White civil rights activist pretending to be black...

The Corinthian said:
Thanks for the write up - although I don't agree with the rationale.

If we take gender as an example - for 97.5% of the world's population, they won't have anything internally that tells them there is a misalignment between their sex and gender. For the 2.5% - there is an internal misalignment. Regardless of what is going on externally, that misalignment will always be there. I understand that these individuals will have to factor in society, government, etc, this and that...but the internal aspect will be there regardless of the state of wider society.

With that being said - for certain individuals (a much smaller percentage I'm assuming), there is a misalignment between their race/ethnicity and what they identify as too. Again, that exists and will continue to exist no matter what shape or state society is in. I'd encourage you to read the interview with the guy who identifies as Korean as he literally says the same things a person experiencing gender dysmorphia says.

So, it goes back to my original question - why is one seen as abnormal and the other not? Both start off with a misalignment of the 'self' (although manifest differently).
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So are you arguing that these people should all be accepted as they are and helped, or are you using 'trans-racialism' to try to paint transgenderism as wrong? If it's the former then I think a lot of people wouldn't go that far, but good on you. If it's the latter, then that's why you're getting so much pushback.
 
The Corinthian said:
Thanks for the write up - although I don't agree with the rationale.

If we take gender as an example - for 97.5% of the world's population, they won't have anything internally that tells them there is a misalignment between their sex and gender. For the 2.5% - there is an internal misalignment. Regardless of what is going on externally, that misalignment will always be there. I understand that these individuals will have to factor in society, government, etc, this and that...but the internal aspect will be there regardless of the state of wider society.

With that being said - for certain individuals (a much smaller percentage I'm assuming), there is a misalignment between their race/ethnicity and what they identify as too. Again, that exists and will continue to exist no matter what shape or state society is in. I'd encourage you to read the interview with the guy who identifies as Korean as he literally says the same things a person experiencing gender dysmorphia says.

So, it goes back to my original question - why is one seen as abnormal and the other not? Both start off with a misalignment of the 'self' (although manifest differently).
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What's the difference between white people and black people?
 
The Corinthian said:
So, it goes back to my original question - why is one seen as abnormal and the other not? Both start off with a misalignment of the 'self' (although manifest differently).
Click to expand...

transgenderism has been documented for 1000s of years across multiple cultures, independent to each other, whilst being orders of magnitude more common than transracialism, so it's pretty clear why one is seen as more "normal" than the other
 
Tarrou said:
transgenderism has been documented for 1000s of years across multiple cultures, independent to each other, whilst being orders of magnitude more common than transracialism, so it's pretty clear why one is seen as more "normal" than the other
Click to expand...

It's also clear why some people are jumping on it. Usually this would just be a funny thing posted in the Hypernormalisation thread in the general, but suddenly a lot of people are intensely interested in comparing it to transgender.
 
Tarrou said:
transgenderism has been documented for 1000s of years across multiple cultures, independent to each other, whilst being orders of magnitude more common than transracialism, so it's pretty clear why one is seen as more "normal" than the other
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If you take transracial at its core - it's something that's happened throughout history as well. In the time of the Ottomans, the leaders of new lands conquered would send their kids to Turkiye in order to learn the language, and literally assimilate in the culture that was foreign to them until they were for all intents and purposes considered the other race (attire, language, and titles for example). It happened in Arabia over a 1000 years ago too...I mean, it's also in the Bible if you consider the story of Moses until he reverted back to his native culture - we just didn't have the term 'transracial' to articulate it throughout history.
 
The Corinthian said:
If you take transracial at its core - it's something that's happened throughout history as well. In the time of the Ottomans, the leaders of new lands conquered would send their kids to Turkiye in order to learn the language, and literally assimilate in the culture that was foreign to them until they were for all intents and purposes considered the other race (attire, language, and titles for example). It happened in Arabia over a 1000 years ago too...I mean, it's also in the Bible if you consider the story of Moses until he reverted back to his native culture - we just didn't have the term 'transracial' to articulate it throughout history.
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moses the transracial :lol:
 
The Corinthian said:
If you take transracial at its core - it's something that's happened throughout history as well. In the time of the Ottomans, the leaders of new lands conquered would send their kids to Turkiye in order to learn the language, and literally assimilate in the culture that was foreign to them until they were for all intents and purposes considered the other race (attire, language, and titles for example). It happened in Arabia over a 1000 years ago too...I mean, it's also in the Bible if you consider the story of Moses until he reverted back to his native culture - we just didn't have the term 'transracial' to articulate it throughout history.
Click to expand...

We already have a word for that, and you just used it. Assimilation.
 
maniak said:
C'mon mate, we have tons of countries passing laws to feck transgender folks over, it's still an oppressed minority in most places on earth, in some countries they are regularly killed. The suicide rates are above the normal population and even in more liberal western countries they are regularly victims of exclusion, violence and sometimes murder.

You think this has any parallel to people wanting to have a different race?

Two completely different situations with completely different impact on society. Trying to make them equivalent just serves the purpose of devaluing the one which is obviously more important to deal with.
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I'd be interested to see the research and statistics on the countries where trans people are regularly killed because I can't think of a country where they are regularly killed. I do agree, the recent spate of horrific right-wing GOP nut jobs in the USA seem hell-bent on leaning into a culture war moment. Using the excuse of pushback against the more extreme (and rare) parts of gender ideology to create grim legislation, not just against trans folks but on abortion as well.

I understand where Corinthian is coming from, albeit the comparison isn't linear not 100% applicable.
 
nimic said:
I very much doubt the people who get the most confused about trans issues are the ones who believed the notion that gender is a social construct we inflict on children. In fact, I'd argue that the people who were already receptive to the idea that gender is a social construct are presicely the sort of people who are more willing to accept concepts like trans, non-binary, gender fluid, etc.
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Well, it's confusing because it can be hard to verbalize how you feel like a different gender without using, what I was taught at least, regressive gender stereotypes.
 
Tarrou said:
transgenderism has been documented for 1000s of years across multiple cultures, independent to each other, whilst being orders of magnitude more common than transracialism, so it's pretty clear why one is seen as more "normal" than the other
Click to expand...
Could this be because 1000s of years ago people of different races rarely cohabited?
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
I'd be interested to see the research and statistics on the countries where trans people are regularly killed because I can't think of a country where they are regularly killed. I do agree, the recent spate of horrific right-wing GOP nut jobs in the USA seem hell-bent on leaning into a culture war moment. Using the excuse of pushback against the more extreme (and rare) parts of gender ideology to create grim legislation, not just against trans folks but on abortion as well.

I understand where Corinthian is coming from, albeit the comparison isn't linear not 100% applicable.
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https://www.brasildefato.com.br/202...ith-the-largest-number-of-trans-people-killed

They link the study in the article.

In Brazil a transgender person is murdered every 3 days, I'd say that's pretty regular.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
I think this study is flawed because 51% of those killed were sex workers, which isn't representative of wider society as this is the most dangerous job.
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Brazil is high on murders consistently - there was a report recently that showed that, on average, 4 women are killed every day which is absolutely mental - 4 Women Are Killed Every Day in Brazil as Femicide Persists (globalcitizen.org)

Shocking. I wonder how much of this is linked with Bolsonaro and the type of rhetoric he comes out with.
 
The Corinthian said:
Thanks for the write up - although I don't agree with the rationale.

If we take gender as an example - for 97.5% of the world's population, they won't have anything internally that tells them there is a misalignment between their sex and gender. For the 2.5% - there is an internal misalignment. Regardless of what is going on externally, that misalignment will always be there. I understand that these individuals will have to factor in society, government, etc, this and that...but the internal aspect will be there regardless of the state of wider society.

With that being said - for certain individuals (a much smaller percentage I'm assuming), there is a misalignment between their race/ethnicity and what they identify as too. Again, that exists and will continue to exist no matter what shape or state society is in. I'd encourage you to read the interview with the guy who identifies as Korean as he literally says the same things a person experiencing gender dysmorphia says.

So, it goes back to my original question - why is one seen as abnormal and the other not? Both start off with a misalignment of the 'self' (although manifest differently).
Click to expand...
We'll just have to agree to disagree then. If there was no cultural influence, the concept of misalignment, as you put it, wouldn't even exist. People would internalize it as a normal part of what it is to be human. We don't say a blonde person who would love to have black hair has any internal misalignment, it's just a thing.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
What? I don't follow?
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You said this: "I'd be interested to see the research and statistics on the countries where trans people are regularly killed because I can't think of a country where they are regularly killed."

I showed you a study, but you found problems in it, but even after removing the sex workers, which for some reason you say shouldn't be counted, that's still almost 1 person killed per week.

Before I spend more time looking for stats to show you, how many transgender people need to be killed for you to consider it a regular occurrence?
 
The Corinthian said:
I'd encourage you to read the interview with the guy who identifies as Korean as he literally says the same things a person experiencing gender dysmorphia says.
Click to expand...

do you think his testimony might be clouded by his income source, i.e., as an anti-transgender influencer?
there are many studies demonstrating health benefits of gender reassignment surgery. it doesn't seem that trans-korean's surgeries helped him. do you know if there is more widespread study of the outcomes of trans-race surgery?
 
berbatrick said:
do you think his testimony might be clouded by his income source, i.e., as an anti-transgender influencer?
there are many studies demonstrating health benefits of gender reassignment surgery. it doesn't seem that trans-korean's surgeries helped him. do you know if there is more widespread study of the outcomes of trans-race surgery?
Click to expand...

Which is fine but today transgenderism, many believe, is determined by self identification as gender is a social structure that does not require surgery. Therefore why would trans-race people simply not be able to self-declare their race without surgery and that be accepted and for them to be treated as the race they wish to identify with?


I don't think transracialism is a thing. Transgenderism undoubtedly is. But I also think there's more in common between self-identifed trasgendered and "transracial" peoples than there is between self-identifed transgendered individuals and transgendered people who correctly seek to address their real life medical issues through treatments that may involve surgery in some circumstances if the person chooses.

The principle of 'self identification as something is sufficient' is why those claiming nonsense such as transracialism will very likely win future legal battles as there's been a precedent set and I don't see how you deny it legal status simply because of suspicions of it being disingenuous. You can no more prove that than you can on basis of gender, sexuality or anything else.

Transracialism is clearly a nonsense to make a politics, anti-trans point. But I don't see how a legal protections extended on basis of self-identification can possibly say "but not that one".

And if it tries to I can't see why challenge to it won't be successful. It's taking groups, like with men and women, that have equal protection and rights under the law. Those that would claim they identify as a different age for example would face this obstacle as different ages comes with different rights and privileges from a free education to additional income through state pension.

Whilst the lived realities might be different, on paper legally gender and race are protected characteristics. Therefore you could no more argue transracialism is concocted to gain legal or entitlement advantages than those who sought to fight transgender self-identifcation were could. I mean, I'm sure they did but they lost.

Transgendered people are a persecuted minority but I can't think of a legal requirement for that threshold to be a criteria for recognition. As long as by identifying as something that wasn't 'assigned' to you at birth you're not seeking to gain additional legal rights or privileges then I don't see how the law can stop anyone transitioning by means of self-declaration only to anything they like. Which cannot logically exclude transracialism.
 
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maniak said:
You said this: "I'd be interested to see the research and statistics on the countries where trans people are regularly killed because I can't think of a country where they are regularly killed."

I showed you a study, but you found problems in it, but even after removing the sex workers, which for some reason you say shouldn't be counted, that's still almost 1 person killed per week.

Before I spend more time looking for stats to show you, how many transgender people need to be killed for you to consider it a regular occurrence?
Click to expand...
Your framing of my point is quite hostile, please take it down a notch. I see through what you are doing, especially your last paragraph.

It's not that I want to exclude SW, but this is a demographic that faces the most harm and for the average TW, using statistical outliers like this to make a broader point about society isn't ideal.

I was curious, is the deaths of one group, higher than other groups. Because if the rate of murders is similar across all demographics of women (cis, trans etc) then one group is not being under "more threat", and I use that term really sparingly, because it's 7am and I haven't had caffeine, than another.

A common point I hear is that statistically, TW are more at risk of being killed than CW. In Europe, a lot of that stats seems to show (unless I am wrong, which is usually the case) that the chances of being killed are the same, perhaps a touch less than cis women.

This isn't to disparage or reduce the harm faced when discussing this subject, that's not my point at all, far from it. I believe all women are under threat, but telling one group they are facing greater danger when (perhaps) they are not, does nothing but create a huge fear in a community that is struggling with mental anguish (gender dysphoria) and makes all discussions hostile.

Someone else made the point earlier that this is a thread for a different subject so I will stop responding on this as it's not thread appropriate.
 
https://blog.apaonline.org/2021/07/06/changing-identities-are-race-and-gender-analogous/

But do “transracial” people—those who identify as members of a race to which they have no recent ancestral ties—even exist? Many will be familiar with Rachel Dolezal (who still identifies as Black). But far fewer are familiar with the less-publicly discussed stories of people like academic Ronnie Gladden. Gladden presents as a stereotypically phenotypic Black man but self-identifies as a White woman. They write movingly about their identification as both transgender and transracial. Although the shape transracial identity takes today may be different, contrary to popular opinion, transracialism is also not entirely novel. As scholars like Lewis Gordon remind us, history is full of people whose racial identifications and classifications came apart from their recent ancestries. Moreover, Gladden is not the only person to identify as transracial, nor indeed as transgracial. Born White and male, Ja Du also identifies as transgracial, specifically as a woman and as Filipina. And to much backlash, British influencer Oli London recently shared their identity as non-binary and Korean. London has undergone numerous surgeries in an effort to align their public presentation with their transracial identity.
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Googled the term and this blog came up.

Then read this observations on Ronnie Gladden, a trans woman and trans racial person.

https://minnes1888.medium.com/authe...y-in-a-post-rachel-dolezal-world-631bd38c503f

Then followed this to an article from Angela Onwuachi-Willig in the NYT discussing that Race is a social construct.

https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordeba...ace-and-racial-identity-are-social-constructs
 
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berbatrick said:
do you think his testimony might be clouded by his income source, i.e., as an anti-transgender influencer?
there are many studies demonstrating health benefits of gender reassignment surgery. it doesn't seem that trans-korean's surgeries helped him. do you know if there is more widespread study of the outcomes of trans-race surgery?
Click to expand...
No (to your first question). The testimony I provided was from a few years ago. His weird views have only come out recently (and I think he is transgender or non binary himself).

What health benefits are there of gender reassignment surgery?
 
The Corinthian said:
What health benefits are there of gender reassignment surgery?
Click to expand...


https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36149983/

Both transmasculine and transfeminine groups were more satisfied with their body postoperatively with significantly less dysphoria. Body congruency score for chest, body hair, and voice improved significantly in 40 years' postoperative settings, with average scores ranging from 84.2 to 96.2. Body congruency scores for genitals ranged from 67.5 to 79 with free flap phalloplasty showing highest scores. Long-term overall body congruency score was 89.6. Improved mental health outcomes persisted following surgery with significantly reduced suicidal ideation and reported resolution of any mental health comorbidity secondary to gender dysphoria.


https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamasurgery/article-abstract/2779429

After adjustment for sociodemographic factors and exposure to other types of gender-affirming care, undergoing 1 or more types of gender-affirming surgery was associated with lower past-month psychological distress (adjusted odds ratio [aOR], 0.58; 95% CI, 0.50-0.67; P < .001), past-year smoking (aOR, 0.65; 95% CI, 0.57-0.75; P < .001), and past-year suicidal ideation (aOR, 0.56; 95% CI, 0.50-0.64; P < .001).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6546862/

The findings of the studies permit the conclusion that sex reassignment surgery beneficially affects emotional well-being, sexuality, and quality of life in general. In other categories (e.g., “freedom from pain”, “fitness”, and “energy”), some of the studies revealed worsening after the operation.


https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19359705.2021.2016537

Fifty-three studies were included. Findings indicate reduced rates of suicide attempts, anxiety, depression, and symptoms of gender dysphoria along with higher levels of life satisfaction, happiness and QoL after gender-affirming surgery. Some studies reported that initial QoL improvements post gender-affirming surgery were not always enduring.

https://journals.lww.com/prsgo/full...t_after_gender_affirmation_surgery__a.22.aspx

A total of 27 studies, pooling 7928 transgender patients who underwent any type of GAS, were included. The pooled prevalence of regret after GAS was 1% (95% CI <1%–2%). Overall, 33% underwent transmasculine procedures and 67% transfemenine procedures.
 
berbatrick said:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36149983/

Both transmasculine and transfeminine groups were more satisfied with their body postoperatively with significantly less dysphoria. Body congruency score for chest, body hair, and voice improved significantly in 40 years' postoperative settings, with average scores ranging from 84.2 to 96.2. Body congruency scores for genitals ranged from 67.5 to 79 with free flap phalloplasty showing highest scores. Long-term overall body congruency score was 89.6. Improved mental health outcomes persisted following surgery with significantly reduced suicidal ideation and reported resolution of any mental health comorbidity secondary to gender dysphoria.


https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamasurgery/article-abstract/2779429

After adjustment for sociodemographic factors and exposure to other types of gender-affirming care, undergoing 1 or more types of gender-affirming surgery was associated with lower past-month psychological distress (adjusted odds ratio [aOR], 0.58; 95% CI, 0.50-0.67; P < .001), past-year smoking (aOR, 0.65; 95% CI, 0.57-0.75; P < .001), and past-year suicidal ideation (aOR, 0.56; 95% CI, 0.50-0.64; P < .001).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6546862/

The findings of the studies permit the conclusion that sex reassignment surgery beneficially affects emotional well-being, sexuality, and quality of life in general. In other categories (e.g., “freedom from pain”, “fitness”, and “energy”), some of the studies revealed worsening after the operation.


https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19359705.2021.2016537

Fifty-three studies were included. Findings indicate reduced rates of suicide attempts, anxiety, depression, and symptoms of gender dysphoria along with higher levels of life satisfaction, happiness and QoL after gender-affirming surgery. Some studies reported that initial QoL improvements post gender-affirming surgery were not always enduring.

https://journals.lww.com/prsgo/full...t_after_gender_affirmation_surgery__a.22.aspx

A total of 27 studies, pooling 7928 transgender patients who underwent any type of GAS, were included. The pooled prevalence of regret after GAS was 1% (95% CI <1%–2%). Overall, 33% underwent transmasculine procedures and 67% transfemenine procedures.
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Ok so you're talking about solely mental health benefits. The way you worded it intimated you meant health benefits (i.e. less susceptible to disease or something I dunno) which is what I couldn't figure out.

So going back to the original point - have you read Oli London's testimony? It would seem he received the same mental health benefits as your studies -

In their video statement showing the results of their surgery - which includes a face lift, a brow lift, and work on their teeth - they said: "I know a lot of people don't understand me, but I do identify as Korean and I do look Korean now, I do feel Korean...

"That's just my culture. That's my home country. That's exactly how I look now. And I also identify as Jimin, that's my career name."

London said they understood there is "a little bit of confusion for some people" but after struggling with identity issues they finally "feel beautiful" and wanted to speak out during Pride month.

They said they had lived in Korea and speak the language and "have the Korean look now, I look completely Korean".
 
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