Where has the notion that ETH isn't a possession manager come from?

[Adnan]

He just doesn't have the players at his disposal in the defensive third to effectively play out from the back. And hence he has to compromise on his methods which aren't to keep possession but rather to implement positional play in a vertical axis. And possession of the ball is a by-product of positional play. And when the idea is to implement positional play with clear emphasis on ball progression (vertical passing) against teams who are adept at applying a off the ball pressing game you need players in the defensive third who are technically (first touch/ball control-passing) of a very high quality to circumnavigate the opponent's off the ball pressing structure. We don't have those players and hence EtH is having to compromise on his preferred method of attack. And it's why the attack is initiated from the keeper in such a school of thought, who should provide the first numerical superiority due to him being the spare man in the defensive third, and the defence starts from the players furthest forward. Everyone attacks and everyone defends.

The short vid below from the Betis game clearly demonstrates imo that our keeper is a big issue when it comes to hindering us in possession which invites the opponent to advance forward which costs us minutes on the ball each time he gives the ball away cheaply. He's not the only issue in the defensive third either, which complicates matters further.



The big difference between Guardiola and ten Hag when it comes to positional play is that Guardiola will look to build play in a measured way upon winning the ball back via the press/counter press and ten Hag will look to go for the jugular by going for the kill and not giving the opponent time to reset their defensive structure. That will result in a Guardiola team having more possession but i'm not sure if that's more effective than attempting to go direct for goal due to the opposition being in a vulnerable state defensively upon losing the ball, which opens up space for the counter.

Arteta at Arsenal, joined the club as head coach in December, 2019. And if we look back at his tenure from seasons 2020/21 and 2021/22, where they finished 8th and 5th. Arteta was making the changes to his team by signing Ramsdale and Partey to improve his first phase play and also signed Odegaard to improve upon the middle and final third play. And when you have players like Ramsdale and Partey who are signed to aid the build up and Odegaard to aid the second phase by way of his ability to carry/dribble and combine and connect, then you will have added key components to the existing team to carry out a task which will look to exert dominance over the opponent.

Below demonstrates the difference between Arteta's first two full seasons at the club. The first full season they played a higher volume of passes which wasn't effective and the second full season was about making less passes and but being more effective with those passes. And remember, Arteta joined Arsenal in December, 2019 and already had possibly a superior keeper in Leno to build upon as far as the positional play principles are concerned. They've improved further in the current season.

Arsenal	2020/21	2021/22
Passes per game	468.5	423.9
Pass Completion %	83.6%	82.6%
Possession %	53.8%	53.2%
Open-play xT	1.21	1.41
Open-play xG	1.29	1.42
Passes into Penalty Area	8.95	9.16

 

[kaku06]

Yeah, on the Caf I often encounter this 'Guardiola teams are dull to watch' thing and it's bizarre. We're talking about a team that scored over 100 league goals twice, and yet to finish a Premier League season without scoring at least 80. If we played that kind of football with the same results, people, myself included, would be creaming themselves non-stop.

It’s the repetition of the same things over and over again, pinning the opponents back, playing the same passes same moves resulting into familiar type of goals week in week out that makes it a bit dull to be honest whether it’s the overlap or the cutback or de Bruyne crossing into the box. Not that I find it boring but I can understand why people do.

 

[Ramshock]

I randomly noticed three different posters make this point across three pages of the same thread.





This is pretty bizarre as in my eyes ETH is very obviously a possession-orientated manager, just one that has been forced to compromise a lot of principles this season due to limitations in the squad. The idea his Ajax were a transition team in particular is just.... odd.

Is this an actual opinion that widely exists within the fanbase? Or is it just the niche wrong opinion of three random posters that doesn't actually warrant a new thread?

From fecking morons Sully, just fecking morons

 

[Ole's screen]

Urgh. Every top team excels at possession play. Klopp’s best Liverpool teams, Barcelona, Madrid , Bayern, PSG and now Arsenal all know how to dominate possession and play high quality keep ball (PSG is a stretch). This idea that possession=Pep is completely wrong.

If we want to be a top class team we have to be able to do it whether you personally like it or not.

Obviously being able to have spells of possession and build up moves and being patient are all critical and none of them are the hallmarks of “possession football” on the way OP is talking about.

I’m talking about about the Ajax/Barcelona school of total football style possession football that Pep champions, that people may have expected ETH to also ideologically adhere to because he came as a former Ajax manager. It’s that bit I’m not sure ETH was ever that tied too. He’s much more flexible, and I like him much more for it.

 

[NLunited]

The short answer is yes, he is a possession style football manager. Just like LvG he is not dogmatic about it and adjusts the style to suit the players he has.

In the long run Ten Hag will want us to be more comfortable playing out the back and being able to kill a game with possession when we are up.

Above all, he wants to win.

 

[Grande]

He just doesn't have the players at his disposal in the defensive third to effectively play out from the back. And hence he has to compromise on his methods which aren't to keep possession but rather to implement positional play in a vertical axis. And possession of the ball is a by-product of positional play. And when the idea is to implement positional play with clear emphasis on ball progression (vertical passing) against teams who are adept at applying a off the ball pressing game you need players in the defensive third who are technically (first touch/ball control-passing) of a very high quality to circumnavigate the opponent's off the ball pressing structure. We don't have those players and hence EtH is having to compromise on his preferred method of attack. And it's why the attack is initiated from the keeper in such a school of thought, who should provide the first numerical superiority due to him being the spare man in the defensive third, and the defence starts from the players furthest forward. Everyone attacks and everyone defends.

The short vid below from the Betis game clearly demonstrates imo that our keeper is a big issue when it comes to hindering us in possession which invites the opponent to advance forward which costs us minutes on the ball each time he gives the ball away cheaply. He's not the only issue in the defensive third either, which complicates matters further.



The big difference between Guardiola and ten Hag when it comes to positional play is that Guardiola will look to build play in a measured way upon winning the ball back via the press/counter press and ten Hag will look to go for the jugular by going for the kill and not giving the opponent time to reset their defensive structure. That will result in a Guardiola team having more possession but i'm not sure if that's more effective than attempting to go direct for goal due to the opposition being in a vulnerable state defensively upon losing the ball, which opens up space for the counter.

Arteta at Arsenal, joined the club as head coach in December, 2019. And if we look back at his tenure from seasons 2020/21 and 2021/22, where they finished 8th and 5th. Arteta was making the changes to his team by signing Ramsdale and Partey to improve his first phase play and also signed Odegaard to improve upon the middle and final third play. And when you have players like Ramsdale and Partey who are signed to aid the build up and Odegaard to aid the second phase by way of his ability to carry/dribble and combine and connect, then you will have added key components to the existing team to carry out a task which will look to exert dominance over the opponent.

Below demonstrates the difference between Arteta's first two full seasons at the club. The first full season they played a higher volume of passes which wasn't effective and the second full season was about making less passes and but being more effective with those passes. And remember, Arteta joined Arsenal in December, 2019 and already had possibly a superior keeper in Leno to build upon as far as the positional play principles are concerned.

Arsenal	2020/21	2021/22
Passes per game	468.5	423.9
Pass Completion %	83.6%	82.6%
Possession %	53.8%	53.2%
Open-play xT	1.21	1.41
Open-play xG	1.29	1.42
Passes into Penalty Area	8.95	9.16

I would think Varane, Martinez, Shaw and Casemiro all have first control and passing ability at a very high level when playing out from the back. I think our playing out from the back will improve as patterns are more integrated over time, but I’m not sure a new keepr/RB is going to make as big a difference as I previously suspected. Dalot and Wan Bissaka have both generally been better on the ball than expected this season. De Gea has had a few stinkers this season, but generally not been bad with his feet.

Casemiro and Eriksen has been good for us, and Fred, McTom Sabitzer may be improved upon but that will not improve us greatly as a team. I feel where we are most vulnerable, is in the attacking players attacking and defensive output, which is partly to do with attacking patterns taking longer to implement than defensive patterns, lack of a consistent top class striker, and neither Antony, Sancho or Garnacho, for various reasons, delivering at the level of Rashford and Bruno. Also our high press is now good (seldom fantastic) under most conditions of play, it is still very vulnerable to twists in the conditions, like we saw vs Liverpool (dissolved) and So’ton (couldn’t be risked at home against a bottom three opponent). This is also due to time, and probably too many attacking players with challenges in disciplined defensive organization (Bruno, Fred and Antony all have intensity, but overcommits and leaves holes frequently; Rashford, Sancho and Martial lacks that kind of intensity; Garnacho lacks positional understanding as of yet in this part of the game).

It has been good enough to control and win a whole heap of games, but if we’re going to consistently look likely to score two goals more than the opposition, as City and Pool have done for large spells, I suspect it’s the furthermost part of our team where the biggest strides could be made.

 

[Adnan]

I would think Varane, Martinez, Shaw and Casemiro all have first control and passing ability at a very high level when playing out from the back. I think our playing out from the back will improve as patterns are more integrated over time, but I’m not sure a new keepr/RB is going to make as big a difference as I previously suspected. Dalot and Wan Bissaka have both generally been better on the ball than expected this season. De Gea has had a few stinkers this season, but generally not been bad with his feet.

Casemiro and Eriksen has been good for us, and Fred, McTom Sabitzer may be improved upon but that will not improve us greatly as a team. I feel where we are most vulnerable, is in the attacking players attacking and defensive output, which is partly to do with attacking patterns taking longer to implement than defensive patterns, lack of a consistent top class striker, and neither Antony, Sancho or Garnacho, for various reasons, delivering at the level of Rashford and Bruno. Also our high press is now good (seldom fantastic) under most conditions of play, it is still very vulnerable to twists in the conditions, like we saw vs Liverpool (dissolved) and So’ton (couldn’t be risked at home against a bottom three opponent). This is also due to time, and probably too many attacking players with challenges in disciplined defensive organization (Bruno, Fred and Antony all have intensity, but overcommits and leaves holes frequently; Rashford, Sancho and Martial lacks that kind of intensity; Garnacho lacks positional understanding as of yet in this part of the game).

It has been good enough to control and win a whole heap of games, but if we’re going to consistently look likely to score two goals more than the opposition, as City and Pool have done for large spells, I suspect it’s the furthermost part of our team where the biggest strides could be made.

A play style is only as effective as the players one has at his disposal. And you have to ask yourself, if ten Hag is making compromises to his preferred method of play. Then where is he making those compromises and how do those compromises effect the collective as whole.

And if the aim is to build play from the back via building play through the thirds, then the goalkeeper absolutely has to be a net positive at creating the first superiority due to him being the player that has the time to break the opponent's press. And if a keeper isn't of the requisite standard on the ball, then compromises will have to be made until a more suitable keeper is brought in for the playstyle in question. I have no doubt, that a keeper with ability on the ball will make a difference to our build up play, which is currently not of the requisite standard. He's obviously not the only problem and upgrades are required in CM and RB aswell if the aim is to challenge the best teams domestically and in Europe for the highest honours.

When the first phase is compromised within the playstyle in question, then that will also blunt the players in most advanced areas of the pitch when it comes to creating attacking sequences higher up the pitch and also applying off the ball pressure higher up the pitch. Because if the players in the first phase are unable to effectively build play through the thirds, then that will result in the collective not being able to play the game in the opponent's half. And when you can't effectively pin the opponent in their half within the playstyle in question, then one must look a little closer to the players who are occupying positions in the defensive third.

Of course we also need a striker, but for me the issues in the build up phase should be staring ten Hag in the face. And if he wants to play the game in the opponent's half by circumnavigating the opponent's off the ball pressing game, then having players who will help in the build up phase at a high level will help us play higher up the pitch in a compact high block which will open up on the ball sequences and help in applying high pressure effectively off the ball due to the collective being in a compact high block. Being compact high up the pitch is the key.

 

[BluesJr]

This place is allergic to possession football. Very weird. Stems from all the Guardiola domination of us I’d imagine.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Obviously being able to have spells of possession and build up moves and being patient are all critical and none of them are the hallmarks of “possession football” on the way OP is talking about.

I’m talking about about the Ajax/Barcelona school of total football style possession football that Pep champions, that people may have expected ETH to also ideologically adhere to because he came as a former Ajax manager. It’s that bit I’m not sure ETH was ever that tied too. He’s much more flexible, and I like him much more for it.

They absolutely are. They’re just not solely hallmarks of the tiki taka stay ke which many confuse with being the only way to play possession football and control games. I don’t think that many expected him to be Pep / Spain type manager and those who did have the same misplaced understanding and hence have branded him ‘not a possession oriented manager’.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

This place is allergic to possession football. Very weird. Stems from all the Guardiola domination of us I’d imagine.

Yup. Him and LvG have caused these warped feelings among many who consider it to be a dirty word.

 

[Adnan]

Yup. Him and LvG have caused these warped feelings among many who consider it to be a dirty word.

Van Gaal also implemented positional play but it was horizontal positional play which is very different to the vertical positional play of Guardiola and ten Hag. Van Gaal's approach was basic and frought with being risk averse hence we played boring football by going side to side.

 

[Grande]

A play style is only as effective as the players one has at his disposal. And you have to ask yourself, if ten Hag is making compromises to his preferred method of play. Then where is he making those compromises and how do those compromises effect the collective as whole.

And if the aim is to build play from the back via building play through the thirds, then the goalkeeper absolutely has to be a net positive at creating the first superiority due to him being the player that has the time to break the opponent's press. And if a keeper isn't of the requisite standard on the ball, then compromises will have to be made until a more suitable keeper is brought in for the playstyle in question. I have no doubt, that a keeper with ability on the ball will make a difference to our build up play, which is currently not of the requisite standard. He's obviously not the only problem and upgrades are required in CM and RB aswell if the aim is to challenge the best teams domestically and in Europe for the highest honours.

When the first phase is compromised within the playstyle in question, then that will also blunt the players in most advanced areas of the pitch when it comes to creating attacking sequences higher up the pitch and also applying off the ball pressure higher up the pitch. Because if the players in the first phase are unable to effectively build play through the thirds, then that will result in the collective not being able to play the game in the opponent's half. And when you can't effectively pin the opponent in their half within the playstyle in question, then one must look a little closer to the players who are occupying positions in the defensive third.

Of course we also need a striker, but for me the issues in the build up phase should be staring ten Hag in the face. And if he wants to play the game in the opponent's half by circumnavigating the opponent's off the ball pressing game, then having players who will help in the build up phase at a high level will help us play higher up the pitch in a compact high block which will open up on the ball sequences and help in applying high pressure effectively off the ball due to the collective being in a compact high block. Being compact high up the pitch is the key.

Fair enough, but do you reckon there are any other compromises in the defensive third than De Gea and Dalot/Wan Bissaka? If so, who can we get and how much better will they make us?

 

[astracrazy]

I don't think he is a possession manager, I just think his style of play generally leads to having more possession. There is a big difference.

 

[Adnan]

Fair enough, but do you reckon there are any other compromises in the defensive third than De Gea and Dalot/Wan Bissaka? If so, who can we get and how much better will they make us?

I think a new keeper, CM and RB who suit ten Hag's style of play will improve us considerably. That should in theory help us when it comes to building play from the back, which in-turn will correlate to playing higher up the pitch, pressing aggressively in a compact high block with the keeper being primed to sweep up anything that's between himself and the last line. If the house's foundation is strong, then that will create the conditions for the rest of the development to follow.

That would also then expose any weaknesses higher up the pitch as far the players occupying the forward roles.

I think the following four players have the potential to change the whole dynamic of the current team towards what I feel ten Hag is working towards.

GK: Diogo Costa

RB: Frimpong (would allow Shaw to make it a 3 man defence out of possession)

CM: Frenkie de Jong ( not going to happen)

Striker: one of Ramos, Osimhen, Kane

I also haven't seen the above players nearly as much as say the scouting department will have. So please take my suggestions with a pinch if salt.

 

[TMDaines]

This is pretty bizarre as in my eyes ETH is very obviously a possession-orientated manager, just one that has been forced to compromise a lot of principles this season due to limitations in the squad.

The problem is that going forward many of our key players, our best players, this season are not going to be ideal for a possession-orientated approach. I'd argue our best three outfielders this season have been Rashford, Bruno and Casemiro. None of them support playing possession-orientated football. You can carry a couple of players like this, but it's very difficult to see how ETH takes this team and gets it to perform like a City, Arsenal or even a Brighton. It's going to require incredible coaching and massive changes in personnel.

 

[Theonas]

Tags as usual only tell half the story. Not even Pep would call himself a possession based manager. In way, all managers would rather have the ball than not have it. Even Mourinho when he managed the likes of Chelsea and Real, they had more possession than their opponents when they played mid table sides. I mean it's just common sense, if you know you can afford to have it, it's the most bullet proof way to not concede. The difference only comes in how far a manager is willing to go to ensure that and what expense. Pep would go far as he puts in a lot of work on the training ground to optimize that skill to the fullest. Defensively, that means maintaining control of the ball and offensively, it means moving the ball with speed that it destabilizes opponents and opens up space. Whereas someone like Mourinho wouldn't and couldn't that meaning when his teams come up against decent sides, the smart, the only way for him to go is to do without as his teams are just not prepared for it.

Ten Hag, Pep, Arteta and Klopp all share a desire to control the game and have it on their terms, the difference between them is just at which point do they feel their teams have enough control. Pep needs a lot of security which necessitates much more of the ball whereas Klopp is probably at the end of that spectrum but his teams still do dominate possession in most games, his best teams at least. Ten Hag looks to me a bit like Arteta or Nagelsmann in his approach, it's a bit of an evolutions from Pep with their satisfaction with a bit less control at least in the short terms. They could do without it. I distinctly remember Arteta's Arsenal looking Mourinho'esque a couple of years ago in an FA Cup tie against City which is a far cry from his team today. Ten Hag is the same, he can mix it up and will find ways to control and be on the ascendency without perfect mastery of the ball but make no mistake that this is what he is working towards.

 

[Adnan]

Tags as usual only tell half the story. Not even Pep would call himself a possession based manager. In way, all managers would rather have the ball than not have it. Even Mourinho when he managed the likes of Chelsea and Real, they had more possession than their opponents when they played mid table sides. I mean it's just common sense, if you know you can afford to have it, it's the most bullet proof way to not concede. The difference only comes in how far a manager is willing to go to ensure that and what expense. Pep would go far as he puts in a lot of work on the training ground to optimize that skill to the fullest. Defensively, that means maintaining control of the ball and offensively, it means moving the ball with speed that it destabilizes opponents and opens up space. Whereas someone like Mourinho wouldn't and couldn't that meaning when his teams come up against decent sides, the smart, the only way for him to go is to do without as his teams are just not prepared for it.

Ten Hag, Pep, Arteta and Klopp all share a desire to control the game and have it on their terms, the difference between them is just at which point do they feel their teams have enough control. Pep needs a lot of security which necessitates much more of the ball whereas Klopp is probably at the end of that spectrum but his teams still do dominate possession in most games, his best teams at least. Ten Hag looks to me a bit like Arteta or Nagelsmann in his approach, it's a bit of an evolutions from Pep with their satisfaction with a bit less control at least in the short terms. They could do without it. I distinctly remember Arteta's Arsenal looking Mourinho'esque a couple of years ago in an FA Cup tie against City which is a far cry from his team today. Ten Hag is the same, he can mix it up and will find ways to control and be on the ascendency without perfect mastery of the ball but make no mistake that this is what he is working towards.

You're correct, the likes of Guardiola, Klopp, Arteta and ten Hag want to control the game. But to control the game in this day and age requires one to control the first phase. And hence why the likes of Guardiola, Arteta and Klopp have made it priority to sign a keeper who helps in that regard.

Any team that bypasses the first phase against the press due to weaknesses at GK, CB, fullback or CM isn't going to control possession due to lack of effective progression through the thirds.

Someone is saying above about Casemiro being a hindrance when it comes to playing possession football. But I don't believe he's the problem but rather he's having to take on extra responsibility when it comes to progressing the play due to the supporting cast not being of the requisite ability with the exeption of a few. I think pairing Casemiro with a midfielder who has the ability to progress play and resist the press at a high level has big potential.

 

[always_hoping]

2019 Champions league with Ajax is where many neutrals stood up and noticed Ten Hag.

Beat Juventus away 2-1 with 49% possession.

Drew with Juventus 1-1 at home with 61% possession

Beat Real Madrid 4-1 away with 39% possession

Lost at home to Real Madrid at home 2-1 with 51% possession

Drew with Bayern Munich twice in the group stages had 55 and 40% possession.

So as the past has proved his sides can have more of the possession but not produce the desired result. Even with Man United that's been seen this season.

For example at home to Newcastle drew 0-0 with 63% possession

League Cup final recently won 2-0 with 38% possession.

 

[NLunited]

Van Gaal also implemented positional play but it was horizontal positional play which is very different to the vertical positional play of Guardiola and ten Hag. Van Gaal's approach was basic and frought with being risk averse hence we played boring football by going side to side.

This is bs: Van Gaal‘s system divides the pitch in vertical and horizontal lines and is what Guardiola‘s system is based on. There is no horizontal positional play because the goal is to progress the ball forwards.

The reason we were risk adverse under Van Gaal is because he did not trust his players.

 

[PepG]

This is bs: Van Gaal‘s system divides the pitch in vertical and horizontal lines and is what Guardiola‘s system is based on. There is no horizontal positional play because the goal is to progress the ball forwards.

The reason we were risk adverse under Van Gaal is because he did not trust his players.

Yes, its true that Van Gaal didnt trust his players but it is also true that he played a horizontal positional play at United. Because he is the only one crazy enough to do it haha look it is important to remember when we speak about LVG that he was always an anti-Cruyffian by heart. What this means is that his idea of football is the opposite one. Now you may think that the italian cattenacio is the natural enemy of the Dutch free flowing total football but the real enemy is the rigid warlike approach to it. The father of this is of course Van Gaal who has always styled himself as an attacking coach but the truth is he never was one. His style, his philosophy is a DEFENSIVE one by nature. LVG used this horizontal nonsense as a defensive mechanism in his second season at United because he thought his team is not good enough to play more attacking football. That was his downfall at Old Traford.

 

[Adnan]

This is bs: Van Gaal‘s system divides the pitch in vertical and horizontal lines and is what Guardiola‘s system is based on. There is no horizontal positional play because the goal is to progress the ball forwards.

The reason we were risk adverse under Van Gaal is because he did not trust his players.

The system does divide the pitch in zones/spaces but how that is applied between ten Hag/Guardiola and Van Gaal is very different in the present day where circumventing the opponent's press is important. Hence Guardiola and ten Hag look to play vertically through the lines and Van Gaal went backwards and sideways to provoke the opponent to step out in a reactive manner. Van Gaal's idea of playing through the press was to either go over the top in a deeper defensive line or play deeper and go side to side with a underload/overload method hoping the oppo would open up space by engaging with the ball.

And it was Van Gaal who fecked up recruitment himself. And he admitted (on MUTV) signing players like Marcos Rojo after Rojo impressed him in the world cup semifinal in 2014. This is the same Van Gaal who wrote in his book about having the itch of being the all powerful manager in English football, a privilege he never enjoyed before. And he made a pigs ear of recruitment.

 

[Adnan]

Yes, its true that Van Gaal didnt trust his players but it is also true that he played a horizontal positional play at United. Because he is the only one crazy enough to do it haha look it is important to remember when we speak about LVG that he was always an anti-Cruyffian by heart. What this means is that his idea of football is the opposite one. Now you may think that the italian cattenacio is the natural enemy of the Dutch free flowing total football but the real enemy is the rigid warlike approach to it. The father of this is of course Van Gaal who has always styled himself as an attacking coach but the truth is he never was one. His style, his philosophy is a DEFENSIVE one by nature. LVG used this horizontal nonsense as a defensive mechanism in his second season at United because he thought his team is not good enough to play more attacking football. That was his downfall at Old Traford.

Spot on.

 

[NLunited]

The system does divide the pitch in zones/spaces but how that is applied between ten Hag/Guardiola and Van Gaal is very different in the present day where circumventing the opponent's press is important. Hence Guardiola and ten Hag look to play vertically through the lines and Van Gaal went backwards and sideways to provoke the opponent to step out in a reactive manner. Van Gaal's idea of playing through the press was to either go over the top in a deeper defensive line or play deeper and go side to side with a underload/overload method hoping the oppo would open up space by engaging with the ball.

And it was Van Gaal who fecked up recruitment himself. And he admitted (on MUTV) signing players like Marcos Rojo after Rojo impressed him in the world cup semifinal in 2014. This is the same Van Gaal who wrote in his book about having the itch of being the all powerful manager in English football, a privilege he never enjoyed before. And he made a pigs ear of recruitment.

Not correct, Guardiola also tries to move the opponent to one side and attack over the other, it is one of his tenets. The term horizontal positional play does not exist.

Van Gaal did not have the players to play successfully through the lines except for Blind and Carrick. However the biggest issues were in the final third.

I agree he fecked up recruitment mostly, but that is a shared failure with the club.

 

[Adnan]

Not correct, Guardiola also tries to move the opponent to one side and attack over the other, it is one of his tenets. The term horizontal positional play does not exist.

Van Gaal did not have the players to play successfully through the lines except for Blind and Carrick. However the biggest issues were in the final third.

I agree he fecked up recruitment mostly, but that is a shared failure with the club.

All positional play coaches utilise the overload/underload method but the likes of ten Hag and Guardiola utilise it higher up the pitch against teams who are defending deep in numbers. Van Gaal's overload/underload method in our own defensive third points to how reactive he was whilst the likes of ten Hag and Guardiola utilise the method to play proactive football with the aim of playing the game in the opponent's half with pressing and counter pressing as the insurance policy in the event of turning over possession.

Van Gaal didn't develop a off the ball pressing game and hence he adapted to the new breed of coaches who made him obsolete at the top level in club football.

 

[pocco]

@sullydnl I didn't get chance to respond in the other thread when asked who had told me that, but I can't remember exactly who. I asked it a while ago in one of the numerous threads on our new manager search and there were Dutch/Ajax posters that said he's nothing like Pep and he prefers quick transitions rather than dominating possession. That was the point I was trying to make.

 

[pocco]

We don’t have to be City and Pep. We don't have to go that far.

But we do need to out pass mid table teams.

This is my thinking. And, in my opinion, you can never be a good team that at least controls periods of the game against the best teams, unless you are doing it every week even against the small teams. When the going gets tough, players fall into habits. It needs to be drilled into us to dominate possession assist the smaller teams, so that we are competitive in the bigger games.

I 100% agree with this and the OP’s point.

The biggest difference between Pep and ETHs styles is that ETH wants players switching positions while Pep is very strict in that regard.

I'm sorry but I don't agree with that at all. I don't confess to watching City every week, but the times I did, and in particular right in front of me at OT, I remember thinking about how damn fluid they were. It was confusing the shit out of us. De Bruyne was popping up on the RW, Bernardo Silva was moving all over the pitch and had Casemiro doing some serious mileage in chasing him around. Second half their full backs practically played as wingers. That's just what I recall of the top of my head in one game.

 

[MikeKing]

Why are we so desperately trying to play out from the back if we're not trying to be a possession based team. We clearly try to dominate play, and we're at our best when we manage to do so. However, not by hogging the ball in defensive positions but mounting pressure and recycling the ball in attack. We've become a lot better at it.

 

[Grande]

I think a new keeper, CM and RB who suit ten Hag's style of play will improve us considerably. That should in theory help us when it comes to building play from the back, which in-turn will correlate to playing higher up the pitch, pressing aggressively in a compact high block with the keeper being primed to sweep up anything that's between himself and the last line. If the house's foundation is strong, then that will create the conditions for the rest of the development to follow.

That would also then expose any weaknesses higher up the pitch as far the players occupying the forward roles.

I think the following four players have the potential to change the whole dynamic of the current team towards what I feel ten Hag is working towards.

GK: Diogo Costa

RB: Frimpong (would allow Shaw to make it a 3 man defence out of possession)

CM: Frenkie de Jong ( not going to happen)

Striker: one of Ramos, Osimhen, Kane

I also haven't seen the above players nearly as much as say the scouting department will have. So please take my suggestions with a pinch if salt.

I will, though they are as good as anything I could come up with. Frimpong I haven’t really seen much, so I don’t have a clear idea of how much better on the ball he is than Bissaka or Dalot.

De Jong I think you’re right, not leaving Barca, so not sure who will be a clear upgrade on Christian Eriksen there. We need fresh blood, but as a first choice I’m not sure we can do much better than Casemiro-Eriksen-Bruno as CM/AMs right now.

It will be interesting to see, with at least 120m going to strikers, if Ten Hag will ptioritize a new top keeper and a RB better than Dalot, in addition to say, a Sabitzer. It will all cost a150m extra I imagine.

 

[georgipep]

I will, though they are as good as anything I could come up with. Frimpong I haven’t really seen much, so I don’t have a clear idea of how much better on the ball he is than Bissaka or Dalot.

De Jong I think you’re right, not leaving Barca, so not sure who will be a clear upgrade on Christian Eriksen there. We need fresh blood, but as a first choice I’m not sure we can do much better than Casemiro-Eriksen-Bruno as CM/AMs right now.

It will be interesting to see, with at least 120m going to strikers, if Ten Hag will ptioritize a new top keeper and a RB better than Dalot, in addition to say, a Sabitzer. It will all cost a150m extra I imagine.

Barca may end up being relegated and bankrupt, so there is a path to Frenkie

 

[Messier1994]

I'm sorry but I don't agree with that at all. I don't confess to watching City every week, but the times I did, and in particular right in front of me at OT, I remember thinking about how damn fluid they were. It was confusing the shit out of us. De Bruyne was popping up on the RW, Bernardo Silva was moving all over the pitch and had Casemiro doing some serious mileage in chasing him around. Second half their full backs practically played as wingers. That's just what I recall of the top of my head in one game.

Yeah, sorry, I was a bit unclear.

The players are definitely allowed to be mobile, their entire game is based on creating triangles and rotate those triangles.

But a player got a role — that itself isn’t stationary — but in classic Dutch total football style, they do not literary change positions. If you are the striker, you don’t change spot with KDB and play as a AMC for two minutes. KDB has a free role, but like Gundogan don’t. The CBs dont and the full backs dont.

 

[Messier1994]

The big difference between Guardiola and ten Hag when it comes to positional play is that Guardiola will look to build play in a measured way upon winning the ball back via the press/counter press and ten Hag will look to go for the jugular by going for the kill and not giving the opponent time to reset their defensive structure. That will result in a Guardiola team having more possession but i'm not sure if that's more effective than attempting to go direct for goal due to the opposition being in a vulnerable state defensively upon losing the ball, which opens up space for the counter.

The thing is — ETH is VERY critical of this in his interviews, and especially before Christmas called this out on a regular basis.

He will call out how we get away from our rules when we play this way. I remember an interview in October/November when he called our attempts to go for the killer ball “Childish”, said something like ‘as soon as we win the ball, we go for early crosses, that is not our rules, it is childish, we need to build up the play’ (could have been Everton away).

And there have 110% been friction between ETH and Bruno regarding this.

I definitely think you describe how we play really well, but in interviews ETH have been very pleased when we played like we did against Tottenham and the first half against CFC, and very critical in games we haven’t built up possession and played long a lot.

BTW I 100% agree with you and the conclusions you draw. It is definitely a balance act between possession and the effectiveness of your attack.

 

[Greck]

Yeah, on the Caf I often encounter this 'Guardiola teams are dull to watch' thing and it's bizarre. We're talking about a team that scored over 100 league goals twice, and yet to finish a Premier League season without scoring at least 80. If we played that kind of football with the same results, people, myself included, would be creaming themselves non-stop.

The stigma around the term possession can be overboard. Like persons just haven't figured out possession football can have many variants ranging from an ETH to an LVG. Borrowing elements from other styles also doesn't instantly mean it is or isn't possession oriented. Pep's first city teams were also good at counters. Back in their second season when more teams still played open against and went after them they dished out a lot of videogame scorelines, many many goals on the counter.

 

[Adnan]

The thing is — ETH is VERY critical of this in his interviews, and especially before Christmas called this out on a regular basis.

He will call out how we get away from our rules when we play this way. I remember an interview in October/November when he called our attempts to go for the killer ball “Childish”, said something like ‘as soon as we win the ball, we go for early crosses, that is not our rules, it is childish, we need to build up the play’ (could have been Everton away).

And there have 110% been friction between ETH and Bruno regarding this.

I definitely think you describe how we play really well, but in interviews ETH have been very pleased when we played like we did against Tottenham and the first half against CFC, and very critical in games we haven’t built up possession and played long a lot.

BTW I 100% agree with you and the conclusions you draw. It is definitely a balance act between possession and the effectiveness of your attack.

What i'm referring to is winning the ball high up the pitch, which creates a shooting opportunity due to the opponent being out of position.

What ten Hag was referring to when he said he didn't want us to go for the killer ball, was that he wanted us to attempt to build play due to how far away we were from the opponent's goal. And killer balls with a low probability weren't of great benefit.

 

[city-puma]

All positional play coaches utilise the overload/underload method but the likes of ten Hag and Guardiola utilise it higher up the pitch against teams who are defending deep in numbers. Van Gaal's overload/underload method in our own defensive third points to how reactive he was whilst the likes of ten Hag and Guardiola utilise the method to play proactive football with the aim of playing the game in the opponent's half with pressing and counter pressing as the insurance policy in the event of turning over possession.

Van Gaal didn't develop a off the ball pressing game and hence he adapted to the new breed of coaches who made him obsolete at the top level in club football.

In fact, Van Gaal himself recognized the unstoppable trend of the vertical positional play after he was sacked by us. He once claimed that he can implement it if he was not sacked.
I think many still don’t realize that the possession is just side-effect or by-product for ETH’s approach when the team is able to dominate the opponents, and therefore, wrongly think the possession is his sole principles.

 

[NLunited]

All positional play coaches utilise the overload/underload method but the likes of ten Hag and Guardiola utilise it higher up the pitch against teams who are defending deep in numbers. Van Gaal's overload/underload method in our own defensive third points to how reactive he was whilst the likes of ten Hag and Guardiola utilise the method to play proactive football with the aim of playing the game in the opponent's half with pressing and counter pressing as the insurance policy in the event of turning over possession.

Van Gaal didn't develop a off the ball pressing game and hence he adapted to the new breed of coaches who made him obsolete at the top level in club football.

I‘m sorry but you are not rational in your opinion of Van Gaal. I‘d argue he moved with the times, as we have seen in the world cup where Holland was unbeaten.

There he applied provocative pressing. He did not think we would get very far playing attacking football with a 433 formation.

 

[Adnan]

I will, though they are as good as anything I could come up with. Frimpong I haven’t really seen much, so I don’t have a clear idea of how much better on the ball he is than Bissaka or Dalot.

De Jong I think you’re right, not leaving Barca, so not sure who will be a clear upgrade on Christian Eriksen there. We need fresh blood, but as a first choice I’m not sure we can do much better than Casemiro-Eriksen-Bruno as CM/AMs right now.

It will be interesting to see, with at least 120m going to strikers, if Ten Hag will ptioritize a new top keeper and a RB better than Dalot, in addition to say, a Sabitzer. It will all cost a150m extra I imagine.

I think new owners will likely have to be in place if we're to sign more than 3 players.

I also feel a deep roaming midfielder with the ability to dribble/carry the ball can make a difference from deeper areas of the pitch, which can really help us evade pressure and progress play effectively. And that would add to the current options who don't possess ball carrying traits.

I think the striker signing is going to be either Osimhen or Goncalo Ramos. And the rest will depend on if we have new owners in place.

 

[wolvored]

Yeah, that’s what I meant to say. He’s isn’t like Pep or Arteta where their team dominates the ball and control the games. Of course he prefers possession but I don’t see us controlling the games under Ten Hag like them.

I think thats what he wants to eventually achieve though, hes mentioned it enough times, about how he wants to dominate through posession. This might take he season after next to fully achieve, as we have loads of players unsuitable for this. Moving some of these players on with their wages, will be an hard thing to do.

 

[city-puma]

I think new owners will likely have to be in place if we're to sign more than 3 players.

I also feel a deep roaming midfielder with the ability to dribble/carry the ball can make a difference from deeper areas of the pitch, which can really help us evade pressure and progress play effectively. And that would add to the current options who don't possess ball carrying traits.

I think the striker signing is going to be either Osimhen or Goncalo Ramos. And the rest will depend on if we have new owners in place.

I think the highest priority is goalkeeper if we can’t sign three. Goalkeeper is the main reason we can’t dominate any opponent substantially long enough. Instead, always find ourselves battling the first ball in mid-third and lost to their step up CB.

 

[Adnan]

I‘m sorry but you are not rational in your opinion of Van Gaal. I‘d argue he moved with the times, as we have seen in the world cup where Holland was unbeaten.

There he applied provocative pressing. He did not think we would get very far playing attacking football with a 433 formation.

International football and club football are very different.

You're saying that he never had the players, hence had to adapt. But the new breed of manager like Klopp and Pochettino managed to play proactive attacking football at clubs like Mainz and Espanyol with not the best players. And both Klopp and Pochettino applied a vertical approach in possession which allowed them to flood the opponent's defensive third via committing players in attack, with the counter press as the defense mechanism in the event the ball is turned over to the opposition.

 

[Adnan]

I think the highest priority is goalkeeper if we can’t sign three. Goalkeeper is the main reason we can’t dominate any opponent substantially long enough. Instead, always find ourselves battling the first ball in mid-third and lost to their step up CB.

With the keeper there should be two advantages if we're to focus on ball playing ability. And the two advantages the keeper should provide is to have the ability to play short to mid range passes consistently and also have the ability to launch long passes with a degree of accuracy. And then if we also add the potential benefit of cross claiming and sweeping. Then the improvement should be noticeable.

Video below comparing DdG, Costa and Raya.