Where do we go from here?

Personally I would say we need a 5YR plan and another cultural reset - but this time no more half-measures!

If I was appointed United manager tomorrow, my first action would be to get rid of Ronaldo, Cavani, Martial, Pogba, Matic, Mata and De Gea. Not because I think they are all bad players. Not because I don't think we're not better with some of them. Solely because, in my opinion, they earn too much money for their relative contribution.

By my calculation, that is about £2,000,000 worth of wages every single week, or £104,000,000 per annum. Do we get £104,000,000 per annum worth of value out of these players? Personally, I would say "no". In my opinion, it's absolutely ludicrous to be paying these wages to players who currently sit 7th in the table.

I would then basically stick with what remains for three years, without spending anything on the squad. I would also sell some of the real fringe players, such as van de Beek, Tuanzebe, Williams and Pereira, who are always unlikely to get minutes.

I imagine it would be pretty tough at times, but would still have the core of a side good enough to challenge for top four/top six, if we played fairly simple counter-attacking football. We arguably had a worse squad for a period of time under Ole and still managed to finish 3rd and 2nd, plus you never know who might step up from the Youth team if we get rid of the big ego's and overpaid senior players.

This would be a great opportunity to bring in some young lads, so I would focus on blooding some of the lads from the Academy, and would bring in the likes of Laird, Menghi, Mejbri, Hugill, Igbal, Elanga, Shoretire, Garner etc...to see what they could bring to the 1st team squad. Plus, there is always likely to be one star each year that comes through that is worth a few games.

When City and Chelsea built their title-winning sides, they did so by throwing huge sums of cash at players over a two/three year period, so that the squad peaked together. Not by buying one or two players every year for ten seasons. We have a thread titled "What do we still need? AKA - The Neverending Story" because we keep trying to build a side one or two pieces at a time. By the time five or six pieces are right, another five or six pieces need replacing with this approach.

With my cultural-reset, money-saving approach, after 3YRs, I would basically have saved £300m in wages and (you would expect) about £200m net in transfer fees, plus whatever I made in sales, giving me £600m or so to go out into the market and address all of the failing areas in the current squad. Personally, I think £600m over two/three windows would be worth far more than £100m over 12 windows, which is the approach we have taken since SAF due to the budgets we have to adhere to. Even in three years, £600m would mean we could make some genuinely world-class signings and fix several positions all at once.

It would be painful, I don't doubt it - but imagine if we had thought like this in 2014....by 2018/2019, we could have been winning titles again. Short term pain for long-term gain is needed at this club right now.
 
We already know where we're going. We knew this after sacking Ole and then hiring Ralf for 6 months. I see so many of these posts and don't understand them?!

If people still don't get it, I can explain it to them.
 
I'm not making peace with being crap. No way.
We have some of the best players in the league with the biggest wage bill. We can and should be beating most of the teams we play.
You might have no choice as there is no glimmer of hope in the way we play. It's been months since we played well for 90 minutes and dominated a game. These some of the best players in the league you speak of can't even pass the ball a few yards and are playing like hungover Sunday league shite.
 
Rangnick in his interview said players didn't follow instructions. Like the fourth time he's said it. I think the club need to give him the reigns to drop as many players as he wishes. This season is no longer about results. The culture within the team is rotten.
Bringing in Ten Hag with the current roaster is a waste of time.
 
Personally I would say we need a 5YR plan and another cultural reset - but this time no more half-measures!

If I was appointed United manager tomorrow, my first action would be to get rid of Ronaldo, Cavani, Martial, Pogba, Matic, Mata and De Gea. Not because I think they are all bad players. Not because I don't think we're not better with some of them. Solely because, in my opinion, they earn too much money for their relative contribution.

By my calculation, that is about £2,000,000 worth of wages every single week, or £104,000,000 per annum. Do we get £104,000,000 per annum worth of value out of these players? Personally, I would say "no". In my opinion, it's absolutely ludicrous to be paying these wages to players who currently sit 7th in the table.

I would then basically stick with what remains for three years, without spending anything on the squad. I would also sell some of the real fringe players, such as van de Beek, Tuanzebe, Williams and Pereira, who are always unlikely to get minutes.

I imagine it would be pretty tough at times, but would still have the core of a side good enough to challenge for top four/top six, if we played fairly simple counter-attacking football. We arguably had a worse squad for a period of time under Ole and still managed to finish 3rd and 2nd, plus you never know who might step up from the Youth team if we get rid of the big ego's and overpaid senior players.

This would be a great opportunity to bring in some young lads, so I would focus on blooding some of the lads from the Academy, and would bring in the likes of Laird, Menghi, Mejbri, Hugill, Igbal, Elanga, Shoretire, Garner etc...to see what they could bring to the 1st team squad. Plus, there is always likely to be one star each year that comes through that is worth a few games.

When City and Chelsea built their title-winning sides, they did so by throwing huge sums of cash at players over a two/three year period, so that the squad peaked together. Not by buying one or two players every year for ten seasons. We have a thread titled "What do we still need? AKA - The Neverending Story" because we keep trying to build a side one or two pieces at a time. By the time five or six pieces are right, another five or six pieces need replacing with this approach.

With my cultural-reset, money-saving approach, after 3YRs, I would basically have saved £300m in wages and (you would expect) about £200m net in transfer fees, plus whatever I made in sales, giving me £600m or so to go out into the market and address all of the failing areas in the current squad. Personally, I think £600m over two/three windows would be worth far more than £100m over 12 windows, which is the approach we have taken since SAF due to the budgets we have to adhere to. Even in three years, £600m would mean we could make some genuinely world-class signings and fix several positions all at once.

It would be painful, I don't doubt it - but imagine if we had thought like this in 2014....by 2018/2019, we could have been winning titles again. Short term pain for long-term gain is needed at this club right now.
You do that and you would be relegated in 2 years never mind finishing top 4. None of the youth have shown they are ready for the step up, so to have a team and subs with half a dozen or more youth and the likes of McFred Maguire WB Rashford etc, who aint good enough with the 'big name' players, would only make them even worse.
 
Where do we go from here? Hope the next 5 months go quickly so we can look forward to next season with hopefully a competent manager

People are delusional if they think any Manager can get something out of this lot , Pep or Klopp would struggle to deliver anything with these players , we are paying for years of poor player recruitment which has delivered too many mediocre players with poor character and mentality.

The new manger starting next season has a mammoth task ahead of him to basically start building a squad that reflects the status of the club , it is going to be a long and arduous task that will years at least.
 
Did some of you expect an interim manager would just come in flip a switch and we'd be perfect?

It's not that easy I'm afraid. We were in a right state and it'll take some time.
 
Rangnick in his interview said players didn't follow instructions. Like the fourth time he's said it. I think the club need to give him the reigns to drop as many players as he wishes. This season is no longer about results. The culture within the team is rotten.
Bringing in Ten Hag with the current roaster is a waste of time.

Ten Hag won't come anywhere near this rabble. He will wait for the City or Liverpool jobs if he had any sense.
 
At this point I would like us to do an arsenal and put the faith in the youth as there seem to be too many senior players playing for themselves and not for the team or manager. This is why I don't feel sorry for the likes of ole and ragnick because both continually played it safe with the same old players even if it means shoe horning them into a first 11 that created an imbalance despite one bad result and performance after another
 
Did some of you expect an interim manager would just come in flip a switch and we'd be perfect?

It's not that easy I'm afraid. We were in a right state and it'll take some time.
Trouble is he has six months to leave some kind of blueprint for the new guy. More and more it looks like success for him would be facilitating a clearout.
 
People are delusional if they think any Manager can get something out of this lot , Pep or Klopp would struggle to deliver anything with these players , we are paying for years of poor player recruitment which has delivered too many mediocre players with poor character and mentality.

The new manger starting next season has a mammoth task ahead of him to basically start building a squad that reflects the status of the club , it is going to be a long and arduous task that will years at least.
Exactly this. AWB, Dalot, Donny, Pogba, Fred, Sancho, Maguire cost a lot of money and they have all offered limited return.

Ole would win the league with City, Pep would not make much of a difference at United.

On present form we will finish 7-10th in the league.
 
When City and Chelsea built their title-winning sides, they did so by throwing huge sums of cash at players over a two/three year period, so that the squad peaked together. Not by buying one or two players every year for ten seasons. We have a thread titled "What do we still need? AKA - The Neverending Story" because we keep trying to build a side one or two pieces at a time. By the time five or six pieces are right, another five or six pieces need replacing with this approach.

I'm hoping this is where Rangnick will earn his money when he goes upstairs. He only buys young players with potential who don't cost the earth. I think this is the main reason the Glazers have brought him in.

Our policy of bying 2 players every window clearly doesn't work. We bought AWB & Mcguire for £135 Mill. We could have bought better players than them for a fraction of the cost & had money left over to strengthen other areas.

Not all the players we buy using this approach are going to hit the mark but at least we aren't blowing our entire budget on flops who we then can't shift as their wages are too high & their resale value has plummeted.
 
The new manager won't be playing 4222 and you don't need to play 4222 to press. You can instill the ideas of pressing, fast build-up and hard work with formations which suit our current squad better. We've been (trying) to build a squad with fast and fluid wing play in mind, so perhaps shifting from that to putting too much hope onto our full backs is something that should be dropped. AWB, Shaw, Telles and Dalot are not going to be the new Trent or James that we'd need with this formation. Ole was thought to throw a 433 or a 4231 onto the field to let the lads enjoy themselves. Let's try these formations with the tactical knowledge and discipline of Ralf? With that said, we still need to get players. We can't rely on Matic and McFred for the rest of the season.

Also not sure about having Ronaldo and Cavani up front. Ronaldo has played 90 minutes every match since Ralf arrived. Cavani has played full 90 twice with another 45 minutes before that. I believe we could make these two run their asses off and press the oppo but not while playing them every match. Let's play around with the front four a bit more if it's 4222 we must go with. I'd love to see Pogba play left in 4222 or try Bruno up front with Ronaldo. Cavani and Ronaldo seem to be too similar to up front.

I think the second most important thing, behind somehow getting CL football next season, is to clear the air for the next manager. It doesn't matter if we get Ten Hag, Poch, Klopp or Pep in, if the current lot of players keep stinking up the place. We hired a psychologist of a sort, hire a whole fecking team and get players' heads sorted. Weed out those who sway the entire group to lose sight. It just can't continue like this and a complete overhaul would take another 10 years.

Won't even start with what's going on above the manager here...
 
What can Ralf do next…

I don’t think any of the players are too bothered if they play or not tbh.

Pogba is paid millions to holiday in Dubai.
Donny is paid to put the cones out.
Lingard is paid to post West Ham pics on Instagram.

The whole squad knows they are not going to win anything, the Liverpool and City beatings were the KO blows.

They can’t fool themselves into thinking they can win a trophy.

So Ralf can ask them to press, he can show them some YouTube clips on how to press, but why would they listen? the next manager will be along in the summer.
 
United are as far away from a title challenge now as they have been at any point since SAF retired.

It's a rebuild.

Ronaldo, Pogba and Cavani will be off in the summer - the new manager will need to spend the saved wages wisely. Unfortunately for him, he'll probably inherit a team in the Europa Conference and will have to contend with a World Cup in the middle of his first season in charge.
 
United are as far away from a title challenge now as they have been at any point since SAF retired.

It's a rebuild.

Ronaldo, Pogba and Cavani will be off in the summer - the new manager will need to spend the saved wages wisely. Unfortunately for him, he'll probably inherit a team in the Europa Conference and will have to contend with a World Cup in the middle of his first season in charge.

Yeah hard to have any optimism of top 4 with these players seemingly not willing to buy into Rangnick for 5 months. We desperately need to sign a cheap CDM in this window but there are no strong links at all so god knows where we go
 
Considering another thread for this but has anyone else noticed how we are deploying effectively three number 9’s: Ronaldo, Cavani and Greenwood whilst Liverpool, City and Chelsea are playing great football with no obvious number 9?

really think we could benefit from a possession based pressing style where we look after the ball, earn the right to play and work the ball into good opportunities.
 
Publicly, club officials have to keep a stiff upper lip, but in private whoever it is that makes an important decisions for the club have to be thinking about how to rebuild the management team and the playing staff from top to bottom. It won't and can't happen overnight but it seems to me the following are obvious:
  • Understand that we're 2-3 seasons away, not 1 season away, from lifting a major trophy. 2-3 seasons is optimistic, but we have to be optimistic.
  • Do not extend Ralf's contract as manager. Bring in ten Hag, if that's humanly possible.
  • See off players who would rather not be here anyway. This includes Pogba, Lingar and Martial, of course. Bench them through season's end, regardless of how desperate we become.
  • Make peace with letting Ronaldo and Cavani go at season's end. They deserve better than to end their careers with United in this condition.
  • Commit to spending what it takes to bring in promising talent that won't cost us a fortune in fees and wages. There is no quick fix player, mates.
  • Bring up some of our younger players to stand in where our senior players have failed. This speaks for itself.
Defeat v Wolves was catastrophic and can't be explained away with a bad referee decision or bad luck. We don't have the players up front or in midfield to beat a club like Wolves, which beat us convincingly but which struggles against most other clubs. The last several games were supposed to be the easy prey but we were fortunate to gotten the wins that we did, barely managed a draw and deserved defeat to a garbage side like Wolves. Laughingtock United.
 
I was ridiculed for saying we are in a crisis the other day but we totally are. This is a dead team and no one is interested is getting better.

We get outplayed by every team we play and nothing is going to change any time soon. We are no longer one of the big boys and we need to make peace with that.

Yeah, it feels like we need to do a massive clear out in the summer and just let the youth play. Even if it means finishing 8th.
 
Publicly, club officials have to keep a stiff upper lip, but in private whoever it is that makes an important decisions for the club have to be thinking about how to rebuild the management team and the playing staff from top to bottom. It won't and can't happen overnight but it seems to me the following are obvious:
  • Understand that we're 2-3 seasons away, not 1 season away, from lifting a major trophy. 2-3 seasons is optimistic, but we have to be optimistic.
  • Do not extend Ralf's contract as manager. Bring in ten Hag, if that's humanly possible.
  • See off players who would rather not be here anyway. This includes Pogba, Lingar and Martial, of course. Bench them through season's end, regardless of how desperate we become.
  • Make peace with letting Ronaldo and Cavani go at season's end. They deserve better than to end their careers with United in this condition.
  • Commit to spending what it takes to bring in promising talent that won't cost us a fortune in fees and wages. There is no quick fix player, mates.
  • Bring up some of our younger players to stand in where our senior players have failed. This speaks for itself.
Defeat v Wolves was catastrophic and can't be explained away with a bad referee decision or bad luck. We don't have the players up front or in midfield to beat a club like Wolves, which beat us convincingly but which struggles against most other clubs. The last several games were supposed to be the easy prey but we were fortunate to gotten the wins that we did, barely managed a draw and deserved defeat to a garbage side like Wolves. Laughingtock United.

Ten Hag, VDS and Overmars all. Tell them league position next year isn't as important as overhauling things. Play youth and build a proper team that can dominate games against the mid-table and lower level sides at least.
 
Ajax are not going to gut their management team and all come to OT. But the core idea that we need to bring in a top manager and make it clear that we expect results 2-3 seasons from now, not instant gratification, is sound.
 
Where do we go from here? Hope the next 5 months go quickly so we can look forward to next season with hopefully a competent manager
Publicly, club officials have to keep a stiff upper lip, but in private whoever it is that makes an important decisions for the club have to be thinking about how to rebuild the management team and the playing staff from top to bottom. It won't and can't happen overnight but it seems to me the following are obvious:
  • Understand that we're 2-3 seasons away, not 1 season away, from lifting a major trophy. 2-3 seasons is optimistic, but we have to be optimistic.
  • Do not extend Ralf's contract as manager. Bring in ten Hag, if that's humanly possible.
  • See off players who would rather not be here anyway. This includes Pogba, Lingar and Martial, of course. Bench them through season's end, regardless of how desperate we become.
  • Make peace with letting Ronaldo and Cavani go at season's end. They deserve better than to end their careers with United in this condition.
  • Commit to spending what it takes to bring in promising talent that won't cost us a fortune in fees and wages. There is no quick fix player, mates.
  • Bring up some of our younger players to stand in where our senior players have failed. This speaks for itself.
Defeat v Wolves was catastrophic and can't be explained away with a bad referee decision or bad luck. We don't have the players up front or in midfield to beat a club like Wolves, which beat us convincingly but which struggles against most other clubs. The last several games were supposed to be the easy prey but we were fortunate to gotten the wins that we did, barely managed a draw and deserved defeat to a garbage side like Wolves. Laughingtock United.
I'd like to get rid of all the players who like it here -- they're far too comfortable with what's happening here. Keep the ones who want to leave and who are horrified with this way of playing.
Loan the younger players out to get some actual training in how to play the game.
Get rid of the good ole boys in the management.
 
One game at a time, we come back on Monday and try and beat Villa in the cup, then in the league.

We move on the players that don't want to be here this month, get rid of Martial, Lingerd for starters. If we can move on Pogba now for a token fee do it too, he's basically just a drain on the wage bill.

We give a chance to the younger players. Call back Garner and put him and Hannibal into the squad for the rest of the season, if nothing else they'll graft and fight for everything.

We select based on form, not name. People like Maguire and Bruno need to know they are accountable, Ronaldo too.
 
His post match interview stated how the players didn’t press and didn’t do what they were told to do. He needs to drop them and make up a team of players that will. Lingard will press, pretty sure DVB will press. Even Rashford will press better that Ronaldo or Edi did today.
RR can change the formation and many of the starting 11 but he needs to be ruthless.
I refuse to think we can play worse than we did today but that CM needs changing and changing quick.

Exactly.

Rangnick is still finding out what players and combinations can do what he expects.

He said at the beginning that he hoped to understand what changes the squad needed after new year. We are close to that moment. It's clear that several players are sub-standard

But all the self-proclaimed football management geniuses on here are expecting someone to come along with a magic wand and weave a spell in 4 weeks. They might do better to turn off the TV, sit down with a top hat and try to pull some rabbits out of it while the pragmatic among us get on with life.

We've had years of sub-standard football. We have improved in terms of results and goals conceded. We are not the finished article. We are a work in progress.

Neville's comments on "whingebags" could just as appropriately be applied to some in here
 
One game at a time, we come back on Monday and try and beat Villa in the cup, then in the league.

We move on the players that don't want to be here this month, get rid of Martial, Lingerd for starters. If we can move on Pogba now for a token fee do it too, he's basically just a drain on the wage bill.

We give a chance to the younger players. Call back Garner and put him and Hannibal into the squad for the rest of the season, if nothing else they'll graft and fight for everything.

We select based on form, not name. People like Maguire and Bruno need to know they are accountable, Ronaldo too.
Makes a lot of sense, we constantly hear about how our youngsters aren't ready for first team football but let's be honest with ourselves - are Maguire, McTom, AWB and Sancho that far ahead of them on current form? Buy a DM, bring back Garner and play him in the pivot alongside that DM, drop Sancho and play Hannibal as the left sided playmaker and then if Bruno must play it will have to be as part of the front two alongside Ronaldo, Greenwood or Cavani who must rotate.

Rashford, Sancho, McTominay, Fred, Maguire and AWB have to sit out for at least a month no matter what. These players, in addition to Shaw, Ronaldo, Bruno and Fred, sank Ole and RR must know that they will throw him under the bus too. Matic doesn't have to wait for his contract to expire he can move on a free. With Shaw, at least you know he responds when benched so freezing him out won't be best.

It's time for some tough decisions and for the club's bosses to give RR the room to make them. No way he is this badm

Ra
 
Get Tuanzebe Mengi and Laird in. Dalot out, Jones out, Bailiy - forever injured ffs. Trust the kids over mature boys and the kids will want to reward you with good performances for your faith in them. That's how you bleed in kids.
 
Rangnick in his interview said players didn't follow instructions. Like the fourth time he's said it. I think the club need to give him the reigns to drop as many players as he wishes. This season is no longer about results. The culture within the team is rotten.
Bringing in Ten Hag with the current roaster is a waste of time.

You’re right on TH. Coming from the Ajax set up he would get eaten alive the way things are. I don’t think he’d stand a chance with these players and their lack of ability. Also, what if Woodward is still around? I don’t think any coach would succeed while he’s there. He’s an absolute idiot.
 
true but where are the 9 points coming from? on tonights showing we will finish just above the relegation places, total shite!

It’s difficult because, but if you park bus+long balls, there are chances
 
Might not even make it into the Europe league so it's the bloody conference League for us! Might be better to finish 8th and completely restart and prepare for next season.
Next season is gonna be special with the World Cup played in the winter and the Premier League practically continuing right after it. Players who ran deep in the tournament are gonna come back deflated and I suspect a lot of injuries with such a crammed calendar. Given the circumstances it might be possible an outsider wins the prem next year with a low point tally so in that light having no european football will give a massive advantage to all without it. I'd rather we're in all the competitions all the the time but given our predicament I could live with a year without.
 
I just want this season over already. Interim manager, who the next one, who's going who's coming who's not coming who's not going etc etc. King Ralph the great redeemer has been brought in to sort this out. Merrygoround that's Man Utd in the last 9 years.
 
RR needs to fire himself as the interim manager and hire another. I'm pretty convinced he does not know the PL well enough to compete.

1. A 4-2-2-2 will not work in the PL because the players are too good at switching the play to avoid a concerted press. It really is just a 4-4-2 and this could only succeed if the middle two are very good. We have average mids.
2. Play energetic players who can press and challenge for 50/50 balls. This means benching Ronaldo and Rashford.
3. Play a 4-3-3 or 3-5-2 because we need 3 in the middle.
 
I fear Pep and Klopp will stay where they are for the rest of this decade. As long as that's the case, they have one hand on the league and the domestic cups...

We are so far behind them that it could take two or three decades to be competitive again.

But to answer the question: A complete change in our transfer policy is much needed. Stop buying older players and buy the best young players in the world. Players that can develop and have their best years here.

Will we go there ? Obviously not. So, our best hope this season, is to try to win the champions league. Forget about the league and the cups. After the season is done, at least get rid of some of the older guys and promote the kids.
 
You do that and you would be relegated in 2 years never mind finishing top 4. None of the youth have shown they are ready for the step up, so to have a team and subs with half a dozen or more youth and the likes of McFred Maguire WB Rashford etc, who aint good enough with the 'big name' players, would only make them even worse.
This. The young boys match was a wake up call to how bad our second/third string team is. I think people get confused when they see something like an 'Amad' or 'VDB' highlights video on youtube. Most of the time these type of players are second or third string for a reason, they are not good enough (yet?)
 
Where do we go from here? The best answer is up, because we are at quite a low point at present. As a bonafide couch potato manager I still don’t understand how our current and previous managers think that a 424 formation will work in the premier league. All the talk of various formations and pressing, we still had 4 attackers who managed to be both insipid in attack and defending, offering minimal support to the midfield. I long for a game where we are able to keep possession of ball for a sustained period and also be able to work a throwin to our advantage and not just as a process of giving the ball back to the opposition.
 
If I could make some stupid rash decisions right now and didn't have to worry about the consequences I'd probably make DDG or Bruno captain, bin Maguire, Shaw, AWB, McTominay, Ronaldo and Cavani from the starting XI and would use them on a rotation basis/subs till the end of the season. I'd let Lingard, Martial and Mata go now (fill the bench spots with some academy players), try to bring in 2 central midfielders and start playing Greenwood as a striker most games. I think more and more this season is a write-off so I would start putting in place the foundations for what comes next and a spine of DDG-Varane-new DM, Bruno, Greenwood.