Who is England's best player ever? (Forget Bobby Charlton)

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So in this endless debates about the list of best players ever I noticed that sometimes we might have been unfair to some English players, from the present or the past. Maybe I am wrong but didn't saw any England player on the list of the top 5 or 10 players ever.

As controversial as this debates always are, beacuse it's difficulto to compare players from different eras I created this topic because as far as I am concerned there was only one named in 2016 "Who is England's best player" probably related with the Euro 2016 subject, didn't took the time to read it.

I must confess that I struggle to give an objective answer for this. I am not going to be stupid here and say I know a lot about that first Ballon d'Or winner, a certain Stanley Matthews was the best ever, but when legends like Beckenbauer said this " the speed and skill Matthews possessed meant that "almost no one in the game could stop him" means something.

Or what about 1966 Ballon d'Or winner, a certain Bobby Charlton, who won it by a single point against a peak Eusébio, who arguably is the only player in his peak in Portugal who some might say was as good as CR7 if not better (62/68) or the third placed on that list was a certain Beckenbauer...

And what about Kevin Keegan, how good he was compared with the other 2 giants, again, not having watched much about him it's meaningless to say anything, but he certainly was on the list of best European players in the mid 70's until the beginning of the 80's.

As someone who doesn't have an answer, since I watch football the most notorious players from England since Italy 90 was the generation of Lineker, Barnes, Beardsley, Gascoigne, later it was Shearer, Beckham, Lampard, Gerrard, Rooney.

Will say if I had the chance to watch more things about him my favourite English player in the 80's would be Glenn Hoddle, after him from the great Marseille under Tappie would love Chris Waddle, and I am not ashamed to say the best midfielder I watched for United since the 90's was Paul Scholes, there's nothing close to him, reason why the Spanish players and the Guardiola type of fans always rated more him than Beckham, and he also gave me more pleasure to watch than any other English player.

Finally, there was a time when I was more obsessed with CR7 that probably made me being unfair to appreciate Wayne Rooney peak for United and England, it's a bit the same level of unfairness we had in Portugal regarding Nani for the NT compared with CR7 (not comparing Nani with Rooney, stay calm).

Is there anyone on the current England generation who can be compared with this former greats? I got to say that Harry Kane is a top player and certain things he does are great to watch, but don't know if without the big titles the great players must win he can be part of that list.

For the future I see lots of potential for Bellingham but it's soon to say how good he will be, thought the same about Sancho, even if for me the best England player in this planet and other galaxy is obviously Marcus Edwards, and I will not tolerate a discussion about this.

Explain to me who was the best ever, and why. Not with the same shit analysis by Messi vs Ronaldo fanboys, fed up with them, even if I was one of them, and toxic when I had to be.
 
Always thought the consensus was Sir Bobby is the greatest.
 
Bobby Charlton quite easily.

The only one who had the peak to come close to that level was John Barnes in the late 80’s but Liverpool lack of European involvement due to the ban and his performances for England probably put a cap on that.
 
Mason Mount, obviously. The masses will say Bobby Charlton and they would be wrong.
 
Most other candidates for this title have limited appeal - Michael Owen scores in a wide range of categories and offers many reasons for why he is the best ever English player.
 
I thought there was a consensus over Sir Bobby?
On International and British Media? Might be, but I never had the chance to see it stated as undisputed fact. Yeah @Mike Smalling forgot about Owen, might be strange for some that I liked more the types of Scholes than Beckham or Owen, but must be related with football tastes.
 
On a serious note, not that the topic intention wasn't to be serious, but Bobby Charlton must be the player who is regarded by the majority as the best ever for England.

I always had some curiosity about Keegan, but don't know if his international tournaments for England were good on a personal level... Barnes the more consensual player during the 80's perhaps?
 
On a serious note, not that the topic intention wasn't to be serious, but Bobby Charlton must be the player who is regarded by the majority as the best ever for England.

I always had some curiosity about Keegan, but don't know if his international tournaments for England were good on a personal level... Barnes the more consensual player during the 80's perhaps?

I always find it difficult to rate players before my time. I have no context aside from documentaries and what my elders have told me. In my lifetime Rooney has been the best English player.
 
Sir Bobby, by a margin.

Sir Stanley Matthews, while might have been a great player, it is very hard to know how great he was. His peak was before WW2 and just after it, when there is little to no recordings. He played no part in England 1950 where they actually got eliminated in group stages. He won the inaugural Ballon D'Or but that was more a career award rather than him being the best player in Europe (he was 41 when he won it).
 
On a serious note, not that the topic intention wasn't to be serious, but Bobby Charlton must be the player who is regarded by the majority as the best ever for England.

I always had some curiosity about Keegan, but don't know if his international tournaments for England were good on a personal level... Barnes the more consensual player during the 80's perhaps?
Sorry John Barnes shouldn't be anywhere near a list like this, if you want an English player from the 80's then Bryan Robson is a good bet, Keegan had some success but I always thought he was a bit limited,

Gazza is an outside bet, but for me it has to be Sir Bobby Charlton, if you talked football with any foreigner in the pre-social media/TV era than that's the name they would say
 
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Harry Kane in the alternate world where he won that League title for Spurs in 2016 and didn't sky the second penalty vs France
 
@WeePat Yeah, being a guy who loved watching Scholes to play it's far to say that for a while Rooney was the more consensual player of his era. At least after Beckham for the NT he was trully hated by the Media, so it might say something about his qualities. :lol:

@Red in STL Another one I forgot to mention, Bryan Robson, haven't watched much about him. But outside United fans is there a consensus he was better than Barnes or Keegan?

One thing that puzzles me is that players like Glenn Hoodle or Chris Waddle seem to be more appreciated on Continental Europe than in the UK. Ok Gascoigne in Italy 90 WC was well regarded as much in the UK as other parts of the World I guess.

No discussion about Bobby Charlton then.
 
Can't go wrong with Bobby Charlton. He has the best resumé. Arguably the most talented — could dribble, score and dictate the game with either foot, excellent on the wings or as a forward or as a midfielder. Part of the first English national team to win the World Cup (where he won the Golden Ball), part of the first English club team to win the European Cup (a decade after the Munich Air Disaster), top scorer and highest appearance maker for England at the time of retirement (subsequently surpassed by Wayne Rooney and Bobby Moore), top scorer and highest appearance maker for Manchester United at the time of retirement (subsequently surpassed by Wayne Rooney and Ryan Giggs), on the Ballon d'Or podium for 3 consecutive years, et cetera.

Runner-up: Bobby Moore. Followed by a trio of mythical legends who could not compete in the biggest global tournament on a regular basis because The Football Association rejected all World Cup invites from from 1930 to 1938 (and then you had the war): Stanley Matthews, Tom Finney and Dixie Dean — probably in that exact order. Then Edwards, Keagan, Greaves, Rooney, Robson, Ferdinand, Banks, Gascoigne, Linekar, Wright, Shearer, Rooney, Cole, Shilton, Beckham, Scholes, Lampard, Gerrard, Franklin, Kane, Bastin, Hapgood et cetera — some more so for their talent and club careers than what they accomplished with the national team.
 
As most have said, its Sir Bobby Charlton by a margin.


Who's England most talented player ever would be more interesting though.
Gazza does have the talent, but shamed he wasted it with alcohol and lack of disciplined.
 
Sorry to say this on a united forum but I'd give it to Gerrard. And thats not on his performances for England but looking at his career in general.
Gerrard best England player ever? Wow, that's a surprise to me. Always liked more Scholes tbh, but I know the discussion has always been between him and Lampard.
 
Sorry to say this on a united forum but I'd give it to Gerrard. And thats not on his performances for England but looking at his career in general.
:lol:

(yeah, I’m that lazy but I’m not even going to expand on my answer)
 
Runner-up: Bobby Moore. Followed by a trio of mythical legends who could not compete in the biggest global tournament on a regular basis because The Football Association rejected all World Cup invites from from 1930 to 1938 (and then you had the war): Stanley Matthews, Tom Finney and Dixie Dean — probably in that exact order. Then Edwards, Keagan, Greaves, Rooney, Robson, Ferdinand, Banks, Gascoigne, Linekar, Wright, Shearer, Rooney, Cole, Shilton, Beckham, Scholes, Lampard, Gerrard, Franklin, Kane, Bastin, Hapgood et cetera — some more so for their talent and club careers than what they accomplished with the national team.
Wow, I must be a Scholes maniac then. Was Glenn Hoodle underappreciated in England? Rarely see his name mentioned, even for 80's list of players.
 
Sorry John Barnes shouldn't be anywhere near a list like this, if you want an English player from the 80's then Bryan Robson is a good bet, Keegan had some success but I always thought he was a bit limited,

Gazza is an outside bet, but for me it has to be Sir Booby Charlton, if you talked football with any foreigner in the pre-social media/TV era than that's the name they would say
I think you may need to tweak your autocorrect settings...
 
It’s Sir Bobby by some margin.

Matthews, Finney, Moore, Greaves from that era… Barnes, Robson, Keegan, Gascoigne, Shearer, Beckham, Scholes, Gerrard, Lampard, Ferdinand, Rooney would be my standouts from the rest although not all of them truly challenge the GOAT.

Out of the current players I feel like right backs have a good chance of breaking into All-Time XI due to the lack of top competition. Kane individually probably could compete with Greaves/Shearer/Rooney but I feel like overall his career would feel like a huge disappointment due to stupid career choices.
 
@WeePat Yeah, being a guy who loved watching Scholes to play it's far to say that for a while Rooney was the more consensual player of his era. At least after Beckham for the NT he was trully hated by the Media, so it might say something about his qualities. :lol:

@Red in STL Another one I forgot to mention, Bryan Robson, haven't watched much about him. But outside United fans is there a consensus he was better than Barnes or Keegan?

One thing that puzzles me is that players like Glenn Hoodle or Chris Waddle seem to be more appreciated on Continental Europe than in the UK. Ok Gascoigne in Italy 90 WC was well regarded as much in the UK as other parts of the World I guess.

No discussion about Bobby Charlton then.
Being a United fan I can't comment on what others think but Robbo was England's talisman in the 80's, if he'd not been injured, IMO, England could have won the 86 WC, Maradona would never have scored the "wonder" goal, Robbo would have flattened him before he had a chance!
 
Bobby Charlton doesn't really have an competition

Without doubt.

It's pretty amazing to think he scored 49 from midfield, with only 3 of them as pens.

As a comparison Kane is 53 with 17 pens, but has benefitted from years of walk over qualifiers and friendlies.
 
Kane individually probably could compete with Greaves/Shearer/Rooney but I feel like overall his career would feel like a huge disappointment due to stupid career choices.
Even if we can say he doesn't look bad compared with Shearer, at least looking into their performances for England in the Big Tournaments. At club level Shearer does have that advantage of the title with Blackburn being a protagonist...
 
Being a United fan I can't comment on what others think but Robbo was England's talisman in the 80's, if he'd not been injured, IMO, England could have won the 86 WC, Maradona would never have scored the "wonder" goal, Robbo would have flattened him before he had a chance!
In 82 he had a good WC no? Rarely gets mentioned that England team in 82 actually went home without losing a game and they beat a great generation of France in the Group Stage.
 
Sorry to say this on a united forum but I'd give it to Gerrard. And thats not on his performances for England but looking at his career in general.
Some career that is, not a league title win anywhere, he's not even in the top 10 IMO
 
It’s Sir Bobby by some margin.

Matthews, Finney, Moore, Greaves from that era… Barnes, Robson, Keegan, Gascoigne, Shearer, Beckham, Scholes, Gerrard, Lampard, Ferdinand, Rooney would be my standouts from the rest although not all of them truly challenge the GOAT.

Out of the current players I feel like right backs have a good chance of breaking into All-Time XI due to the lack of top competition. Kane individually probably could compete with Greaves/Shearer/Rooney but I feel like overall his career would feel like a huge disappointment due to stupid career choices.

It's an interesting comparison on goals looking at the strikers when you take pens out of the conversation


KANE 53-17
ROONEY 53-7
SHEARER 30-6
LINEKER 48-4
GREAVES 44-0
CHARLTON 49-3

It's incredible how many pens Kane has benefitted from to boost his stats.
(Apart from the last one of course!!)
 
Sorry to say this on a united forum but I'd give it to Gerrard. And thats not on his performances for England but looking at his career in general.

What a bizarre thing to say. For a guy representing a team who never won a league title in his years, jammed a European cup on pens, and is in the same era as United boys who won 8-10 titles and a Euro cup or 2 themselves.