd sources talking him up I wouldn't worry about giving it credibility
 
amolbhatia50k said:
I really struggle to believe how we let this happen with ETH. The whole idea should have been for him to get us playing the way Ajax used to - subject to certain alterations for the PL and some players we have. Instead it’s just been nearly all adapt and no change which has been hugely disappointing.


Ineos and their new executives must be clear on the way they want us to operate and play football and any hinderance to that has to be collateral damage. You can’t desire to play possession football and then watch Bruno play hero football or want to suffocate teams with a strong press and have Rashford ambling about doing feck all. We need to fully commit to a specific vision which aligns with what works in the modern game.
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Absolutely. I hate when managers come here and dance to the tunes of some players. Eth's sides were known for keeping possession , how come that has been totally binned. That itself is a red flag.

I hope the new board has a candid talk to him and ask how does he plans to play. If you don't want to play the football that made you popular, then what's the point keeping you in the job.
 
United can't afford to appoint another manager who doesn't want to win the midfield battle and dominate from there .

Can't bear to witness another manager come in and have no idea how to set up midfield and look totally clueless .
 
AshRK said:
Absolutely. I hate when managers come here and dance to the tunes of some players. Eth's sides were known for keeping possession , how come that has been totally binned. That itself is a red flag.

I hope the new board has a candid talk to him and ask how does he plans to play. If you don't want to play the football that made you popular, then what's the point keeping you in the job.
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Honestly as much as I liked this appointment to start with, I feel he may have made too many major mistakes already to recover. Focusing little on the midfield rebuild, stocking up AMs, giving Bruno and Rashford all the leeway, focusing solely on transition and no improvement in possession (even past it LVG has a strong imprint on our retention) and of course signing Antony - a hopelessly out of depth winger for 80m. Even the expensive Casemiro signing is now coming back to bite us.

I was happy with ETH last season and I sympathise with him this year for the injuries. But at the same time I’m also struggling to see him take us in the direction we need to go.
 
ForeverRed1 said:
Anyone seen Rio’s comments on arteta ? He reckons he would come here if we wanted him. Infact he stated he is 100% certain. He’s either on the wind up or knows something.
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Wow, that would be interesting. What Arteta did at Arsenal was a complete 360, rid the team of cancers, implemented a discipline style that players bought into, wanted to win and shared that emotion. Watching Klopp the other day on his starting group, he said "I am not quite sure, I will have to look in the players eye to see who has the fire pre match to make a final decision." Do you think ETH makes his final lineup like that?
 
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Thought this was a bit interesting/fun. Some analytic company has tried to determine the best succesor to Klopp based on several factors. Pretending we would want to play someway close to Liverpool in terms of style and dominance, perhaps the order applies to us too. For those not wanting to click link, https://www.givemesport.com/jurgen-klopp-ideal-liverpool-replacement-data-analysts/ the order they went with is:

Amorin
Nagelssman
Tuchel
Postecoglu
Alonso
De Zerbi
 
amolbhatia50k said:
And Pep’s success is based on Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, KDB, Haaland etc

I’m not completely sold on Zidane here especially because i) he’s not really a builder of teams yet based on his short managerial career thus far and ii) of all the noise that he only wants to manage Madrid and France.
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If we have a strong recruitment team he doesn’t need to be a builder of teams.
 
If he managed to pull off a europa league win, Id be tempted to go for Amorim.
 
Sure as eggs are eggs, it will be bloody Southgate..!! :rolleyes:
 
Where’s all this Southgate talk come from? :wenger:

Fecking hell, if INEOS decide that Gareth Southgate is the man to return us to the pinnacle of football then we may as well pack it all in because we’re going nowhere under their leadership. But I suspect it’s a load of old bollocks and people are just shitting the bed for some reason.
 
Musclehead said:
Wow, that would be interesting. What Arteta did at Arsenal was a complete 360, rid the team of cancers, implemented a discipline style that players bought into, wanted to win and shared that emotion. Watching Klopp the other day on his starting group, he said "I am not quite sure, I will have to look in the players eye to see who has the fire pre match to make a final decision." Do you think ETH makes his final lineup like that?
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Probably not, however, the players have had too much power for too long here. I don’t think much of that will change until probably half of our squad are sold/leave. These players are not it. It took arteta a good couple of seasons and Klopp didn’t come and wave a magic wand.
 
ShinjiNinja26 said:
Where’s all this Southgate talk come from? :wenger:

Fecking hell, if INEOS decide that Gareth Southgate is the man to return us to the pinnacle of football then we may as well pack it all in because we’re going nowhere under their leadership. But I suspect it’s a load of old bollocks and people are just shitting the bed for some reason.
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It's just absolute nonsense.
 
croadyman said:
What about INEOS agree a deal for him to come after the tournament,however ensure that the players identified by the recruitment team are in for place for his arrival.
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He would have to give his input beforehand so they get the right players in for his system because the shite that's on the pitch now wouldn't be able to play the way he wants. I like that he's young.....doesn't look like he would give two shits how much a player is making a week, and wouldn't be afraid to make changes. Although I thought that about ETH as well.
 
Pscholes18 said:
He would have to give his input beforehand so they get the right players in for his system because the shite that's on the pitch now wouldn't be able to play the way he wants. I like that he's young.....doesn't look like he would give two shits how much a player is making a week, and wouldn't be afraid to make changes. Although I thought that about ETH as well.
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Yeah I appreciate that's not an easy task as he will be planning for a home Euros at the same time. He did get schooled by Ole when we played Leipzig at Old Trafford,however demonstrated the tactical flexibility to change things for the game in Germany.
 
ForeverRed1 said:
Probably not, however, the players have had too much power for too long here. I don’t think much of that will change until probably half of our squad are sold/leave. These players are not it. It took arteta a good couple of seasons and Klopp didn’t come and wave a magic wand.
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Agreed, however, what I see on the pitch is the opposite of progression. In fact it seems to be along the lines of regression. Just to add to Klopp's Liverpool reign, took over in 2015,

2015 finished 8th with 16 wins
2016, 4th with 22 wins
2017 4th with 21 wins
2018 2nd with 30 wins
2019 1st with 32 wins

While you stated the magic wand, not really what I would expect, however this clearly shows a team progressing. I won't even cite us because it just depresses me. Jose was making progression as well, however Woodward stood in the way. The Pogba debacle being front and center. He additionally identified Martial for his ineptness, but no, someone who had no clue about on pitch play was running the show, into the ground I might add.
Anyone who came out of last nights game thinking it actually meant something against Nottingham, I actually had to turn it off in the first half it was so bad. I was hoping for a change of tactics or something to give a spark in the 2nd half, nothing, but they lucked out again. There is a complete lack of progression at this time. It has stagnated and clearly marks a need for change. I thought ETH would have done more and am certainly wondering why that hasn't happened? The next manager will need 3 yrs to right things, however there needs to be a clear commitment to this with the entitled little non performers moved out.
 
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SomeRandomPerson said:
I think Ineos will want the same kind of attacking, play-out-from-the-back, high-press football that all the top teams play now and will try to get a coach in line with those principles. After Brailsford did an audit at Nice last year to try and fix the problems there, they appointed a new Director of Football and appointed Francesco Farioli as manager on the explicit premise that he would help them play dominant possession oriented football (as per the DoF). So there's no way they settle for counter attacking football or a pragmatic coach like Conte or Allegri.

With that in mind, and also given that ten Hag will almost certainly get sacked (to start the Ineos era with a clean slate if not for any other reason), I think the next manager will either be De Zerbi or Nagelsmann (if Postecoglou were still at Celtic, he would be in the frame too, IMO). Nagelsmann because he is easy to get (his Germany contract ends after the Euros in the summer), is young and comes with a big reputation (Bayern paid 20m to get him from Leipzig, his failure there notwithstanding) for playing exactly the kind of dominant football Ineos will want. De Zerbi because he's also young, has shown he can instill that dominant playing style in the PL with Brighton (and remember, he also got Sassuolo playing the exact same style and scoring loads so it's not just Brighton having the players for this style) and he's been widely reported to be admired within the City Football Group as a potential Pep replacement, and given Ineos have poached Berrada from City, it's easy to see why they might go for him. Plus, I should point out that their choice at Nice - Farioli - used to be a aprt of De Zerbi's coaching staff, so the admiration for De Zerbi clearly goes beyond just Berrada and the City Football Group. I mention Ange Postecoglou because he also has previous links to the City Football Group, Berrada was Head of Football Operations there so must be already familiar with him. But he's now at Spurs and there's no way Levy lets him join United (and I don't think he would even want to - he seems the loyal sort and won't leave Spurs for a rival).

I was an adamant supporter of appointing Ten Hag because I hoped he would instill the Ajax playing style at United. And given how easy on the eye his Ajax side were, it seemed more enticing to me than Pochettino. But at United, he's shown himself to be rather pragmatic. Last season, his pragmatism proved to be a major boon as we broke a 5-season trophy drought (before Klopp won the CL in 2019, Liverpool had not won anything since 2012 and the last trophy before that was 2006. Trophy droughts have a way off snowballing very quickly - just ask Spurs and Arsenal - and it was important to put paid to that IMO), got to the FA cup final, the Europa League quarters (this is my only complaint from his first season, we were the best team in the tournament and the collapse against Sevilla was incredibly disappointing - the first half at Old Trafford was a bloodbath and they were lucky to be only 2 down at half time. If you'd told me then that United would lose this tie 5-2 I'd have laughed in your face) and our 2nd highest points total since Sir Alex - only Mourinho's 81 points in 2017/18 was higher and considering De Gea had a monster season, that tally rather flattered the team IMO. Contrary to what many on here will say, I genuinely think last season was far and away our best in the post-Fergie years and the only one that looked even remotely sustainable (the year Ole finished 2nd was built on a string of second half comebacks away from home, which wasn't really sustainable IMO).

But all of that makes this season even more disappointing. And while I don't want to rewrite ten Hag's entire tenure based on this season (as I said, I think his first season went about as well as anyone could reasonably hope), I think the failure to build on last season and instill an identifiable playing style should cost him his job. At least at United, Ten Hag's approach has been too reliant on individuals. When Dalot is fit, he inverts into midfield but when Wan Bissaka is playing at RB, he gets pushed up high and wide; when Antony plays RW, he comes inside a lot to receive the ball whereas Garnacho stays wide; when Mainoo and Casemiro play in midfield, both of them stay relatively deep in midfield during build up, but take one of them out and put in McTominay and he plays basically as a second striker. We don't have a coherent playing style/patterns of play because Ten Hag asks the team to do radically different things from game to game based on the XI on the pitch. Now you might defend Ten Hag on this and say he's not been able to do the same things consistently because of all the injuries, and he asks the replacements to do radically different things because they are radically different players and that speaks to how incoherently the squad has been built and that's fair, but Spurs managed to dominate our midfield at Old Trafford with their Hojbjerg and Skipp despite the first choice (Bentancur and Bissouma) being out and that should tell you the power of dogmatism in terms of playing style - even lesser players are able to execute the system because the team does the same things every week and hence, they learn the system just by repetition and are able to deputize well.

To rebuild the team, we need a similarly dogmatic coach as Postecoglou and so, I think De Zerbi and Nagelsmann may both be good options even if I have my doubts about both. Nagelsmann is a good option in that he comes with more pedigree - he arguably comes with more pedigree than Ten Hag even, and Bayern picked him even though they had to pay a pretty penny to get him so they must think highly of his ability - and despite relative failure at Bayern (still won the league in his first season, was top of the league in his second season and on an 8 game winning streak in the Champions League when he got sacked, exit to Lazio in his first season is a disappointment still), he overperformed wildly at Hoffenheim getting them to back to back top 4 finished having taken over with them in the relegation zone. Also did relatively well at RB Leipzig - got them to a CL semifinal (though that has an asterisk over it given it was a COVID single leg knockout CL), got them to a cup final (where they lost comfortably to Dortmund, so another asterisk but it is still respectable) and finished third in his first season and second in his second season. I think his Bayern team were quite underwhelming his entire tenure but they did score by the bucket loads.



For anyone looking for tactical breakdown, here's a video that goes into detail about his methods. In short, he favours a possession oriented style and likes to build centrally by exploiting spaces between the opposition midfield through quick one-touch play (in contrast to Guardiola who will ask his wide players to stay as wide as possible during build up to stretch the opposition backline, Nagelsmann positions his players to stretch the opposition midfield), and plays a compact midfield so that even if possession is lost while playing through the middle, having bodies there allows him to win possession back quickly via coordinated pressing to sustain attacks. The video also goes into detail about how Nagelsmann altered his methods at Bayern due to the demands of his players (he also reportedly had a falling out with Lewandowski who did not take kindly to this preppy, arrogant kid telling him how to position himself in the box to get on the end of chances), so that might go some way towards explaining his failures at Bayern. We have to hope that the Bayern thing really is an exception in his trajectory caused by tensions between him and the senior players and management and that in a (hopefully) better environment at United, he will shine.



I should also point out that he will probably be in high demand this summer with Liverpool (they are probably a shoe-in for him if Alonso stays at Leverkusen), Barcelona, Bayern (the people who fired him have all left) and probably Chelsea (he rejected them after Potter but may be up for it now) all looking for a new coach. So, if we do deem him a good fit, we'll probably have to act quickly.





Yeah, I think he will probably be the first choice given his admiration within the City setup and as stated, Ineos appointed one of his former staff as manager at Nice, so the admiration is clearly shared there as well. Plus, being Premier League proven also probably helps his case. I would also take De Zerbi because he is a known footballing dogmatist. He has this very particular style that he is adamant is the best way not just to win football matches, but also to get the fans onboard and excited as well as for the development of the players (his theory goes, if you consistently play through the opposition press using short, quick passes, it makes the player feel better about themselves and that confidence is infectious in terms of growth). Plus, if you've seen Kevin Prince Boateng's interview on Rio's podcast, he's an absolute nutter who is obsessed with football and will routinely stop training to tell players they are a few inches off position to play his style correctly. Adam Lallana confirmed this in an interview said that he is the most hands on, detail oriented manager he has ever worked with and will often pause training and participate in training himself to show the players how to position themselves and the correct body shape to receive the ball. And the football his teams play is certainly a testament to his ability as a teacher and coach. If we appoint him, I don't think anyone would be able to accuse us of lacking patterns of play or a defined playing style. Here he is explaining his build up play and philosophy -



But the problem with De Zerbi is also that he is completely dogmatic and won't change even if results are bad.



As you say, his teams cannot defend for shit. And this isn't just true at Brighton this season (where to be fair, they have had serious injury issues and have been playing European football for the first time in their history and we've seen loads of smaller teams struggle to cope with the increased workload), even his Sassuolo teams conceded tons of chances and would, like Brighton this season, often go on these runs of 15-20 games of poor results. In fact, as I learned from The Athletic's James Horncastle this week on a podcast, De Zerbi is at the centre of something of a culture war in Italy where the most hipster section of the public think that Italian football needs to shed its old ways and follow along with De Zerbi's tactics since they are more in line with the cutting edge in the game, whereas the older folk like Fabio Capello do the "if he's so great how come he's never won anything?" routine.

There's also the issue that De Zerbi plays the same man-to-man pressing/defending system that so many have criticized Ten Hag for this season. Now obviously, Brighton also play the high line to go with that system and so, don't leave oceans of space in midfield like we do (and so, don't concede 20 shots a game like we do). But still, they do have the issue where clever teams can manipulate the man-to-man system and create a lot of space in the middle of the park.

De Zerbi for his own part also seems to be more interested in style than trophies -

https://www.skysports.com/watch/vid...n-trophies-my-target-is-to-enjoy-and-be-happy

I think De Zerbi would be a great option to implement a style and then, we have to hope that with a bigger budget and better players, his style will lead to success to go with the fun style of football.




Yeah, most of the choices for us seem to have question marks over them. But I don't think sure fire options are often available. Liverpool got lucky with Klopp but City did not - they planned systematically to get Pep. They made the decision early that they wanted Pep and put Begiristain/Soriano in place in 2012 to create the system in anticipation of Pep's arrival. As you know, Pep was not available in 2012 and went to Bayern in 2013 after a year sabbatical. So Soriano/Begiristain simply built the structure and appointed a coach with the same possession principles in Pellegrini to help build the team for Pep. We should follow suit. Hire whoever we think most likely to implement the style we want and keep an eye out for the next Pep/Klopp, because you never know when they might emerge. A year ago, no one would have had Xabi Alonso down as being one of the world's elite coaches and now, the biggest clubs in the world are fighting for his signature. If we have the right structures in place, we will get our chance so long as we keep our eyes peeled.
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I feel your post lacked detail .
 
FrankDrebin said:
I can see it being Southgate. :(
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No chance. England have been successful in spite of him and INEOS‘ due diligence will note that he was a pretty average manager at best pre-England. I don’t think he even makes the serious shortlists of the likes of Brailsford, Berrada and Ashworth.
 
For me, and I said it before, but there is only 1 person who has the aura and nous to challenge City and bring us where we need to be. And that man is Simeone. Not a popular choice I know, but feck me its not like we play attractive football under ETH.

Won't happen now anyway as he has signed a long term contact with Atletico.
 
I Inzaghi is not exactly in the vouge for whatever reason but his record has been pretty solid throughout, great knockout results with Lazio and inter which with the latter he massively overperformed and seems to have rectified his less than desirable league results with inter in previous years by pretty much walking the league now.

Is probably ready to make the next big step in his career(inter are obviously among the giants of the game but their current financial situation is keeping them back).
 
Ayoba said:
For me, and I said it before, but there is only 1 person who has the aura and nous to challenge City and bring us where we need to be. And that man is Simeone. Not a popular choice I know, but feck me its not like we play attractive football under ETH.

Won't happen now anyway as he has signed a long term contact with Atletico.
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Nah don’t fancy seeing our players turn into dirty cheats. He’ll have more money to spend with us but why spend it to play negative football. Ratcliffe will want the style of play to be exciting and attacking… so he’ll bring in people to play that style.
 
well according to The Scum ,

Graham Potter to replace Erik ten Hag at Manchester United?
The Scum are reporting that Dan Ashworth has held a meeting with Graham Potter

OK OK its The Sun, I know, but this cant been be even remotely can it !
FFS I would rather have Harry Potter
 
pauldyson1uk said:
well according to The Scum ,

Graham Potter to replace Erik ten Hag at Manchester United?
The Scum are reporting that Dan Ashworth has held a meeting with Graham Potter

OK OK its The Sun, I know, but this cant been be even remotely can it !
FFS I would rather have Harry Potter
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I would have thought there would be a separate Graham Potter thread about this as it was rumoured previously but this is quite a convincing story. It’s becoming quite a real thing now

i woukd have serious concern. Looked like a deer in the headlights at Chelsea and if we think the pressure at utd will be any less….if anything it will be more

but feck all I can do about it. I will hope he succeeds if they bring him in
 
Tough to argue for Potter over Nagelsmann (could work out here as a long-term solution) or De Zerbi (fun, improve the technical quality of the team so the floor is okay).

Looking at Potter, I think his work at Brighton obviously seems less impressive now that De Zerbi has come in and done a good job. But his bad season at Chelsea isn't as horrific either. They had no goalscorers, Reece James only played 16 times, Potter came in early September with no pre-season.

I wouldn't be up in arms like a Southgate appointment, but it's not crazy to think he'd do "okay". Not sure what the purpose of an okay appointment is though, unless it's just a cheap option to buy a couple years and implement INEOS stuff, so it's definitely a plan C sort of thing.
 
pauldyson1uk said:
well according to The Scum ,

Graham Potter to replace Erik ten Hag at Manchester United?
The Scum are reporting that Dan Ashworth has held a meeting with Graham Potter

OK OK its The Sun, I know, but this cant been be even remotely can it !
FFS I would rather have Harry Potter
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Then it's a running in the sand thing. Potter, Graham or Harry, are not at the caliber needed to revamp this team. Why do these guys always repeat the same mistakes?
 
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