Who replaces Ten Hag?

[Steve Bruce]

We need the best possible manager who can implement the style and philosophy that the board wants. If they decide that ETH isn't suited to doing that, we are far better off going for another manager that is, even if that manager ultimately isn't good enough and needs to be replaced in another year or two. When we then bring in our 'first choice' in one or two years, he will then find it much easier to implement what he wants if the playing squad have spent that time playing and being trained in a similar style. But there's no such thing as a sure thing when it comes to managers (except maybe Guardiola with a huge chequebook), so the first guy might actually step up and be truly successful after all.

Of course, the board may very well decide that ETH is suitable for doing that, and we just haven't seen it yet because of the demands and restrictions put upon him by the previous mob. That's up to them to decide.

ETH had the style at Ajax that everyone wanted, unfortunately he found out after 2 games the players we have are far away from what he needs to implement that style.

Anyway, I feel like I'm going round in circles on this thread. I'm going for a lie down

 

[Rista]

It's proper mental how terrified of changing the manager a good portion of the fanbase is. Potential candidates being deemed not good enough on the basis of comparison with Ten Hag and what he achieved 5 years ago and not what he's achieving right now. He's literally at the club having the worst season in club's modern history and people still questioning if there is anybody out there who could do better because he had one good season in Europe as an underdog years ago.

You could build the best possible structure at the club and it's still unlikely your first appointment would be the one to lead you to glory. We should stop fixating on the next manager being the messiah. It should absolutely not be the case of "either find this one world class coach or keep Ten Hag". It would be like persisting with Antony unless we find this perfect winger with perfect personality who's going to end his career here.

If the new people in charge know what they're doing then they'll find the candidates. People who are writing off other managers now would have laughed at the prospect of bringing Ange or De Zerbi to the PL before they went there at their respective clubs. We do not need Guardiola or Klopp and Ten Hag has done absolutely nothing to have this "world class replacement or keep" status.

 

[Sarni]

If you have an unreliable car, why would you go out and buy another one? Makes no sense. You'd wait until the right car came up rather than bouncing from 1 unreliable car to another.

Potter has already had a huge job with over half a billion spent at the time and failed. No chance he can succeed at United.

As I've said already, unless we start being linked seriously to managers with the potential to bring united to the top, I don't see the point in changing.

That's exactly what you would do though?

 

[ManRed]

There is nothing to suggest Erik will succeed at United. Its his second season here and our results are poor, no style of play has been implemented, his signings have overall been a disaster. I don't even know how to defend him and cant understand how people accept that things will magically change with a new structure above him.

I am not sure who the right manager is to take us forward and most name suggested are still in the early years of their career. I was reviewing Brighton stats this season and they have had 50%+ possession for most games this season (except against city, liverpool and spurs) and that could be a good start for United to become a possession strong attacking team again.

 

[RuudTom83]

There is no risk of failure with Ten Hag, he has already failed.

At this point I don't even know what United are anymore to say if the current team is failing or not.

The final league positions just tell me they are a Top 6 yo-yo club.

23/24 - 6th (currently)
22/23 - 3rd
21/22 - 6th
20/21 - 2nd
19/20 - 3rd
18/19 - 6th

 

[MadDogg]

If you have an unreliable car, why would you go out and buy another one? Makes no sense. You'd wait until the right car came up rather than bouncing from 1 unreliable car to another.

Potter has already had a huge job with over half a billion spent at the time and failed. No chance he can succeed at United.

As I've said already, unless we start being linked seriously to managers with the potential to bring united to the top, I don't see the point in changing.

How long do we wait for that great manager though? One season? Two? Three?

You mentioned in another post that 'we'll be left with the scraps after Liverpool, Barca and Bayern pick the best of what's available, and we're better off waiting'. But there is two very big issues with that mentality.

Firstly, there's nothing to say that in 12 months time some of those clubs won't be looking for another manager. If the guy they sign fails, they'll sack them and try again. It's what well-run top teams do, not just stick with a known bad option because there isn't a 100% guaranteed successful option. There's a fair few rumours that Guardiola may leave City in the not-too-distant future, so they might also be looking the following season. Real might be looking, etc.

Secondly, if you believe that those clubs are more attractive to top managers, that will be because they are in a successful position while we are in a mess. If we believe ETH isn't capable being successful here, then we're still going to be in a mess in 12 months time or however long we wait. So we'll still be in a worse position that whatever top clubs are looking for managers at that moment, and will always be down the pecking order. Alternatively we replace him with a manager that can turn us around and get us in a better position, even if they likely can't take us all the way. That makes us more attractive to any high-demand manager we are looking at in the future, as they can then be more confident that they can walk in and be in a position to succeed.

Now obviously that doesn't mean we just replace ETH with any Tom, Dick or Harry. But even if we miss out on the top three options (based on your scenario of the other three clubs picking the best three), the fourth best option we can sign could still be a significant improvement.

I should also note, I'm not even 100% against keeping ETH. If INEOS, Berrada and Ashworth feel that he actually can at least lay the groundwork for what they want, then I'm fine with seeing what he can do with a proper football structure around him. But if they don't think he's capable of that, it's ridiculous to keep him simply because you can't get your first choice.

 

[UTD_Since_1978]

Was it the 18/19 season where we were 6th every week for like forever? Because this season is looking the same.

 

[stefan92]

How long do we wait for that great manager though? One season? Two? Three?

You mentioned in another post that 'we'll be left with the scraps after Liverpool, Barca and Bayern pick the best of what's available, and we're better off waiting'. But there is two very big issues with that mentality.

Firstly, there's nothing to say that in 12 months time some of those clubs won't be looking for another manager. If the guy they sign fails, they'll sack them and try again. It's what well-run top teams do, not just stick with a known bad option because there isn't a 100% guaranteed successful option. There's a fair few rumours that Guardiola may leave City in the not-too-distant future, so they might also be looking the following season. Real might be looking, etc.

Secondly, if you believe that those clubs are more attractive to top managers, that will be because they are in a successful position while we are in a mess. If we believe ETH isn't capable being successful here, then we're still going to be in a mess in 12 months time or however long we wait. So we'll still be in a worse position that whatever top clubs are looking for managers at that moment, and will always be down the pecking order. Alternatively we replace him with a manager that can turn us around and get us in a better position, even if they likely can't take us all the way. That makes us more attractive to any high-demand manager we are looking at in the future, as they can then be more confident that they can walk in and be in a position to succeed.

Now obviously that doesn't mean we just replace ETH with any Tom, Dick or Harry. But even if we miss out on the top three options (based on your scenario of the other three clubs picking the best three), the fourth best option we can sign could still be a significant improvement.

I should also note, I'm not even 100% against keeping ETH. If INEOS, Berrada and Ashworth feel that he actually can at least lay the groundwork for what they want, then I'm fine with seeing what he can do with a proper football structure around him. But if they don't think he's capable of that, it's ridiculous to keep him simply because you can't get your first choice.

There is a third point you should also consider: All of these clubs are in a different situation right now. Which means they likely need (slightly) different skillsets and therefore will have different shortlists/favourites who should take over. United won't be able to get the manager who fits Liverpool best, but that manager probably would not even be the available manager who fits United best, so it doesn't really matter.

 

[Sarni]

At this point I don't even know what United are anymore to say if the current team is failing or not.

The final league positions just tell me they are a Top 6 yo-yo club.

23/24 - 6th (currently)
22/23 - 3rd
21/22 - 6th
20/21 - 2nd
19/20 - 3rd
18/19 - 6th

I think we are very lucky to be where we are this year, heavily outperforming our expected points and winning many games we should not have won. 6th is definitely not too bad for the level we have played at.

 

[redcucumber]

ETH had the style at Ajax that everyone wanted, unfortunately he found out after 2 games the players we have are far away from what he needs to implement that style.

Anyway, I feel like I'm going round in circles on this thread. I'm going for a lie down

He's bought over 10 players and spent £330m. He's been here for nearly 2 fecking years. Ange has got Spurs playing a very distinct way despite being there for less time having spent less money. How long do give him, and how much more money do we let ten Hag spend before we can expect to see some semblance of a plan?

 

[hobbers]

At this point I don't even know what United are anymore to say if the current team is failing or not.

The final league positions just tell me they are a Top 6 yo-yo club.

23/24 - 6th (currently)
22/23 - 3rd
21/22 - 6th
20/21 - 2nd
19/20 - 3rd
18/19 - 6th

The negative goal difference in March might be a bit of a giveaway that ETH is failing to degrees hitherto unseen.

 

[RuudTom83]

The negative goal difference in March might be a bit of a giveaway that ETH is failing to degrees hitherto unseen.

Giveaway the attackers are sub-standard if you ask me...but if we are honest I don't think anyone at the club can really be proud of themselves this season.

 

[Winrar]

At this point I don't even know what United are anymore to say if the current team is failing or not.

The final league positions just tell me they are a Top 6 yo-yo club.

23/24 - 6th (currently)
22/23 - 3rd
21/22 - 6th
20/21 - 2nd
19/20 - 3rd
18/19 - 6th

We should be aiming to win trophies and knocking City off their perch as SJR said, right? We've finished behind City for 10 seasons running on 11 now. This is not good enough.

 

[GMoore23]

ETH had the style at Ajax that everyone wanted, unfortunately he found out after 2 games the players we have are far away from what he needs to implement that style.

At Ajax he was spending like 10x more £ than most of his opposition. He couldn't implement it as the PL is too competitive for him.

 

[hobbers]

Giveaway the attackers are sub-standard if you ask me...but if we are honest I don't think anyone at the club can really be proud of themselves this season.

Dont forget who signed 3 of those attackers for a combined £220m, gave another one of them a monster contract to be the 3rd best paid player in the league, and made another one of them club captain.

 

[tjb]

Ten Hag came in with a stronger pedigree than those managers, so there is nothing to suggest they will necessarily out perform him once burdened with the expectation.
Our united performances this season has context to be added. Last season he got us top 3, 2 finals and 1 cup. I wouldn't say its unreasonable to say none of those candidates would better that in year 1, at best perhaps match it.

Ten Hag has also never had teams playing so openly in his career, so it's all the more reason to put this season down to a range of factors contributing more than poor coaching.

I honestly don't think he's pedigree is stronger. What's apparent is that strength of league is a factor that we might not have considered when looking at the football he played.

For me, I actually believe Ten Haag was the first appointment that we made using the right process of assessment. Unfortunately, it hasn't worked out for us, just like it has not always worked out for other clubs. His abilities didn't match what we thought we were getting. That doesn't make him a better manager than the other candidates that we're looking at, it just means that he's a lot poorer than we thought he was. Because we've been bitten doesn't mean we shouldn't go back to the market. For us to succeed, we have to. It's now the job of the executives that we have at the club to investigate the managers available and determine which manager to select. They can look into metrics, video evidence, interviews and reference checks to determine the right fit.

 

[stevoc]

If you have an unreliable car, why would you go out and buy another one? Makes no sense. You'd wait until the right car came up rather than bouncing from 1 unreliable car to another.

Potter has already had a huge job with over half a billion spent at the time and failed. No chance he can succeed at United.

As I've said already, unless we start being linked seriously to managers with the potential to bring united to the top, I don't see the point in changing.

Mate give me a break with analogies. Ten Hag isn't an unreliable car, he's a write off at this stage.

For me it makes zero sense to stick with a manager that has failed to such a low level this season.

We'll probably finish 7th-9th. It won't be hard to find a manager who could improve upon that.

 

[NLunited]

Are there precedents of managers struggling badly then winning the league? I can’t think of many that have done as badly as ETH this season before winning the Premier League.
In terms of getting it right; if we get the system above the manager right, then we should be able to move on from managers more easily without having to ever fully buy into them. We need to move on from reinventing the wheel each time we sack a a manager.
I think someone like De Zerbi could 100% pick up from where ETH leaves off and progress us.

I would prefer an ‚unproven‘ manager like Zebri or Amorim over Tuchel/Potter/failed manager at big clubs. Better to take a gamble on a promising manager then settle for something we don‘t really want.

 

[always_hoping]

Hopefully the stuff in the media linking Southgate to United is the usual speculation and guess work from poor journalists than any truth to it.

 

[saivet]

I agree with others that it's a lazy link but I think Southgate would prefer staying at England than taking over us. He's not had any club management in over 10 years (only 3 years of it at Boro), it's a pretty cushty job at England. He seems well liked by the players, staff and FA. He also has a very good pool of players and if he stays with England he has a better chance of winning a Euros/WC than United do at winning the PL or CL anytime soon.

The pressure on him at United would be huge too. Unless he was forced out by the FA, I don't really see Southgate opting to leave for United. The only other scenario way I could see him leaving is if the Euros are terrible for England or we win the whole thing and he calls it a day. In either scenario, I would expect the board to be clear on the management situation before the Euros.

 

[stevoc]

We're realistically going to be keeping a clear majority of our players. I don't see it as much from a "this player needs to go" perspective, more one where signing a good player in literally any position would be an improvement over what we have, so halfway competent squad building should avoid the "clean slate" thing anyway. We need quality everywhere.

That's conflating risk with result. Obviously we can't attach clear values to football managers but conceptually, something can have a 10% risk of failure and fail, and something can have a 20% risk of failure and succeed. If we've come to the conclusion that ten Hag has failed (and I'm not as anti as most people, but can't look past the evidence that our results are bad and the performances are arguably even worse, after two years), then the only logical thing to do is try someone else. It's unacceptable at this point to be as poor on the ball as we are.

This is it in a nutshell. I could excuse the results this season and persuade myself it's all down to injuries.

But in terms of play style we're worse now than at probably any point post SAF. We shouldn't be this bad after 2 years under a coach who was brought into implement a progressive style of play.

 

[CM]

Ten Hag came in with a stronger pedigree than those managers, so there is nothing to suggest they will necessarily out perform him once burdened with the expectation.
Our united performances this season has context to be added. Last season he got us top 3, 2 finals and 1 cup. I wouldn't say its unreasonable to say none of those candidates would better that in year 1, at best perhaps match it.

Ten Hag has also never had teams playing so openly in his career, so it's all the more reason to put this season down to a range of factors contributing more than poor coaching.

He came with a stronger pedigree but almost all of his appeal as a coach went out the window as soon as he admitted he has no interest in reproducing what he did at Ajax here at United. I could accept the teething problems we're experiencing now if we were building towards something and it was part of a grander plan. The reality is this season has been pure chaos and Ten Hag has leant into that rather than steering us away from it.

The remit of the next coach should be implementing a style of play which enables us to play positive, proactive football. Eventually we should be able to mix it with the likes of City and Liverpool without looking subservient. We've come nowhere close to that under the current coach. We've conceded more goals than we've scored in the Premier League this season after 27 games. We came dead last in a Champions League group containing Copenhagen and Galatasaray. We lost 7-0 to Liverpool in the second part of last season. There's nothing worth waiting for with this guy. The change is necessary even if you aren't entirely convinced by the pool of potential replacements.

 

[Steve Bruce]

Mate give me a break with analogies. Ten Hag isn't an unreliable car, he's a write off at this stage.

For me it makes zero sense to stick with a manager that has failed to such a low level this season.

We'll probably finish 7th-9th. It won't be hard to find a manager who could improve upon that.

It makes zero sense to bring in people like southgate/potter/De zerbi either. That is my argument. Pointless spending 10-20m getting rid of ETH and his background staff, to bring in any of those managers.

If we end up going for amorim or inzaghi(my personal favourite) I wouldn't be arguing about it. But if we're replacing ETH with other managers like ones I've outlined that aren't the answer and there's nothing to suggest they are, then I'm always going to argue it's a pointless exercise and we've wrote off at least 2 more seasons.

It's not hard to grasp but it seems people are so blinkered to want ETH out, they're adopting an anything will do approach and then when that goes to crap very quickly the same people will want to change that and continue the cycle.

I'd rather we make the best possible appointment with a manager we have a chance to succeed with, rather than rush in and sign a cert dud like Potter.

Frank is another we've been linked with. We're being linked with no one at the moment that would give me any confidence.

 

[Lyng]

Mate give me a break with analogies. Ten Hag isn't an unreliable car, he's a write off at this stage.

For me it makes zero sense to stick with a manager that has failed to such a low level this season.

We'll probably finish 7th-9th. It won't be hard to find a manager who could improve upon that.

De Zerbi is a project. Southgate is simply terrible and Frank isnt the required level. You say it isnt hard to find a manager who would improve us. I would love to hear who?
I agree with you that Ten Hag probably isnt the right one, but rather stick with him until the right choice is available then take a gamble and maybe set us back even further.

 

[stevoc]

De Zerbi is a project. Southgate is simply terrible and Frank isnt the required level. You say it isnt hard to find a manager who would improve us. I would love to hear who?
I agree with you that Ten Hag probably isnt the right one, but rather stick with him until the right choice is available then take a gamble and maybe set us back even further.

Depends what sort of football ineos want to play. But let's be honest we've been so bad this season that the list of managers who could improve on that wouldn't be short.

 

[Zoo]

De Zerbi is volatile and has much to prove. He’s flavour of the month whereas Graham Potter is seen as a dud. The latter took over from Chris Hughton and transformed their playing style. As for Frank and Southgate, no chance.

 

[stevoc]

It makes zero sense to bring in people like southgate/potter/De zerbi either. That is my argument. Pointless spending 10-20m getting rid of ETH and his background staff, to bring in any of those managers.

If we end up going for amorim or inzaghi(my personal favourite) I wouldn't be arguing about it. But if we're replacing ETH with other managers like ones I've outlined that aren't the answer and there's nothing to suggest they are, then I'm always going to argue it's a pointless exercise and we've wrote off at least 2 more seasons.

It's not hard to grasp but it seems people are so blinkered to want ETH out, they're adopting an anything will do approach and then when that goes to crap very quickly the same people will want to change that and continue the cycle.

I'd rather we make the best possible appointment with a manager we have a chance to succeed with, rather than rush in and sign a cert dud like Potter.

Frank is another we've been linked with. We're being linked with no one at the moment that would give me any confidence.

Why do you keep saying things like this as if people don't understand your point of view?

People are simply disagreeing with your point.

With a proper footballing structure in place and we can only hope that's where we're headed with ineos. The position of manager becomes less important compared to the model we've used under the Glazers where the manager is expected to be coach, manager, Dof, head of recruitment etc. Fergie mk2 basically.

Under the new structure I expect that we'll be quicker on the trigger in sacking failing managers as they'll no longer be able to point to problems above them as the reason for their struggles. And less maybe zero of the playing staff will be their picks. The club will be identifying the players the coach simply manages them. Going forward we won't have a mishmash squad of players bought by different managers for different styles.

Ten Hag at this stage has failed to a greater degree than what got all his predecessors sacked.

 

[Steve Bruce]

Why do you keep saying things like this as if people don't understand your point of view?

People are simply disagreeing with your point.

With a proper footballing structure in place and we can only hope that's where we're headed with ineos. The position of manager becomes less important compared to the model we've used under the Glazers where the manager is expected to be coach, manager, Dof, head of recruitment etc. Fergie mk2 basically.

Under the new structure I expect that we'll be quicker on the trigger in sacking failing managers as they'll no longer be able to point to problems above them as the reason for their struggles. And less maybe zero of the playing staff will be their picks. The club will be identifying the players the coach simply manages them. Going forward we won't have a mishmash squad of players bought by different managers for different styles.

Ten Hag at this stage has failed to a greater degree than what got all his predecessors sacked.

The way people are expressing disagreeing with my point didn't indicate any understanding of my point.

On your very last point. It's factually wrong. Moyes and OGS haven't put trophies in the cabinet. I'd certainly agree he's not been as successful as Jose and LVG however.

 

[izec]

De Zerbi has no credentials to be our manager. He may let play attacking football, but not necessarily successful. An Ukrainian league title with the best team in the league is his biggest achievement.

Southgate, Potter, Frank and De Zerbi are all midtable managers.

 

[TheReligion]

Came here to see who should replace Ten Hag.

Left knowing no one has a clue.

 

[SteveCoppellFan]

Can we not mention Southgate please ?

Just the hint of that suggestion will bring me out in hives.

Honestly, I would literally rather any manager instead of him.

 

[stevoc]

The way people are expressing disagreeing with my point didn't indicate any understanding of my point.

Yeah that's not what is happening though.

On your very last point. It's factually wrong. Moyes and OGS haven't put trophies in the cabinet. I'd certainly agree he's not been as successful as Jose and LVG however.

It isn't though. Jose and Ole got sacked for the teams performance/results in 18/19 and 21/22 respectively. Their previous seasons weren't taken into account.

We've been worse this season than in any season for decades. Winning the league Cup last year is irrelevant. Winning cups didn't save LVG or Jose.

 

[r0663664]

I seriously cannot understand why some fans want to keep him around. Everyone agrees that United is playing badly with no pattern of play, negative GD and losing so many games. Majority wants him gone and some trying to divert the blame away to the structure. I can understand if Erik did badly in his first season and the team perform better in year 2 as he is trying implement a new style of play and change the culture but it is exactly the opposite, our 2nd season is a lot worse. He had spent a boatload of money for 2 years and yet I have seen nothing to suggest 3rd season will be better. Are we going to give him another 150 mil? Sign Frankie De Jong for 70-80 mil with another striker for 50-60 million and pray we get back into the top 4. Are we sure FJD will be successful in the EPL? What if he flops on a 5 years contract? United isn't a team that needed 1-2 players to complete the puzzle. We probably need a 2 new CB, back-up LB ans RB, 2 new CM, 1 RW and 1 striker. Erik is not the guy to take us forward. Time to cut our losses with this fantasy that he will lead us to success.

 

[AshRK]

Fans would call for FDZ head at United with such performances. His football is too open and not sustainable for a top club unless he changes something.

 

[Bo_devil]

De Zerbi has no credentials to be our manager. He may let play attacking football, but not necessarily successful. An Ukrainian league title with the best team in the league is his biggest achievement.

Southgate, Potter, Frank and De Zerbi are all midtable managers.

This is a pretty flawed argument now, since the club has been so poor for a number of years. It doesnt really matter if they havn't wont anything, they just have to get the team playing, gelling, have players responding, make the right signings and have the right backing. With the right backing, and structure in place, a decent manager who's never won anything has more chance of being successful. What had Arteta won before taking over Arsenal? He's turned them into a very good team.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

That was shockingly bad.

 

[didz]

De Zerbi has no credentials to be our manager. He may let play attacking football, but not necessarily successful. An Ukrainian league title with the best team in the league is his biggest achievement.

Southgate, Potter, Frank and De Zerbi are all midtable managers.

He doesn't have a Ukrainian league title.

 

[Dec9003]

De Zerbi has no credentials to be our manager. He may let play attacking football, but not necessarily successful. An Ukrainian league title with the best team in the league is his biggest achievement.

Southgate, Potter, Frank and De Zerbi are all midtable managers.

If De Zerbi doesn’t have the required pedigree then neither does Ten Hag. Both have won a title in a league deemed to not be in the top five divisions. Ten Hag hasn’t proven he’s better than a midtable manager in the Premier League. He has to prove to us that he is good enough, the same way De Zerbi or Potter do.

Edit - De Zerbi has won a Ukrainian super cup, which is apparently their version of a community shield.

 

[Dec9003]

I would prefer an ‚unproven‘ manager like Zebri or Amorim over Tuchel/Potter/failed manager at big clubs. Better to take a gamble on a promising manager then settle for something we don‘t really want.

I think someone like Amorim could be an interesting option but I know little about him. I agree potentially with people like Potter but I think Tuchel is probably a higher calibre of manager currently than De Zerbi, Ten Hag and Potter. We’d have to be deciding which manager we think will be top a few years from now.

 

[reddev3]

Bologna vs Inter at weekend, winner gets the job?