"When we can’t find him...we will develop one" -Ten Hag

AFC NimbleThumb said:
If FdJ doesn’t sign it’ll be Fred. I’ve been one of his biggest critics but I think he’d do well in the defined role. He’s far from ideal but I like the fact EtH would rather use what he has at his disposal than buy a player he doesn’t think is suitable.
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Agreed. I think he’d need some coaching to make him more disciplined but he’s got the skills and the right attitude. It’s a shame he isn’t a few years younger.

I don’t think we’ll see much of the youngsters.
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I’m pretty certain we will. If EtH is anything like LvG, which in some way he seems to be, he will be using them as first choice backups rather than having an army of squad players.
 
Rojofiam said:
Other than being Dutch, what similarities are there?
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Both are a a proper coach who has unwavering faith in their style of football which has earned success over the years.

LvG though I think was 1) too much of a disciplinarian and 2) had a style that could not be successful in the modern game at top level. It works internationally though.

Ten Hag on the other hand I think works more stylistically and also in his management of players.
 
AFC NimbleThumb said:
If FdJ doesn’t sign it’ll be Fred. I’ve been one of his biggest critics but I think he’d do well in the defined role. He’s far from ideal but I like the fact EtH would rather use what he has at his disposal than buy a player he doesn’t think is suitable.

I don’t think we’ll see much of the youngsters.
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Raw talent alone will not make it as holding player, you need experience and calmness in that role. Few seasons back, Fred was prefer over Matic on that role, then someone think he was not good enough and want to train McTom instead. Don't know what went wrong but BOTH end up like shitty last season.
 
Vidyoyo said:
I'll take the word of other posters who seem to think he's talking about Fred but it'd be exciting to see Garner moulded to play there. He has all the tools to be a DLP.
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Could be the former just for this season, and then the latter. Either way I think people will be surprised at how good Fred can be in a proper system, especially on the defensive side of things. He was already our best midfielder last year and one of the lone bright spots of that abhorrent season.
 
Bastian said:
I forgot about Donny in the OP when listing the senior midfielders, but I can't imagine anyone of them has both the physical engine and the technical ability to be developed into a role similar to what FDJ excels at. I watched quite a few Forrest matches last season and I like Garner, but I don't think he's that type of dribbler or ball carrier. He has the long range pass, he will keep developing and could make it at United (definitely wouldn't want him sold before we see whether he can make it here) while Zidane Iqbal has already shown that he has the technical ability to resist the press and the range of pass, rough though he still is (of course).

@Ekeke I don't think Hannibal has been done too many favours here in terms of his long-term development, he doesn't really have a set position, has been deployed in various ones while he started out as a deep lying midfielder. He's recently said he'd happily play in whatever position the manager wants and he's confident in his own ability. It can be a problem though, for a player breaking through, if they haven't been given a defined position. Well, I think he lacks the physicality (like Iqbal) but he clearly has the technical ability, the real question with them both is if they have the tactical discipline - and they're well placed training with the senior team under a coach-aholic like ETH.
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I dont disagree that it isnt helping him, but I think its just the truth. And if he really really wanted to play the position I think he would have done so because we obviously think hes a big talent, thats why we signed him. I dont think Pogba would have been played out of position in our reserves when we signed him for example.

So to me I think Hannibal has decided he likes to be more of an attacker than playing deep. A bit like Pogba in that he could do it, but he's a forward moving player rather than one thats going to be depended on for midfield positioning.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
Could be the former just for this season, and then the latter. Either way I think people will be surprised at how good Fred can be in a proper system, especially on the defensive side of things. He was already our best midfielder last year and one of the lone bright spots of that abhorrent season.
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I will be astonished if Fred can be noticeably better than he is. You can’t just tell him to be calm and intelligent and expect him to do it, Fred is a good-ish player at no.8, that’s the whole story.
 
Developing a player, that takes years. Who knows that bald maniac is crazy enough to pull that off.
 
To play the dlp role talent and legs are required. Zidane, Hannibal and Garner have the natural ability to play there and could be molded into the role.

None of Fred, McTominay, vdBeek and Eriksen can play there.

Another solution is to play without a dm/dlp. Fred/McT, Eriksen/vdBeek and Bruno could work.
 
Sandikan said:
McFred will be developed into our starting midfield 2.
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This is quite possible and we may start the season with McFred. If he does, he is setting himself up to be sacked (which I think will happen in his 3rd year).
McFred are both hard workers, but neither have the requisite skills necessary to win trophies. Scott McT belongs in the Championship.

The worrying thing is that a lot of forum members seem to believe that ETH is a miracle worker and when he isn't able to transform players like Fred or McT, they'll be really disappointed and will likely turn on him quickly.
ETH will need to be given time to improve things. He probably won't win trophies, but he needs to progress us forward so that when we hire the next manager, that manager can attempt to win trophies in his 1st year.
 
OrcaFat said:
Fred doesn’t have any of the right qualities to play the DeJong role.
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Ekeke said:
I think this'll only happen if he hasnt watched Fred playing the role for us in the past. When pressed in deep positions he has no composure and often has a bad touch or pass that turns over the ball. Its also what happened when Andreas was given a few games there by Mourinho, he did the same thing it cost us and then Mourinho dropped him. This is exactly what you cant have in that position.
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cyril C said:
Raw talent alone will not make it as holding player, you need experience and calmness in that role. Few seasons back, Fred was prefer over Matic on that role, then someone think he was not good enough and want to train McTom instead. Don't know what went wrong but BOTH end up like shitty last season.
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Do I think that Fred is as good as FdJ? Well considering I say I’ve been a big critic. No but people are thinking EtH is going to thrust Garner [or any other youngster] in suddenly having started more senior players in the pre-seasons friendlies I doubt it.

FdJ isn’t a player that is easily replicated so to ‘make one’ won’t happen over night, in the immediacy of this season I believe Fred will be asked to try some of the things we’d want from FdJ.

We have a system with defined roles now but I’m sure even if we had FdJ in the games he wasn’t to start EtH would look to tailor that role somewhat to whoever is playing.
Revaulx said:
I’m pretty certain we will. If EtH is anything like LvG, which in some way he seems to be, he will be using them as first choice backups rather than having an army of squad players.
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I agree. I just don’t think we’ll see a Garner suddenly getting 20+ games & starting in Europe every other week. He’ll exhaust options with a Van de Beek before anything like that happens.
 
AFC NimbleThumb said:
Do I think that Fred is as good as FdJ? Well considering I say I’ve been a big critic. No but people are thinking EtH is going to thrust Garner [or any other youngster] in suddenly having started more senior players in the pre-seasons friendlies I doubt it.

FdJ isn’t a player that is easily replicated so to ‘make one’ won’t happen over night, in the immediacy of this season I believe Fred will be asked to try some of the things we’d want from FdJ.

We have a system with defined roles now but I’m sure even if we had FdJ in the games he wasn’t to start EtH would look to tailor that role somewhat to whoever is playing.

I agree. I just don’t think we’ll see a Garner suddenly getting 20+ games & starting in Europe every other week. He’ll exhaust options with a Van de Beek before anything like that happens.
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Okay but Fred was playing further forward in the friendlies. It was McTom playing the deep role
 
It's just the club line from every summer repeated. There's no mystery or deeper plan, he'll desperately want someone in but the message is managed in case we dont.
 
Sandikan said:
McFred will be developed into our starting midfield 2.
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They were never done any favours by Ole’s setup with a defence that stayed deep, and a front four who countered quickly. When our attack was dispossessed (which was often because we were playing high risk passes and not prioritizing possession), the were was a massive gap in the midfield for two players to cover. On the ball, they were incapable of Modric-like passes that counterattacking teams need, so they played safe passes into the fullbacks or Bruno and stood there.

I won’t even attempt to understand what happened under Rangnick, but at least Fred had a clearer role and he did quite a bit better.

They’re not world beaters and we should upgrade if and when we can, but they’ll definitely benefit from a more well thought out setup.

I also think they’re too similar to both be in midfield. Both are energetic midfielders who can cover a lot of ground, decent in the opponent’s box but not great, limited passing range, and not the most tactically astute players (like they are completely incapable of knowing when they should tactically foul). You can get away with one of them starting, in the right setup, but probably not both.
 
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cyril C said:
Raw talent alone will not make it as holding player, you need experience and calmness in that role. Few seasons back, Fred was prefer over Matic on that role, then someone think he was not good enough and want to train McTom instead. Don't know what went wrong but BOTH end up like shitty last season.
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Fred lacks the physicality and passing range to do this job in the long run. Long term..Hannibal is the closest thing we have to Dejong.
 
Ekeke said:
Okay but Fred was playing further forward in the friendlies. It was McTom playing the deep role
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I see FdJ doing parts of both what we get from McT & Fred but better. He’s the type to pick the ball up from deep & progress it with 1-2s/dribbling. You wouldn’t buy FdJ then tell him to play as McT has in the friendlies for instance. Say we had FdJ + 1 of McFred their roles would change to accommodate the better player.

I think the develop comment is more short term, I don’t think we get a no from FdJ then wait 3/4 years for a youth product to be ready. If we don’t get him this summer we either go for him again next year or identify a ready made player to bring in. I just think Fred will be given a bulk of the responsibilities FdJ would assume.
 
Not sure how significant this is but in the last training vid, Hannibal was playing quite deep. It may be he's still considered an option - personally I prefer him higher up the field though
 
It's why out of all CB he wanted Martinez. At least that guy looks like he can be a decent DM when needed.
 
Ekeke said:
Okay but Fred was playing further forward in the friendlies. It was McTom playing the deep role
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This summer's friendlies? That isn't what I saw when I watched the Palace game in particular and I don't think it was the general perception either. McTominay and then VDB were pretty clearly taking up more advanced positions than Fred.

ETH just yesterday described Fred as being in the "connector" role and a lot of people covering United seem to have taken that as referring to the role FDJ is intended to occupy as the deepest midfielder. And pretty much all the various tactics breakdowns and randomer commenters on twitter I've seen describing our set-up against Palace at least perceived Fred as the deepest of our midfielders. Random examples:











And so on.

And that's broadly what I would expect to continue if no other midfielder was signed.
 
Smores said:
It's just the club line from every summer repeated. There's no mystery or deeper plan, he'll desperately want someone in but the message is managed in case we dont.
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Yeah prepare for the worst and hope for the best
 
EtH said Fred is playing connector role, so it will be him.
 
Ekeke said:
Okay but Fred was playing further forward in the friendlies. It was McTom playing the deep role
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Fred is not playing further forward, as we build the play we have entire team except CBs near the box, so Fred is naturally near the box. For Sancho goal it was Fred who received pass from De Gea.

EtH also said Fred is playing connector role.


“In the moment he is playing in the role as connecter, defending to offence,” said Ten Hag. “He is playing the role quite well. I am satisfied with his performance, with his improvement.

“I think he can even be better. I will support him in that. He also brings energy in the team by his attitude.
 
I actually think our pre-season thus far has painted a pretty clear picture of what the plan is, at least at the start of the season. If the Brighton game was tomorrow it'd be this:

De Gea
Dalot - Maguire - Lindelof - Shaw
McTominay - Fred
Sancho - Bruno - Rashford
Martial
​
Based on ETH's comments Martinez will almost certainly take Lindelof's place. Maybe Malacia will eventually oust Shaw. We have yet to see where Eriksen will play but going by ETH's comments it's more likely to be an advanced role (which may include the #8 role McTominay/VDB played against Palace).

But it's pretty clear that the younger players aren't going to suddenly leap-frog Fred in that deeper role we saw against Palace. He'll be replaced by FDJ if FDJ signs.
 
JJ12 said:
ETH is showing you the formation if FDJ isn’t signed and who will play. It’ll be 2 midfielder’s likely McTominay and Fred.

We need to upgrade McTominay but I think Fred really could be brilliant in the right system.
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Doubt it Scot would start under ETH. I think we will play double 8's in the smaller games(Bruno and Eriksen) and have DvB/Mctomminay deputise if needed.

I imagine Fred could play that 6/8 hybrid role, but his passing is very limited sadly. Maybe Gardner could have shown us what he is capable of if he wasn't injured.


The team would most likely be:

De Gea
Dalot - Maguire - Lisandro - Shaw

Fred

Eriksen
Bruno

Sancho Rashford

Martial
 
Zidane is far away from ready but stylistically he is the closest to FdJ (also apparently studies Frenkie's game to model himself on). Garner IMO is more for the partner to Frenkie rather than Frenkie, he's not much of a mover with the ball and never struck me as press resistant unlike Zidane. Savage also more the partner to the main playmaker, though also he's far away from even being at the stage where you can say how much potential he has.
 
I'm not sure the scope or full context of this statement but I'm guess he didn't mean it too literally, well I hope. Rangnick actually also praised McFred as a solution when he first got here and soon learnt they couldn't deter a fly as a pair. I actually like both but they have the same positional weaknesses out of possession. Compounded by docile CBs who themselves were positionally suspect.

Imo it doesn't matter how good the tactics are, no team with 2 deep CMs should be waltzed through as much as we were. The space shouldn't even be there, the both of them just somehow go invisible when teams run at us. Also pretty mediocre at tracking runners when the ball is wide.
 
Ekeke said:
I dont disagree that it isnt helping him, but I think its just the truth. And if he really really wanted to play the position I think he would have done so because we obviously think hes a big talent, thats why we signed him. I dont think Pogba would have been played out of position in our reserves when we signed him for example.

So to me I think Hannibal has decided he likes to be more of an attacker than playing deep. A bit like Pogba in that he could do it, but he's a forward moving player rather than one thats going to be depended on for midfield positioning.
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Pogba was played out of position in our reserves when he had to make room for Gibson.

I don't see how you can decide what his preference is. He's a young player who wants to make the step up. If the coaches who are paid to develop you and are in charge of whether you play for the first team or not, tell you to play a position, you will do what they ask. Not doing so will mean you have an attitude problem. Every young player when asked in an interview will tell you they will play wherever the coaches want them too. They are desperate to make it.

Hannibal whenever he plays in midfield does not venture too far forward. His problem is more so on the defensive side (positioning). However, that is a problem for lots of midfield talents (both at youth level and at first team level). Hence why a need for a more defensive midfielder is often needed to complete the midfield's quality.

Hannibal has the stamina (work rate), demands the ball, has a great first touch, can dribble, is a great passer, and is calm under pressure. He has all the qualities needed to succeed in midfield. It's up to the coaches to play him there. The coaches don't always get it right. In the example with Pogba, there is no way Pogba should accommodate Gibson, but it happened. United tend to do that to many of our brightest talents, while also not doing so for some of our better talents. I don't know why. I think they think having knowledge of multiple positions helps them understand their positional awareness. However that is applied more sporadically and some top talents get played in more positions than other top players. Why the inconsistency in regards to this? Only they are privy to that information.
 
However you slice and dice the 6 and 8, we need quality and also backup. We currently have McT and Fred. DVB can only really play the more advanced 8 role. So I do think one if the youth may be given a role this year - Garner is most likely. I am not sure what he is planning for CB and LB. I don’t think Martinez has been signed to sit on the bench so that means one of Varane or Maguire will be on the bench.
 
I think TH is only starting McFred because his options have been limited. I yhink if Garner had have been fit he would have been tried by now. We know McFred doesnt work in the premier that good already. Neither have the passing range and at 29/30 this season Fred is too old and limited to be retrained. McTom is a bit younger but also a limited player and is better further forward. I think Garner Savage and Iqbal in that order have the best chance if we go down that route
 
bosnian_red said:
Zidane is far away from ready but stylistically he is the closest to FdJ (also apparently studies Frenkie's game to model himself on). Garner IMO is more for the partner to Frenkie rather than Frenkie, he's not much of a mover with the ball and never struck me as press resistant unlike Zidane. Savage also more the partner to the main playmaker, though also he's far away from even being at the stage where you can say how much potential he has.
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Correct. Fred can play connector but FDJ is more than just that. Iqbal is closest to his style and can be eventually groomed to play that role.
 
sullydnl said:
I actually think our pre-season thus far has painted a pretty clear picture of what the plan is, at least at the start of the season. If the Brighton game was tomorrow it'd be this:

De Gea
Dalot - Maguire - Lindelof - Shaw
McTominay - Fred
Sancho - Bruno - Rashford
Martial
​
Based on ETH's comments Martinez will almost certainly take Lindelof's place. Maybe Malacia will eventually oust Shaw. We have yet to see where Eriksen will play but going by ETH's comments it's more likely to be an advanced role (which may include the #8 role McTominay/VDB played against Palace).

But it's pretty clear that the younger players aren't going to suddenly leap-frog Fred in that deeper role we saw against Palace. He'll be replaced by FDJ if FDJ signs.
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I could see it working out that way.
 
In Rainbows said:
Pogba was played out of position in our reserves when he had to make room for Gibson.

I don't see how you can decide what his preference is. He's a young player who wants to make the step up. If the coaches who are paid to develop you and are in charge of whether you play for the first team or not, tell you to play a position, you will do what they ask. Not doing so will mean you have an attitude problem. Every young player when asked in an interview will tell you they will play wherever the coaches want them too. They are desperate to make it.

Hannibal whenever he plays in midfield does not venture too far forward. His problem is more so on the defensive side (positioning). However, that is a problem for lots of midfield talents (both at youth level and at first team level). Hence why a need for a more defensive midfielder is often needed to complete the midfield's quality.

Hannibal has the stamina (work rate), demands the ball, has a great first touch, can dribble, is a great passer, and is calm under pressure. He has all the qualities needed to succeed in midfield. It's up to the coaches to play him there. The coaches don't always get it right. In the example with Pogba, there is no way Pogba should accommodate Gibson, but it happened. United tend to do that to many of our brightest talents, while also not doing so for some of our better talents. I don't know why. I think they think having knowledge of multiple positions helps them understand their positional awareness. However that is applied more sporadically and some top talents get played in more positions than other top players. Why the inconsistency in regards to this? Only they are privy to that information.
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I like Hannibal at 8. He could play 6 but he has the quality to be a game changer and playing 6 would not maximise his potential, imo. Still, we’re going to be a bit spoiled for choice in the 8/10 area so who knows.
 
Based just on performances and style of play the closest player we have to de jong is Zidane. I would imagine he would be the youth prospect to develop in that role. Hannibal plays further up and garner doesnt have the same close control in tight spaces that iqbal has.
 
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