Rakitic is supposed to be planning to leave barca, although why when he's getting so much game time is a mystery. He'd certainly make bank either here or at city though. Vidal also rumoured to be on the move although again, pinch of salt required. Supposedly we've spoken to jorginhos agent. Any of those three would improve us, although in different ways.
Which midfielder should we buy to give Pogba more freedom
- Thread starter YouOnlyLiveTwice
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Hate to say it, but still my fav player, Gundogan. So neat and tidy in possession and passing.
He's said we're not signing forwards in the summer, presumably unless something changes in the meantime. Surprising but he generally tells it as it is regarding transfers. He has said that we need to spend on midfield though. If fellaini leaves then fabinho would make a lot of sense as a replacement since he's a good right back as well and darmian, frankly, isn't.
But there in is your problem. Pirlo and Vidal...we're not going to sign midfielders of that calibre in the summer. No one realistic of that calibre has been mentioned. If we did sign players of that quality, it would seem like a waste if the purpose was purely to get the best out of Pogba. Those are world class players in their own right. You don't buy them just to create a position for someone else.
Also, I didn't watch much of Pogba at Juventus, but there is definitely this out of control spiralling myth about just how good he was there. When I did watch him he had moments in games and would drift in and out, much like he does here. The consensus when we signed him from people who did watch a lot of Juventus was we were signing him based on the player he could develop into, not the player he was, who was not an £89m player. Now it is made out like he was signle handedly winning them leagues.
im actually gutted Schneiderlin didn't work out. Matic and him would, at least on paper look good. No idea why Jose didnt' rate him.
Only to you. Why would it be a waste if the others were also playing in their best positions?
What exactly do you want/expect from Pogba noods?
Do you want him to become a defensive midfielder? Or do you want him to play like he played against Everton, but more often? You cannot have both. Him being more defensively reliable has obvious advantages. In my opinion, we should play Herrera there instead then. If you are after a central midfielder to just do ‘the job of a central midfielder’, then Pogba is not your man. If when you sign a Pogba, you want regular performances like what you saw against Everton, just get off your high horse and get someone to the other stuff.
If he bothers you so much, perhaps we should just get ‘disciplined’ midfielders instead, and leave Pogba’s to the trophy winning clubs who have that bit extra.
Also, don’t start perpetuating a myth based on Pogba going for glory against Burnley instead of passing. All of a sudden you are trying to imply that he doesn’t pass, doesn’t create chances regularly etc, which is far from the truth. In the game you lambasted him for against Spurs, he created our best two chances, and far and away makes the most chances in our team, and possibly in the league. You deserve a Matic - Henderson midfield.
From the ones I have seen, Verratti and Kovacic fit the profile, given their quality and age. The Italian is almost unattainable, Kovacic would be a good purchase.
Modric would be my dream signing.
Think he can still do it at his age.
Reckon we will be binging at least 2 in.
Think he can still do it at his age.
Reckon we will be binging at least 2 in.
The thread is titled "which midfielder should we buy to give Pogba more freedom"...suggesting buying a player purely to allow Paul Pogba to play with more freedom.
We have other midfielders now. There is nothing to stop us playing Pogba in a midfield three. If we sign someone else JUST so he can, what happens if we do that and Pogba doesn't improve? It is effectively taking the responsibility Pogba has for his own performances, and placing it on someone else's shoulders.
Buying a world class player purely for this reason would be a waste and a dangerous thing to do. If you're going to fork out on one of the top midfielders in the world, it should be because you want them in the team based on what they can bring to the team, not based on trying to get someone else to play well.
What I expect from Pogba is the same as I'd expect from any of our other players. He needs to play with more maturity and professionalism and he needs to take responsibility for his own performance on a football pitch and the effect that has on his team. He simply does not do this.
Changing his position does not change that. What we have here is people trying to shift the responsibility Pogba has for his own performances, on to someone else. To the point of claiming we basically need to pander to him and sign players based purely on the fact Paul Pogba doesn't play well enough. Because Paul Pogba's performance and attitude on a football pitch can't possibly be down to Paul Pogba.
Do you think he was good enough against Tottenham? Or are you just pretending he was? He played terribly then had to be taken off because he was refusing to listen to his own manager. Think about that for a second. Is that an acceptable level of maturity? Forcing your manager to waste a substitution taking you off because you don't want to do what you are told to do?
The problem I have with this idea of needing to allow Paul Pogba to do what he wants, is that actually, all to often he already does whatever he wants. That's the biggest problem with Paul Pogba. Too often he cannot stick to a task or make the right decision in games because it isn't what he wants to be doing.
I don't know where this idea has come from that this all stems from the Burnley game. He's been at the club over a year and a half, and that kind of performance is far from a one off. No one is doubting the ability he has. His application of how best to use it is simply very poor. There is no magical position on a football pitch where this suddenly becomes unimportant.
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You buy top players to fit together in a unit, it's like if you have a Pirlo he doesn't function as well without a top box to enforcer like Vidal or Gattuso, so you get one to complete your puzzle. Pogba is part of a puzzle we are building, it's like Lukaku and the constant stuff about us needing someone to give him better crosses, you look for the pieces that fit to make a whole and accrntuate everything, it always sounds like you want Pogba to be a box to box in a 2 man midfield so you can have an extra attacker, he's never going to be that to the level required because it's not what he is.
But then you are looking for a midfielder to improve your midfield options and make your team stronger and function better as a unit. You are not looking for a midfielder to "give Pogba more freedom"
I do think we could do with another good midfielder, but a good midfielder in their own right. I see it as a separate issue to Pogba. It would help him in the same way it'd help other players in the team. It would not absolve him of the need to add a lot of maturity to his game that simply isn't there at the moment.
It's dangerous to think of it as " we need to do sign player x to free Paul Pogba"...I've never seen a player as free on a football pitch as Paul Pogba. Half the time it is like there is a completely different game going on in his head.
You are only looking at the negatives, when he was out we turned to dogshit, couldn't create and pretty much created the gap City had before they even beat us at Old Trafford. You are taking the thead title of a poster on the Caf so literal. the point is we need to be playing a 3 man midfield, we need a CM that will take some posioitonal defensive work away from Pogba and help Matic out while also proving a link to Pogba and the front 3, thus giving us an all round better unit, that's how teams are built, you find a system and set of players that compliment each other and accentuate the qualities of each other.
Well said, didnt know that he is turning 31 this year and with that in mind we should go for someone younger. But still, could be very good for us for about 2-3 years.
Crazy to think that we will be going into season 3 and still talking about getting players and a formation to help us get the best out of Pogba. I don't think there's any doubt he needs to play in a 3, just don't think Jose feels we have the players right now to do that. Maybe McT might get a shot, we certainly need someone in big games anyway. It's not just as easy as saying one more central mid and we are sorted though. That extra body in central mid, means more pressure on your full backs to be providing your width to a large degree. Shaw I think if he stays healthy can do it on the left, but we'd need an upgrade at right back.
We didn't turn to dogshit when he was out. That is reinventing things to suit an argument, and stetching the reinvention to its limits at that.
- The first six games after he got injured we scored 20 goals and conceded 2, and won every one.
- The game immediately before he got injured was a 2-2 draw at Stoke in which we did not play well at all.
- The only notably poor result during his injury was a 2-1 loss to Huddersfield. With him in the team we lost 2-1 to Bristol, collected 2 points from Burnley and Southampton at home, lost to Basle, etc.
- The only other teams we dropped points to while he was out, were Chelsea and Liverpool, both away from home...and we were more competitive in both of those games than we were with him against Spurs last week. A team who are below both Liverpool and Chelsea.
- We also beat Spurs without Pogba, during our supposed "turned to dogshite" spell.
- He got injured only 4 league games into the season.
So no, that's a nonsense. Sorry....and that's not an argument for or against him. It is just highlighting the silly levels of ignorance you are going to.
The thread title is literal for a reason. There is a general feeling on here among some people at the moment, that Pogba NEEDS to be "freed up" into some midfield three role, and that all that's not right with his performances will magically be resolved when this happens. It is simply a fantasy. It's not a sound basis on which to go and buy a player.
We do need to come up with a better solution in midfield against the better sides, and Pogba is very much a part of that...but he's a part of it in that whatever the system, he needs to start doing his job in it, as to best suit the team. He doesn't need freeing up. He needs to learn how to play as part of a team. All the time, in every game. Like any successful world class player does. Not just once every so often when he feels like it. There is no system or position on a football pitch where that is going to work.
It's not "only looking at the negatives" it is taking an objective look as to why Paul Pogba does not play consistently to the level his ability seems to suggest he is capable of. Instead of just saying "ah well sign another player and that'll fix it" or "It's Mourinho's fault"
Jorginho. Perfect player for us, can do it all. Fabulous passing range ( both long and short), vision, controls the game,so good in possession, great engine(runs all day), defensive cover , good age, also his passing accuracy is simply phenomenal especially when he plays so many long passes forward. Just watch him if u havent.
Kovacic will solve nothing or atleast wont bring the best out of pogba. Though i do like kovacic n think he will bring a lot of attacking impetus but he isnt a type of midfielder who can control and run the midfield , neither i think he is disciplined enough unlike jorginho. What we need right now a metronome type of midfielder who can control the midfield , keep switching the play, brings composure, play balls over the top ala scholes or fabregas , good in possession, provides defensive cover when pogba and co. is further upfield, bring the energy for 90 minutes etc. I simply cant think of anyone right now who can bring all that apart from jorginho. And tbh some of his one touch passing especially long passes are scholesesque. He is quite capable of orchestrating an attack quickly coz of that.
Other midfielders like kroos, modric, verratti are unattainable so i didnt bother to mention them. Jorginho will be sensational along side pogba and matic.
Kovacic will solve nothing or atleast wont bring the best out of pogba. Though i do like kovacic n think he will bring a lot of attacking impetus but he isnt a type of midfielder who can control and run the midfield , neither i think he is disciplined enough unlike jorginho. What we need right now a metronome type of midfielder who can control the midfield , keep switching the play, brings composure, play balls over the top ala scholes or fabregas , good in possession, provides defensive cover when pogba and co. is further upfield, bring the energy for 90 minutes etc. I simply cant think of anyone right now who can bring all that apart from jorginho. And tbh some of his one touch passing especially long passes are scholesesque. He is quite capable of orchestrating an attack quickly coz of that.
Other midfielders like kroos, modric, verratti are unattainable so i didnt bother to mention them. Jorginho will be sensational along side pogba and matic.
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Yep. Lampard was generally played too deep for England under Capello, but he was still turning in professional, competent performances. Pogba goes missing, and his apologists on here blame the coach, the rest of the squad etc when in reality he’s neglected his duty as a Manchester United player to contribute to the collective effort.
The thread should be ‘Which Player can replace Pogba?’
We missed his creativity badly in his abscence, the stats don't alter that, it was a discussion point after every game while he was out, even the other day aganist Huddersfield we were lacking anything from the midfield until he came on.
The problem here is you aren't objective, you are like Souness, you want Pogba to be more defensively responsible, he's never going to be that, take a look at Zidane at Real Madrid, Capello played him from the left to negate the need for him to be more defensively acute. He needs to make better choices in the final 3rd at times but he also creates the bulk of our chances, so he does more right than wrong in this regard. Pogba will continue to be what he is while trying to force him into a 2 man midfield, because he's not a pure CM, your argument makes no sense as buying a top 3rd CM will not only add quality to that area of the pitch, it will aid the team balance, it will allow Pogba to focus more on what he does best and also help Matic who lacks legs, that's good team building that you are pointlessly trying to turn into something else.
The issue of him taking responsibility and being more team conscious still likely comes down to the same thing - being more defensively astute, and in a midfield two, the level of defensive awareness that needs to apply is high. Formation and position is totally an important factor here. He simply doesn’t have these qualities. He very obviously has other ones though. He’s not the only player in football Not Beat suited to playing in a pair. The group of players suited to playing in one away to Spurs is even bigger.
I am not pretending he was good against Spurs. He was below par. I also don’t think he was given the best conditions to be good. And before you bang on again as to why Pogba can’t just ‘follow instructions’ or ask why ‘a manager needs to make all these considerations because of Paul Pogba’ - perhaps you should analyse pretty much every other top team and how they construct a midfield. Playing Matic and Silva as a pair would be stupid, for example. Not because Silva is short - playing Matic and Kante together won a league title. I could go on about all the players with somewhat similar strengths and weaknesses to Pogba who are not best suited to a two.
The fact is, not having the defensive nous to play in a pair (away at Spurs no less) is not a crime. There are thankfully other places on a football pitch to play, and Pogba’s skill set is better suited there. You may feel it is so ridiculous to buy players to allow such a system, but in that case, the ridiculousness started with buying Pogba in the first place. It isn’t as if he had been successfully playing in a pair at Juventus, and then he is failing to do it to a high level at United. He hasn’t demonstrated the ability to do what is being asked of him before. He has demonstrated other abilities though.
The issue with the Burnley game is it presented an example of Pogba not passing when he logically should have. I personally understand why he didn’t, and think many players wouldn’t have in that particular situation. It happens all the time on a football pitch - after a certain level of approach play, the likelihood is the player will take the shot for the opportunity to score a memorable goal. It’s the reason you didn’t see Maradona or Messi look up at the end of their iconic goals. If you are excluding that game, which it appears you are trying to argue, then I don’t see much strength behind you continuing the implication that Pogba persistently makes the wrong and selfish choice. This is not true, generally speaking. He did it in the Super Cup under the same circumstances, but time and time again this season he has shown creativity on an elite level.
You seem not to be able to appreciate a maverick in the team, and would probably be better appreciative of a Butt-Fletcher midfield. They will at least follow instructions and make sensible decisions.
We should try to get Saul from Atletico. He would be a great fit in midfield.
If not, then maybe Rabiot from PSG. His contract is up in 2019, so perhaps PSG would be willing to sell in the summer.
If not, then maybe Rabiot from PSG. His contract is up in 2019, so perhaps PSG would be willing to sell in the summer.
Cheeky bid for Kante anyone?
Great post, I think the Spurs game was also good to show the contrast in how they use Dele, Pochettino knows he can't be trusted in a midfield 2 so he's always the free man, he'll press and drop in and help off the ball the same as Pogba does in a 3, but he's not tactically required to show defensive discipline, Benitez did the exact same thing at Liverpool with Gerrard, they had maverick attacking CM's and set the team up to best utilize them, yet somehow that is seen as a mistake for us to do the same with Pogba, by some.
Likewise if you look at Pirlo in his Milan and Juve eras, he's one of the best DLP's ever but he'd be screwed if asked to operate in a 2, in both systems he has the legs of Gattuso/Seedorf and Vidal/Pogba respectively to cover the ground in front and around him, creating the Quarterback pocket so to speak, for him to effect the game, there's nothing unusual about setting your team up and buying players that will enhance the performances of your best players and create a good team balance.
Good post, couldn't agree more, unfortunately it won't register with some people.
The player we need changes based on who we have as our holding midfielder. Right now with have Matic, but we've also been linked to Jorginho who would surely rotate with Matic.
When using Matic:
As for the box-to-box option, Arturo Vidal would be available for approximately €40m in the summer but has adrinking problems and knee injuries afaik. Radja Naingollan is another option but seems to want to stay at Roma, and also doesn't take care of his body as he smokes. Milinkovic-Savic would be a good choice but would cost around €100m making it difficult to sign both he, a DLP and full-backs.
Mourinho has tough decisions to make, and our budget seemingly being roughly around £150m each summer will make it difficult to get the 3-4 players he still needs. Unless we get lucky and McTominay proves capable at a high level in which case maybe we only need one mdifielder.
When using Matic:
Pogba - Playmaker
Matic
If we sign a DLP:Matic
Pogba - B2B
DLP
I'm not currently aware of any available, high quality players to be our playmaking #8. Pjanic is probably close to ideal but I don't think we can sign him. Also, Juventus wouldn't sell us two players in one window and I believe that we will target Alex Sandro for our left-back problem anyway. Maybe Modric if Real Madrid decide to make wholesale changes to their squad but I doubt it. Possibly Nice's Jean Michael Serï but he's small and lacks defensive nous which would hurt us given we play Pogba too.DLP
As for the box-to-box option, Arturo Vidal would be available for approximately €40m in the summer but has adrinking problems and knee injuries afaik. Radja Naingollan is another option but seems to want to stay at Roma, and also doesn't take care of his body as he smokes. Milinkovic-Savic would be a good choice but would cost around €100m making it difficult to sign both he, a DLP and full-backs.
Mourinho has tough decisions to make, and our budget seemingly being roughly around £150m each summer will make it difficult to get the 3-4 players he still needs. Unless we get lucky and McTominay proves capable at a high level in which case maybe we only need one mdifielder.
Good post
The problem we have is Mourinho seems to have a fascination with the 4-2-3-1. If we had a world beater as a number 10 then that would be understandable. But I think the issue here is that Mourinho doesn't want to drop Lingard due to his good goal scoring form and doesn't want to be seen to unjustly drop a academy graduate. Lingard has done well and is a good option as a squad player long term. But if we want to challenge for the league and UCL then Mourinho needs to show his ruthlessness.
Lingard's form is one reason why he likely perists with the 4-2-3-1 and I think Mata is a player he likes to feature quite often to help add some control to games, so I think he's struggling to find the balance, and then when you add in the fact he seems to have soured on Herrera, we lack options for the 3rd CM. This summer though should be all about midfield, adding two CM's in and then let the forwards fight it out for the front 3 spots.
Cheeky bid for Kante anyone?
Nothing ventured, nothing gained...!
You never know, stranger things have happened...haha
Kante would have been a fantastic signing for us, how did we allow him to go to Chelsea...
Definitely is. I'm actually convinced his brilliant goal against Yeovil may have influenced the lineup vs Spurs. Fellaini hadn't even traveled and I was certain he was being lined up to start at Wembley.
How is United's relationship with Mendes these days? Has it suffered irreparably since Raiola has taken over Utd's transfer dealings? Else I could see Ruben Neves as a good shout.
Cheeky bid for Kante anyone?
Nothing ventured, nothing gained...!
You never know, stranger things have happened...haha
Kante would have been a fantastic signing for us, how did we allow him to go to Chelsea...
Kante would be good signing only if we replace Matic with somebody like Jorginho or Weigl otherwise it would make us ultra reliant on Pogba for any sort of creativity in midfield.
It's just a press and some fans narrative. Btw, Mendes is Jose's agent too, so shouldn't be a problem.
Marvellous post. A+.
Zero chance we get Kante. Just like there's zero chance City get Hazard. Chelsea aren't that club.
The world cup may showcase some interesting talents although Jose has indicated he wants to get his business done early. I imagine we might look around for players bigger clubs may discard - Normally dislike that but on a short term deal Vidal, Modric, bah god Iniesta...If they were to become available I could see big time Ed being all over them.
I'd rather we went after a younger player who can get around the pitch but we need two midfielders anyways.
Fabinho, Kovacic, Sergej, Serri - All different types but I think they're all realistic targets who would help the side instantly. I'd take any of Madrid's CM's to be honest. Criminal how they're wasting away Marcos Llorente and Dani Ceballos.
The world cup may showcase some interesting talents although Jose has indicated he wants to get his business done early. I imagine we might look around for players bigger clubs may discard - Normally dislike that but on a short term deal Vidal, Modric, bah god Iniesta...If they were to become available I could see big time Ed being all over them.
I'd rather we went after a younger player who can get around the pitch but we need two midfielders anyways.
Fabinho, Kovacic, Sergej, Serri - All different types but I think they're all realistic targets who would help the side instantly. I'd take any of Madrid's CM's to be honest. Criminal how they're wasting away Marcos Llorente and Dani Ceballos.
Very good post.
70m bid for Kroos.
I've always liked Ruben Neves, I can't believe he is at Wolves. How did they manage that?
He scored a cracker the other day against Sheffield United too.
Barely enough for one of his legs I reckon.
70m for a Real Madrid star Toni Kroos who have contract until 2022? You can double that and even then they would not consider it.