Who replaces Ten Hag?

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Jericholyte2 said:
Shaw, Rashford and Martial have gone through LvG, Jose, Ole and now ETH.

Dalot, Lindelof, Shaw, McT, Rashford, Martial have gone through Jose, Ole and now ETH

Dalot, Maguire, Varane, Lindelof, Shaw, McT, Rashford, Martial, Sancho have gone through Ole and now ETH.

That’s 1/4 of the squad that is now on their 3rd manager at least at the club, and the same cycle is happening. This is not a coincidence.
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1/4 of the squad. Yet most of them have been good this season and still give it their all each week, Martial isn't turning on Ten Hag and, if he is, I doubt anybody gives a toss. Sancho isn't even here. Everyone is desperate to have Shaw and Varane back.

I think you're reaching a bit there.
 
Jericholyte2 said:
Shaw, Rashford and Martial have gone through LvG, Jose, Ole and now ETH.

Dalot, Lindelof, Shaw, McT, Rashford, Martial have gone through Jose, Ole and now ETH

Dalot, Maguire, Varane, Lindelof, Shaw, McT, Rashford, Martial, Sancho have gone through Ole and now ETH.

That’s 1/4 of the squad that is now on their 3rd manager at least at the club, and the same cycle is happening. This is not a coincidence.
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Don't know why it's so difficult for some of you to simply accept we've hired managers who aren't good enough, instead of trying to look for other reasons to explain why they're so bad
 
Jericholyte2 said:
Shaw, Rashford and Martial have gone through LvG, Jose, Ole and now ETH.

Dalot, Lindelof, Shaw, McT, Rashford, Martial have gone through Jose, Ole and now ETH

Dalot, Maguire, Varane, Lindelof, Shaw, McT, Rashford, Martial, Sancho have gone through Ole and now ETH.

That’s 1/4 of the squad that is now on their 3rd manager at least at the club, and the same cycle is happening. This is not a coincidence.
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ETH has thrown himself under the bus with his stupid tactics and setup. I’m sure INEOS had no intention of sacking him when they took over, they probably set a low bar and if he displayed any level of competence he’d have been fine.
 
You'd feel if we didn't get to the FA Cup Final, what with Top 4 now mathematically gone, then Ten Hag would be gone tomorrow. As it is he's probably another Van Gaal where he's gone after the FA Cup win or lose.
 
AndySmith1990 said:
Don't know why it's so difficult for some of you to simply accept we've hired managers who aren't good enough, instead of trying to look for other reasons to explain why they're so bad
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I’m not saying the managers were good enough, but I’m saying a significant portion of our squad are players who blatantly downed tool for at least TWO other managers, yet they face no repercussions.

Whether that’s come from on high, with Glazers refusing to sell certain players, managers being too weak to suggest those players go, or managers realising some of the other priorities, they’ve been allowed to stay with no accountability.

This will be THE test for the INEOS group, how they handle the required dismantling of this toxic group of players.
 
I pop in here every so often to say McKenna.

I’ll be back in a week or so.
 
devilish said:
First of all no manager will succeed at United unless we get our backroom staff in order. That mean better fitness people, better negotiators, better sporting director, better technical director, better CEO and better communication from top to bottom. Secondly while I don't deny that the manager is indeed a problem its pretty evident that we have some serious attitude problems within the squad. These things are something we have to take in serious account

Now let's analyze the managers we had since SAF retired. Moyes was the EPL proven manager. Unfortunately he never worked at top club level and by the time he joined United his tactics were already becoming dated. LVG replaced him. He was Woodward's version of top manager. Again by the time LVG signed for us his tactics were already dated having been previously sacked at Barca and Bayern. LVG saddled us with some unsuited players such as tiny Blind, Rojo, Depay and co. Then Mou came. He was considered as the EPL proven winner. Again by the time Mou signed for us his best years were already behind him. Then we went for the former player, the Ole and the wheel. Ole had 1 EPL experience as a manager that went horribly and proven to be completely out of depth. Finally we went for one of the most promising manager at the time in ETH. Similarly to LVG he had no idea how the EPL works and the Eredivisie invasion returned.

As said no manager will ever succeed unless we sort the football side of the club. We can't go for a 30m rated winger only to spend 80m for him. Now assuming that's sorted then what do we need? In my opinion we need

a- someone who already worked in a difficult environment. That would help him navigate at this club
b- someone who had worked with big names. If those big players happen to be ours then the better. He'll know whom to trust and whom not, who should be shown the door and whose not
c- he understand the EPL, its physicality, its ridiculous high tempo and its culture. No more CMs made up of 1 DM with two no 10s, no more 5ft10 CBs etc
d- his tactics needs to be modern and effective.

I can only think of one man that fits the bill ie Mckenna. He had previously worked with United, he understands the EPL, he knows exactly whom to trust having seen not 1 but 2 managers being backstabbed by their squad and his tactics at Ipswich are off the charts and can fit our current team quite well. If this is set to become a head coach job than Mckenna is perfect for it
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Yeah I'd go with Mckenna if we were willing to back him properly with a clear out of any bad elements still present in the squad.

What he's done with Ipswich is amazing, he plays good football and has shown he can work with less than ideal squads and improve individuals massively while doing so.

He also knew the club during some dark days so should have some insight on necessary changes.

I don't want Tuchel, he's just asking for trouble and isn't a good enough coach to warrant it for me, similar to Conte.
 
McKenna sounds interesting but the risks are also very high. Championship is not PL, there is a big difference.

Also, once he has to manage our prima donnas things could turn south quickly. It's all well and good managing players from League One and Championship. When you need to deal with players like Rashford, Sancho, Bruno and many other "star" players it will be very different.

They would not only not following your instructions to play your style of football but also may throw you under the bus. Our lots have thrown many high profile managers under the bus already including even Rangnick as interim. They refused to run and press under Rangnick, could you believe it?

To appoint McKenna, we need to have patience like Arsenal had with Arteta. Get rid of all our problematic players over a few season in the wilderness before results start to improve.

Maybe just maybe, this is the only way we can change the club in the long term. Whoever we get in as a manager it will not work with this lot.
 
the_cliff said:
I think one of the worst things that Pep has brought to football is you have people that seriously believe that ETH, Potter or De Zerbi are better managers than Tuchel.
Anybody that plays any type of football anywhere near Peps is automatically considered the dogs bollocks and anyone who doesn't plays some shithouse park the bus football. It's a joke.


I hope Tuchel doesn't stay at Bayern because he's the only manager available right now that is good enough for United.
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I get the point youre making but its a bit misleading as all three of the managers you mentioned play football not dissimilar to Tuchel (maybe not ETH at United, but certainly before). Tuchel is obviously much more successful but also further along in his career. Also worth noting Tuchel is also a Guardiola disciple.

I'm really torn on Tuchel. Based purely on his footballing record, he's easily the outstanding candidate, the best qualified we would have had since Mourinho and with a far more modern tactical approach. However, it's worth noting that his league record is a bit troubled. His only league titles are two at PSG and even that fell apart, and he barely deserves to be called a Bundesliga title winner the way last season ended. His CL record is genuinely outstanding on the other hand, and could yet get even more impressive.

His temperament does really worry me, and the way he fell out with the hierarchy at Dortmund and PSG is a concern given we are trying to build an entire new structure. Not saying this is a reason not to hire him, but it is a concern.

Having said all that, he's still the outstanding candidate, and I do believe he'd be doing a better job that Ten Hag is currently.

Jericholyte2 said:
José did too.

I’m asking what qualities he was, that others who failed don’t?

- winning trophies isn’t a quality, it’s a result
- José was a master tactician
- Ole was (for a time) a good man manager
- LvG had club and international experience
- José was great at getting players to run through walls for him
- LvG got multiple teams to play his way
- ETH got Ajax on a great CL run with a ridiculous GD over the season
- Some of the managers were good coaches
- some were strict disciplinarians
- so were nice and cushy with the players
- some got the players to play a strict style of play
- some got players to express themselves more

All of them have, thus far, failed.

So what would Tuchel bring that’s different, that would make him a success where others failed?
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For one, he's one of the best technical coaches in the world. One of the biggest problems we've seen at this club in recent years is that players don't improve under new managers, and we've especially seen this season that the technical quality of our team is not up to scratch, and for whatever reason is also not improvong on the training ground.

For another, Tuchel is a modern tactical expert. Jose might have been a great tactician, but his tactics had not moved with the times, and his tactics have stuck out like a sore thumb in his last three jobs. Tuchel's tactics are modern and sophisticated, based on the principles of pressing, ball retention, and structure without the ball, which are qualities all the best teams need in the modern game.

Finally, he has experience winning with difficult personalities. I actually agree with you that winning itself is the result of qualities rather than a quality itself, but what Tuchel had proved throughout his career is that he's able to manage egos and still win. This had been seen most obviously with PSG, but it has been there in his time with Chelsea too, and he's arguably also done really well to stabilise things at Bayern after a couple of damaging losses.

You could argue none of this is unique, but they are key qualities that appear to have been lacking under current and previous management.
 
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Mr Smith said:
I get the point youre making but its a bit misleading as all three of the managers you mentioned play football not dissimilar to Tuchel (maybe not ETH at United, but certainly before). Tuchel is obviously much more successful but also further along in his career. Also worth noting Tuchel is also a Guardiola disciple.

I'm really torn on Tuchel. Based purely on his footballing record, he's easily the outstanding candidate, the best qualified we would have had since Mourinho and with a far more modern tactical approach. However, it's worth noting that his league record is a bit troubled. His only league titles are two at PSG and even that fell apart, and he barely deserves to be called a Bundesliga title winner the way last season ended. His CL record is genuinely outstanding on the other hand, and could yet get even more impressive.

His temperament does really worry me, and the way he fell out with the hierarchy at Dortmund and PSG is a concern given we are trying to build an entire new structure. Not saying this is a reason not to hire him, but it is a concern.

Having said all that, he's still the outstanding candidate, and I do believe he'd be doing a better job that Ten Hag is currently.


For one, he's one of the best technical coaches in the world. One of the biggest problems we've seen at this club in recent years is that players don't improve under new managers, and we've especially seen this season that the technical quality of our team is not up to scratch, and for whatever reason is also not improvong on the training ground.

For another, Tuchel is a modern tactical expert. Jose might have been a great tactician, but his tactics had not moved with the times, and his tactics have stuck out like a sore thumb in his last three jobs. Tuchel's tactics are modern and sophisticated, based on the principles of pressing, ball retention, and structure without the ball, which are qualities all the best teams need in the modern game.

Finally, he has experience winning with difficult personalities. I actually agree with you that winning itself is the result of qualities rather than a quality itself, but what Tuchel had proved throughout his career is that he's able to manage egos and still win. This had been seen most obviously with PSG, but it has been there in his time with Chelsea too, and he's arguably also done really well to stabilise things at Bayern after a couple of damaging losses.

You could argue none of this is unique, but they are key qualities that appear to have been lacking under current and previous management.
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I suggest you read reports and views from Germany of his seasons.
 
Is it me or has the quality of managers in the current game taking a bit of a nose dive compared to the past decade or two?

It's amazing how few standout choices there are to the point that even Bayern are looking ragnick and Liverpool are making do with slot
 
Lee565 said:
Is it me or has the quality of managers in the current game taking a bit of a nose dive compared to the past decade or two?

It's amazing how few standout choices there are to the point that even Bayern are looking ragnick and Liverpool are making do with slot
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I'd argue it's just you.

Who was Klopp before arriving at Liverpool? He was a German version of Xabi Alonso, basically, and Liverpool gambled on him.

When you have a few big teams and managers dominating all the big trophies, inevitably you won't have as many people with big trophies to their name (think men's tennis).

Right now we have Xavi, Xabi and Inzaghi all doing well in leagues they played in as players. The problem is that England just doesn't produce good managers.
 
It's going to be the equivalent of SAF explaining why he chose Moyes. Ratcliffe will do a press conference after the FA Cup final explaining that he was the only man left... and out will walk Gareth Southgate.
 
First it was southgate
Then it was potter
Then de zerbi
Then it was nagelsmann
Now its tuchel

Dont think theres any proper info as to who they are considering
 
Yakuza_devils said:
McKenna sounds interesting but the risks are also very high. Championship is not PL, there is a big difference.

Also, once he has to manage our prima donnas things could turn south quickly. It's all well and good managing players from League One and Championship. When you need to deal with players like Rashford, Sancho, Bruno and many other "star" players it will be very different.

They would not only not following your instructions to play your style of football but also may throw you under the bus. Our lots have thrown many high profile managers under the bus already including even Rangnick as interim. They refused to run and press under Rangnick, could you believe it?

To appoint McKenna, we need to have patience like Arsenal had with Arteta. Get rid of all our problematic players over a few season in the wilderness before results start to improve.

Maybe just maybe, this is the only way we can change the club in the long term. Whoever we get in as a manager it will not work with this lot.
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There's a big difference between any other league and the PL, there's a higher risk with appointing any manager who hasn't managed/coached in it before
 
I think it’s going to be Tuchel and although sceptical I’m also not mad either, it’s a risky but potentially fruitful appointment even if it is short term.
 
Red in STL said:
There's a big difference between any other league and the PL, there's a higher risk with appointing any manager who hasn't managed/coached in it before
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Yes because all PL winning managers didn't actually come from abroad, they were all PL homeschooled.

I do have to wonder how many times English teams have to be humbled in the CL for people to realise the PL ain't all that difficult to win for a new manager.

See Mourinho, Ancelotti, Conte, Guardiola, Klopp, etc., etc.
 
Rightnr said:
Yes because all PL winning managers didn't actually come from abroad, they were all PL homeschooled.

I do have to wonder how many times English teams have to be humbled in the CL for people to realise the PL ain't all that difficult to win for a new manager.

See Mourinho, Ancelotti, Conte, Guardiola, Klopp, etc., etc.
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We're taling about United, we ain't getting a manager/coach with the credentials of these guys, I don't see McKenna as a being a bigger risk than a European coach
 
devilish said:
In my opinion we need

a- someone who already worked in a difficult environment. That would help him navigate at this club
b- someone who had worked with big names. If those big players happen to be ours then the better. He'll know whom to trust and whom not, who should be shown the door and whose not
c- he understand the EPL, its physicality, its ridiculous high tempo and its culture. No more CMs made up of 1 DM with two no 10s, no more 5ft10 CBs etc
d- his tactics needs to be modern and effective.

I can only think of one man that fits the bill ie Mckenna. He had previously worked with United, he understands the EPL, he knows exactly whom to trust having seen not 1 but 2 managers being backstabbed by their squad and his tactics at Ipswich are off the charts and can fit our current team quite well. If this is set to become a head coach job than Mckenna is perfect for it
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I can think of someone who fits the bill far more, Tuchel..
 
Wouldn't say no to Tuchel but he would be a very underwhelming appointment. I see the same issues emerging with him in charge as it did with some of our previous managers. The style of play is not defined, the recruitment is not top notch, falls out with upper management, is a short term fix.

Motta or McKenna (Or some other up and comer) would be my pick. They are young, dynamic, have a good style of football and can help develop the team in conjunction with the new backroom staff without the added pressure of getting results immediately.
 
Ten Hag will be here next year, I think that the DoF and Wilcox will be heading the overhaul with Brailsford looking over every aspect of the club and Berrada will trim the wage bill and be tough in negotiations.

I genuinely think we will see if ETH will make it before the end of next year and what we need first is a cultural change.

Even if we got a new manager the same culture would exist, and we arent setting up ETH or another coach for success in the current climate of the club.
 
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DSG said:
Man, the fecking Caf…

Literally debating whether Tuchel, Zidane and Luis Enrique are good enough managers for United, while at the same time pushing De Zerbi or Amorin or Motta…

Tuchel is one of the best knockout tournament managers in world football — he is a genius at organizing the defense and setting up in a way that makes his teams tough to beat. He plays several different styles. His Bayern team will score more in the league this year than last with probably 95ish goals. He’s in the CL semis. He won a CL with Chelsea, two league titles with PSG and a CL final, a league title with Bayern. How can we blame him for the Chelsea clusterfeck when Potter and Pochettino have fecked it up too?

Why on earth would we go for an untested / unproven at this level manager over someone who has won several major trophies?
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Fair point. He could become our (new) LvG in the manager who completely revamps the playing style and puts something in place that will last years. My issue with him is that I don’t know how well he will deal with people and the upper managment as he’s always picking fights. And United will the toughest job he’s taken up in terms of stature combined with problems.

Yakuza_devils said:
To appoint McKenna, we need to have patience like Arsenal had with Arteta. Get rid of all our problematic players over a few season in the wilderness before results start to improve.
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This is what we need regardless. We should take a lot of lessons from what Arsenal have done and not constantly seek shortcuts. If McKenna has huge potential I wouldn’t mind us hiring him but it really depends on how highly we rate the coach and man. From what I recall, our youth teams played some incredible stuff under him and he was very highly regarded even then. If he indeed has such big potential, I don’t see it as that crazy a risk as long as we give him power (not in the market but in the dressing room).
 
TheNewEra said:
Ten Hag will be here next year, I think that the DoG and Wilcox will be heading the overhaul with Brailsford looking over every aspect of the club and Berrada will trim the wage bill and be tough in negotiations.

I genuinely think we will see if ETH will make it before the end of next year and what we need first is a cultural change.

Even if we got a new manager the same culture would exist, and we arent setting up ETH or another coach for success in the current climate of the club.
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On the culture I don’t have an issue with ETH. He’s taken a tough stance with a lot of players which I was and am happy with him doing. The issue is his tactical imprint / system, the level of performances see and results he is able to get out of what he has and his signings too. I don’t see how culture reset alone can earn you another year at one of the elite clubs in world football. Surely you have to perform too.
 
Lee565 said:
Is it me or has the quality of managers in the current game taking a bit of a nose dive compared to the past decade or two?

It's amazing how few standout choices there are to the point that even Bayern are looking ragnick and Liverpool are making do with slot
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I think we're just in a transition period. We have a very small collection of established world class managers that any club would want, but almost no club can get (Guardiola, Klopp, Ancelotti). You also have top managers with baggage (Tuchel, Conte, Enrique, Allegri, etc), who can win you things but probably won't be around for too long. Then you have a bunch of young managers with small sample sizes and varying degrees of success (Inzhagi, Arteta, De Zerbi, Alonso, Naggelsmann, Motta, Slot, etc). Not all of these up an coming guys will make it (though you could argue Inzhagi and Alonso already have), so they feel like a gamble. Then theres managers like ETH and Pochettino, who were really promising managers but made bad moves sbd now their stock has plummeted. You've seen that happen to Emery with his tenures at PSG and Arsenal, but then he's revived his career with Villareal and Villa.

Basically, most managers are a risk either because there is a small sample size at the highest level or there's considerable baggage, and we just seem to have a high number of the small sample size ones at present. We've gone with top manager with baggage twice (Mourinho, Van Gaal), and small sample size at the top twice (Moyes, Ole). Ten Hag had more sample size at CL level so he's maybe somewhere between the two. He wasn't a bad hire in theory, but unless something dramatic happens, he's going to go down as another manager who came out looking worse than he did coming in. Which makes it hard to feel optimistic about other small sample size managers, because let's face it, why should we expect them to do any better?
 
FortunaUtd said:
I can think of someone who fits the bill far more, Tuchel..
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Tuchel has a better CV but I don't think he understand the EPL as Mckenna would, his man management had been criticized before and he certainly has no idea of what's going on inside United.
 
RedBanker said:
We are not looking for success. We want someone to not be an utter fraud like Hag playing pathetic football and stealing a living off our club.
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United is in a unique situation. On one hand we're the biggest club in the world in terms of media scrutiny and on the other hand we have lousy owners (ie the Glazers not INEOS), we basically have no football structure to support the manager and we have a squad who keeps being at the headlines for all the wrong reasons. That would cripple anyone.

ETH is not a good fit for us. His style is too radical in a squad which was built for counter attack football, his lack of experience in EPL had been fount out and he lacks charisma. He's basically LVG Mark II. That doesn't mean he's shit. At Ajax ETH had shown that he's a decent manager. Let's not forget that managers gets sacked all the time. Its a normal part of football.
 
Lee565 said:
Is it me or has the quality of managers in the current game taking a bit of a nose dive compared to the past decade or two?

It's amazing how few standout choices there are to the point that even Bayern are looking ragnick and Liverpool are making do with slot
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Looking at slots record, he's a bit of a gamble but could be the right choice. Plays 4231 with a double pivot. Likes full throttle football. Massive gamble.

I also hope uses his name when talking on TV. Eg. "He will be SLoTTiNG in with the squad very soon" :lol:
 
captain666 said:
We'd be lucky to get 2 seasons out of Tuchel but by then McKenna maybe ready?
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That's the reason why I can just about stomach Tuchel provided we limit him to a 2 year deal. The options aren't exactly vast and this would be a tough job for most young managers to take on in their first job at a big club.

It also gives us time to assess which of the young managers are the best ones over a larger sample size of games.
 
CM said:
That's the reason why I can just about stomach Tuchel provided we limit him to a 2 year deal. The options aren't exactly vast and this would be a tough job for most young managers to take on in their first job at a big club.

It also gives us time to assess which of the young managers are the best ones over a larger sample size of games.
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It will be a tough job for who ever takes it on but at least McKenna will hopefully have had 2 years EPL experience plus knows the Club etc, not that there will be many left!
 
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