Who is ETH criticising here?

Pogue Mahone

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“But the last half an hour, it was bad, a poor performance. They didn’t follow the rules at all, not in pressing, not in building up or when attacking.”

Didn’t watch the match but looks like the last 30 minutes featured our strongest possible lineup, so not ideal they pissed the manager off this much.

I guess Sancho and Antony get a pass, as they played more than just those 30 minutes. Who were the most obvious culprits?
 
I don't think anyone other than the keeper is in the clear, he made it clear we weren't playing as a team and something like the press or the build up does require input from everybody.
 
Was everybody obviously bad? Did none of them play well?

As a team in the last half hour I can't say other than Onana there was a single player that "played well", moments of individualism but shrouded by inconsistency unfortunately. Rashford held onto the ball too long, Hugill missed a glorious chance as did Antony although his work off the ball was a redeeming quality. Casemiro seemed to want to channel Bruno & Mount and play as a 3rd creative midfielder, Bruno felt sloppy and a bit out of sync, Shaw was sloppy also. In fact for the last 30 minutes I think Mount was at least tidy but I would prefer he play a bit deeper to support Casemiro further...

Nobody can come away saying I didn't deserve to lose, except from maybe Pellistri & Onana
 
The players must be knackered playing at odd hours. Remember a video from years ago in which Carrick was talking to someone about the US tours and the players not being able to sleep and not knowing what day it was. Not surprising they are struggling with the pressing and decision making.
 
The players must be knackered playing at odd hours. Remember a video from years ago in which Carrick was talking to someone about the US tours and the players not being able to sleep and not knowing what day it was. Not surprising they are struggling with the pressing and decision making.

I think Eriksen's interview if you watch his face was terming it politely about the travel but mentioned it a few times so I do think they are tired and don't take a lot from these games.
 
It's the same for everyone though. Not sure I accept that as an excuse really.
 
In the first 60 minutes, there was on the ground passing and pressing to dominate Dortmund. In the final 30 minutes, every player was trying to force the issue and play many aeriel balls. I thought they got tempted by the high line Dortmund was keeping.
 
The players must be knackered playing at odd hours. Remember a video from years ago in which Carrick was talking to someone about the US tours and the players not being able to sleep and not knowing what day it was. Not surprising they are struggling with the pressing and decision making.

No more than Dortmund or Barca, surely?
 
As a team in the last half hour I can't say other than Onana there was a single player that "played well", moments of individualism but shrouded by inconsistency unfortunately. Rashford held onto the ball too long, Hugill missed a glorious chance as did Antony although his work off the ball was a redeeming quality. Casemiro seemed to want to channel Bruno & Mount and play as a 3rd creative midfielder, Bruno felt sloppy and a bit out of sync, Shaw was sloppy also. In fact for the last 30 minutes I think Mount was at least tidy but I would prefer he play a bit deeper to support Casemiro further...

Nobody can come away saying I didn't deserve to lose, except from maybe Pellistri & Onana
The bolded part is my worry. I don't remember Mount crossing middle line, him and Bruno are so detached from Casemiro and backline I don't see how this is going to work in serious games. Obviously it's preseason but that seems to be recurring pattern. Even when Eriksen replaced Mainoo, he played deep and Mount was in advanced position.

It certainly seems like the plan is to go with #6 and two #10s. I fear we will see a lot of passing between Onana/Shaw/Martinez/Casemiro and but not sure how this is going to connect with the rest of the team.
 
Ten Hag said at the end of last season, after spending all season supporting his players, that De Gea wasn't the guaranteed number 1 and Harry Maguire had a 'choice to make'. So it was clear with who he was unhappy with back then and still is.

We've still got some shite in the team though, Dalot isn't good enough, Eriksen seems to have aged badly overnight, some of the other established professionals haven't turned up so far this summer. It's probably just a standards thing.
 
The bolded part is my worry. I don't remember Mount crossing middle line, him and Bruno are so detached from Casemiro and backline I don't see how this is going to work in serious games. Obviously it's preseason but that seems to be recurring pattern. Even when Eriksen replaced Mainoo, he played deep and Mount was in advanced position.

It certainly seems like the plan is to go with #6 and two #10s. I fear we will see a lot of passing between Onana/Shaw/Martinez/Casemiro and but not sure how this is going to connect with the rest of the team.

I actually quite liked Bruno as a deeper player at times last season and feel Mount is naturally more retentive than Bruno so would prefer Mount in the 10 and Bruno in the 8 but the goal has to be that they interchange at moments and drag players out of position.
 
The bolded part is my worry. I don't remember Mount crossing middle line, him and Bruno are so detached from Casemiro and backline I don't see how this is going to work in serious games. Obviously it's preseason but that seems to be recurring pattern. Even when Eriksen replaced Mainoo, he played deep and Mount was in advanced position.

It certainly seems like the plan is to go with #6 and two #10s. I fear we will see a lot of passing between Onana/Shaw/Martinez/Casemiro and but not sure how this is going to connect with the rest of the team.
It’s very important that one of Mount and Bruno drops deep and take charge of the playmaking burden as Casmeiro has his limitations. That’s the only way the one 6 and two 10s thing works.
 
It’s very important that one of Mount and Bruno drops deep and take charge of the playmaking burden as Casmeiro has his limitations. That’s the only way the one 6 and two 10s thing works.
That is the idea. I don't see that happening though. I also have real doubts whether pushing Bruno deeper is the answer to any question as a "system solution". First of all, Bruno is not that good at keeping the ball under pressure, and he tends to go for high risk-high rewards passes too often. Secondly, Bruno is the best creator we have and a good finisher, I'd imagine we want him close to the goal.
Mount IMO is better at it but still dropping deep is not his natural game.
 
That is the idea. I don't see that happening though. I also have real doubts whether pushing Bruno deeper is the answer to any question as a "system solution". First of all, Bruno is not that good at keeping the ball under pressure, and he tends to go for high risk-high rewards passes too often. Secondly, Bruno is the best creator we have and a good finisher, I'd imagine we want him close to the goal.
Mount IMO is better at it but still dropping deep is not his natural game.
I generally dont like Bruno dropping deep but last season he really improved in this regard so I think the idea is for that version of him with Mount, Shaw, Antony etc to all provide the creative engine.

i know what you mean as I’ve always felt we need a proper playmaking 8 but either we didn’t find one or feel this combination can do the business.
 
It’s very important that one of Mount and Bruno drops deep and take charge of the playmaking burden as Casmeiro has his limitations. That’s the only way the one 6 and two 10s thing works.

Not necessarily

City have Stones moving forward into DM alongside Rodri and carry the burden of building up. Liverpool have TAA inverted into DM next to whomever is playing DM for them already to help in that regard. Both teams don't require, especially City, their floating 8's (or 10's as you say) to drop back. The point is to keep them two players high up to maintain the pressure and pin the opposition back.

In the first half our retention and build-up was much better because Dalot did a good job inverting into DM alongside McTominay, which allowed Eriksen to not have to drop deep all the time to build. When AWB came on, he tried to invert, but he's not nearly as comfortable as Dalot in those central areas.
 
It’s very important that one of Mount and Bruno drops deep and take charge of the playmaking burden as Casmeiro has his limitations. That’s the only way the one 6 and two 10s thing works.
When we have the ball I think the idea might be for Martinez to step up and take that role (with Onana then stepping up and basically taking the role that Martinez was taking last season), rather than one of the 8/10's dropping. Or at least to spread the duties between them anyway. More of the playmaking and control duties coming from the defensive line, allowing our midfield to then play higher up and create chances and overlaps closer to the box. Shaw is obviously good at it as well, with Varane being good when he has time on the ball and Dalot comfortable as well.

Not sure if that actually is the plan, and if it is I'm not sure if it'll work, but it would help explain why we went for Mount rather than a more recognised playmaker. Of course the Amrabat links would indicate ETH wants both options.
 
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It happens a lot in games that have tonnes of substitutions...it totally kills any momentum in the the match.

So I wouldn't look to much into it.
 
Not necessarily

City have Stones moving forward into DM alongside Rodri and carry the burden of building up. Liverpool have TAA inverted into DM next to whomever is playing DM for them already to help in that regard. Both teams don't require, especially City, their floating 8's (or 10's as you say) to drop back. The point is to keep them two players high up to maintain the pressure and pin the opposition back.

In the first half our retention and build-up was much better because Dalot did a good job inverting into DM alongside McTominay, which allowed Eriksen to not have to drop deep all the time to build. When AWB came on, he tried to invert, but he's not nearly as comfortable as Dalot in those central areas.
Thanks, great point. I don’t know why my mind skipped these possibilities.
 
The players must be knackered playing at odd hours. Remember a video from years ago in which Carrick was talking to someone about the US tours and the players not being able to sleep and not knowing what day it was. Not surprising they are struggling with the pressing and decision making.

Does this not apply to both teams?
We are playing teams from Europe, in different time zones.
Personally, these are professional athletes and they have to adapt.
Other teams are adapting and so should we.
These excuses just don't wash with me.

In any case, this is pre-season, so the results don't matter.
My worry is that when the season starts, the excuses will continue rolling out.
 
Maybe Ten Hag should play a stronger team through the pre-season then? I understand it's about fitness as well but what is the point of playing Van De Beek, Maguire and McTominay when we are trying to get them out the door? On top of that playing pointless games like Wrexham that had no benefit to the club at all. The club has a lot to answer for with the pre-season fixtures this summer. It's been a mess and not exactly the best preparation for the new season.
 
I wonder how we'd fare if pre-season didn't involve jetting off halfway around the world and instead focused on the job at hand, which is to get ready for the season's football.
 
Does this not apply to both teams?
We are playing teams from Europe, in different time zones.
Personally, these are professional athletes and they have to adapt.
Other teams are adapting and so should we.
These excuses just don't wash with me.

In any case, this is pre-season, so the results don't matter.
My worry is that when the season starts, the excuses will continue rolling out.
Have you seen some of the results from other teams over in America this pre season?

Brighton have struggled, Arsenal beat Barca, goals galore (Villa, Brentford, Arsenal, Fulham etc all scoring for fun)
Mistakes plentiful in every game, a lot of the games played at walking pace.

The players in most of the games I've seen, not just United, have looked fatigued due to playing games and the amount of fitness work they have been doing.

Other teams haven't adapted at all, it's just part and parcel of pre season, do the hard work now to reap the benefits when the season begins.
 
Didn’t watch the match but looks like the last 30 minutes featured our strongest possible lineup, so not ideal they pissed the manager off this much.

I guess Sancho and Antony get a pass, as they played more than just those 30 minutes. Who were the most obvious culprits?
Sancho was the best player on the pitch along with Onana and Eriksen IMO.

Last 30 minutes when the starters came on was everyone lumping it to Rashford every touch while the first 60 we tried to play actual football and dominated the game barring a few mistakes in defence which were punished. Casemiro and Bruno in particular were guilty with forcing it IMO. Wan Bissaka was horrendous on the right as well. Antony scored but didn't play too well, but worked hard so don't think he was the reason.

Martinez, Evans, Shaw, Mount did fine pretty much and I don't think they were at fault
 
Have you seen some of the results from other teams over in America this pre season?

Brighton have struggled, Arsenal beat Barca, goals galore (Villa, Brentford, Arsenal, Fulham etc all scoring for fun)
Mistakes plentiful in every game, a lot of the games played at walking pace.

The players in most of the games I've seen, not just United, have looked fatigued due to playing games and the amount of fitness work they have been doing.

Other teams haven't adapted at all, it's just part and parcel of pre season, do the hard work now to reap the benefits when the season begins.

Yes but that doesn't explain why our B-side played a lot better than our strongest side (against worse opposition) - and yes I know they made 2 horror-mistake in the space of 2 minutes, but for 40 minutes they played really well
 
Onana will be integrated into the build-up, it will take some time for the rest of the players to get used to him and the new possibilities he opens up in that particular phase of the game, and he will also understand their strengths and weaknesses.

The same goes for Martinez and both FBs when Onana is to become one of the back three in the build-up. It (kind of) was a disaster-class at times with players not being in sync and not understanding when they should move away from the ball and draw opponents with them and when they should get in the right pockets of space to receive the ball. But it was the first time, outside training, we tried these things, so it can only get better from here.

It shouldn't come as a surprise, either, that the players (mostly the second string) who have had a full pre-season look to be a bit sharper. I also understand that Rashford is the best attacking option this team has in its ranks. But when he got on the pitch (along with the other first-team players), it seemed like everyone went bat-shit crazy... The long ball in-behind seemed to be the only pass available. No build-up, no midfield play, nothing. Just give the ball to Rashford. Oh... Rashford, who, by the way, has been working on his left foot. Plus, Antony, Bruno and Mount should get a better understanding of each other's movement in the final third.
 
Maybe Ten Hag should play a stronger team through the pre-season then? I understand it's about fitness as well but what is the point of playing Van De Beek, Maguire and McTominay when we are trying to get them out the door? On top of that playing pointless games like Wrexham that had no benefit to the club at all. The club has a lot to answer for with the pre-season fixtures this summer. It's been a mess and not exactly the best preparation for the new season.
ETH doesn't choose our pre season opponents...pre season is always a bit of a shambles, LVG used to complain about it because he wanted to focus on coaching not traveling non stop, unfortunately it is the reality of a big club.

As for choosing to play those players that is part of pre season; avoid overplaying the first team, hopefully create a good atmosphere in the squad not just the first XI, try out tactics and combinations we won't have time for in the season, put players in the shop window, assess some of the fringe players and those returning to fitness like Donny.

I think it goes without saying we open to selling a number of players but we don't NEED to, we seem ok for the season now. ETH is a very hands on coach, we have seen him improve a number of players, I am cautiously optimistic we have have a good season and then be in a position to challenge next season.
 
Maybe Ten Hag should play a stronger team through the pre-season then? I understand it's about fitness as well but what is the point of playing Van De Beek, Maguire and McTominay when we are trying to get them out the door? On top of that playing pointless games like Wrexham that had no benefit to the club at all. The club has a lot to answer for with the pre-season fixtures this summer. It's been a mess and not exactly the best preparation for the new season.
The first 60 minutes using the "B team" had them put in a very good performance where they fully dominated and played properly. A few dumb mistakes though between Williams, Maguire, McTominay and Lindelof where 2 got punished.

It was the strong team which played like shit.
 
Didn’t watch the match but looks like the last 30 minutes featured our strongest possible lineup, so not ideal they pissed the manager off this much.

I guess Sancho and Antony get a pass, as they played more than just those 30 minutes. Who were the most obvious culprits?
 
The bolded part is my worry. I don't remember Mount crossing middle line, him and Bruno are so detached from Casemiro and backline I don't see how this is going to work in serious games. Obviously it's preseason but that seems to be recurring pattern. Even when Eriksen replaced Mainoo, he played deep and Mount was in advanced position.

It certainly seems like the plan is to go with #6 and two #10s. I fear we will see a lot of passing between Onana/Shaw/Martinez/Casemiro and but not sure how this is going to connect with the rest of the team.
Which would be fine, if the whole team would try to stay more compact alltogether. Thats the thing, that is worrying me a bit. Adding more firepower is good and well and proably will work handily in a few situations because it is easier to press when you are high up in numbers. But it doesn't work, if the whole team isn't pushing up. Add to that, that Bruno still has the tendency, to release a trough ball not later than 1.5 seconds after getting the ball and nobody has to wonder, why as a team, it looks frantic as feck. I genuinely hope that ETHs comments about the last 30minutes indicate, that he considers this as a problem.
 
Yes but that doesn't explain why our B-side played a lot better than our strongest side (against worse opposition) - and yes I know they made 2 horror-mistake in the space of 2 minutes, but for 40 minutes they played really well
Probably because there were nearly 15 subs all told around the 60th minute mark which completely disrupted the flow of the game?
 
The players must be knackered playing at odd hours. Remember a video from years ago in which Carrick was talking to someone about the US tours and the players not being able to sleep and not knowing what day it was. Not surprising they are struggling with the pressing and decision making.

What?
 
At least that's the end of the silly tour. Needless travel.

We should stay in England some summer and see if it helps with preparation.
 
I think deep down, he is criticising each and every one of us.
 
There must be a shocking lack of discipline in the squad because I know the way we play most of the time isn't how ETH wants us to play. Too many individuals in that team who want to fecking freestyle and I think Rashford is a major culprit.
 
He said playing as individuals not as a team, so would presume it was directed at them all.
 
Didn’t watch the match but looks like the last 30 minutes featured our strongest possible lineup, so not ideal they pissed the manager off this much.

I guess Sancho and Antony get a pass, as they played more than just those 30 minutes. Who were the most obvious culprits?
I was saying it in the match thread. we were far too direct in our play with our first team.
Even Martinez was just pumping the ball up despite options in midfield, I reckon he's talking about Martinez, Casemiro and Bruno being the main culprits.
 
He'll end up with posters in the general thread moaning about his negativity if he keeps coming out with stuff like that.

Given the season is around the corner though it's good that he's clear on his standards.