Now that the dust has settled, it's humiliating and rage-induing but ultimately it's just a league game, albeit a bitter one. To compare to Brazil losing 7-1 to Germany or Barca losing 8-2 to Bayern, they were knockout games, no chance of respite. Let's not forget we lost 6-1 to City under Fergie and then went on a brilliant winning run. Football is only as good as your last game and it hit extra hard for those teams because it was their last game of the season. It's far from ours and it's all about the reaction. If we beat Betis 4-0 with brilliant football, it won't make up for the Liverpool game but football and news moves onto the next story.
When did rivalries stop mattering?
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Completely disagree tbh. This is the first time we are on course for a comfortable top 4 finish and actually have success in cups, while playing good football. Under Mourinho we played shit on a stick football, yes won some trophies in the first season but finished 6th and ignored the league that year. Van Gaal we had a promising first season, and then shit 2nd season but won an fa cup while being pretty shit in the league.
Even points totals, same boat as league finish. We finished 2nd under Mourinho with 81 points, while a quick understat check says that our xPts that season was 62 points. It was an overperformance of epic proportions. We were 6th in xPts that year... And proceeded to finish around there the following season which was our real level under Mou. Compared to this year, where we are deservedly 3rd (actually technically Brighton is 3rd in xPts this year after this past weekend, very underrated year they are having). Our attacking play is greatly improved, and we have shown very competent performances in a way that is very sustainable. We won a cup, of course piss easy cup run, but we still handled it very competently. Same with how we are doing in Europa League and FA Cup. Ten Hag has a 71% win rate. Far better than any previous manager post Sir Alex (and higher than Sir Alex even, though of course it's Europa and not CL). Our general play has improved tremendously, in a way that we are right up there with City and Arsenal in xPts, xG, xG against and real goals, goals against and points ever since Casemiro started his first game. And we are still maintaining an excellent cup record (easy to perform well while tossing out other cups, much harder to maintain a high level across all cups). The style of play he is implementing takes time and blips were to be expected (though still shit when it happens), but we've seen genuine progress. Genuine improvement across the vast majority of players, with clear limitations in the squad impacting how much we can actually reach where you can see a big step up if we address that. Under Ole and Mourinho, you had the feeling that we were already maxed out no matter who we signed, due to their inability to implement a sufficiently good system. Our home record under Ten Hag is fantastic for the first time in ages. Our performances against big teams at home has been excellent. Very good attitude when we concede generally (barring yesterday...). Had to deal with the Ronaldo distraction in the first half of the season.
For me, it's a no brainer that he's an excellent manager. Yes he too has to adapt and change how he does things, but those are minor and something he's already shown he is capable of doing.
I dunno mate, I'm pushing 40 and I still feel like someone has worked me over with a baseball bat after yesterday's result
. Far more so than the hidings we've suffered in recent seasons, as I just didn't see a capitulation like this coming this time around. All these threads and posts rebuking fellow fans about not being angry enough are nauseating though. Insofar as a bunch of people on a forum can affect anything, I can understand people after the Liverpool hidings last year expecting us to clamour for Ole out and Rangnick out, or Pogba not to be renewed, or Maguire to be dropped.What on earth are we supposed to be agitating for now though? Sacking the manager who has just led us to our first trophy in 6 years and is currently on a run of 16 wins, 3 draws and 2 losses in his first season here? Binning the likes of Varane and Casemiro and getting some proper winners instead? Dropping everyone who started yesterday and using the rest of our famously deep squad instead?
I think they still do considering how much it messed me up, sometimes i feel dumb for getting this worked up over a football game.
Whats the point in losing your temper? It wont change anything.
I walked out of Anfield at 6-0. Some stayed and supported the team till the final whistle. Everyone has different mechanisms of coping. I usually watch the match on TV after coming back from the game. However, I'm blanking out all sports stations and websites over the next few days.
Think this one is hitting fans harder because people were just starting to believe again. And to some extent, that has been shaken. In those results you mentioned, we were the top dog and could point to what we've done that nobody has managed to replicate in England. Your ego takes a hit, but you have that ammunition in the bank to hit back when we're number one.
You can be a normal, functioning adult, go about your day like a normal person and still be bitterly disappointed on the inside with the result for a few days. And there's nothing worse in sport than utter humiliation. Disappointment hurts bad, but watching a complete humiliation like that cuts deep.
I was certainly hurting watching it and wasn't in any mood afterwards but the hyperbole afterwards whether it's United fans calling for players to be sold or manager to be sacked and xyz shouldn't ever be forgiven or Liverpool fans now saying they're the best in the world again etc etc. I'm personally not that type of person.
Some of the rubbish I've read and heard is childish at best. Today's football fans are spoilt brats and if people don't start throwing the toys out of the pram then their 'hipsters' or 'not real fans'
I lost a family member very recently, losing to Liverpool by a terrible scoreline just doesn't get me as upset as a real disaster in my life.
Sorry if that's not good enough for you
What? feck no, pretty sure everyone here was fecking pissed and yesterday was pretty shit after watching that abomination.
There's a difference between being fecking pissed, and making "Is it time to Burst Ten Hag's Bubble?" threads and similar shit though. The latter just shows a lack of intelligence
Some have better self control and kudos to them but the people saying they are not bothered or don't care about this result are simply not fans of the club. Period.
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it's an interesting situation I find myself in. If this happened a couple of years ago then I would blame it on ole, Jose, Ralf and players and the horrible fate we are presented with etc. Yesterday was, ahem ok get back to earth humiliation but with a realization that this is only a step back for 3 steps forward. Having faith is a wonderful thing. I am still bitter about losing to pool though. Such a myriad of emotions. is it worth it? who knows but does it make you feel alive? yup.
onwards we go sailing into the premier league
onwards we go sailing into the premier league
What do you suggest then Denis? Should we rip up our e-season tickets? Should we storm the pitch Thursday? Should we demand the players on the pitch yesterday never play for the club again?
I edited my post to better express myself. Some fans have better self-control than me for instance and that's great but several have posted that they are not bothered by this loss, couldn't care less etc. You can not be a fan If a fecking 7-0 loss to your arch rivals doesn't bother you.
Fair enough if that's the case, I have to be honest I haven't seen anyone saying they're not bothered by it. Realistically it was a freak game and as long as we bounce back over the next few weeks it'll be a distant memory. Admittedly they'll always have it but if it's their only decent memory in a year where we can win a couple of trophies and finish in the top 3 then I'd take it. It certainly didn't feel as bad walking out yesterday as it did last year.
Why would you let it affect you? It's happened, you move on. I'm not 16 years old anymore, football isn't everything. You get older and you have more important things to worry about, wife, kids, bills etc.
Spot on mate, and condolences on your loss, football is a game and in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter as much as some folks seem to think it does
Yeah that's all very fair and very true, actually.
I dunno mate, I'm pushing 40 and I still feel like someone has worked me over with a baseball bat after yesterday's result
What on earth are we supposed to be agitating for now though? Sacking the manager who has just led us to our first trophy in 6 years and is currently on a run of 16 wins, 3 draws and 2 losses in his first season here? Binning the likes of Varane and Casemiro and getting some proper winners instead? Dropping everyone who started yesterday and using the rest of our famously deep squad instead?
Yeah also fair comment. I don't mean to say it doesn't affect me at all, but hopefully in the daytime at least you have other things to keep your mind off it? Anyway I take your and @eire-red point, it feels more annoying than anything because of how well we were doing and the potential a result like this has to upset our momentum; that's a bit different to the OP's question because it's more situational/contextual this time, independent of the Liverpool rivalry to some degree, but yeah the fact that it's Liverpool makes it even worse.
They never stop mattering. We just lost 3 points on a close title race, the kind of 3 points that are "make or break" at the end of the season. We also lost by a seven-goal difference to fecking Liverpool. If that does not sicken you I don't know what will.
When we were still winning shit
right now we are on the cusp of “being back” and I won’t let 1 result shake that belief
It was an out of character display along with some incredible bad luck
We are not in a close title race
Liverpool of the 90s/00s were about rivals
We were about winning silverware
I know which I rather
The meaning of rivalries has changed a little over the years, 30 years ago our true rivalries were basically City, Liverpool and to an extent Leeds, now it's expanded to include teams that are challenging or beating us for trophies
Think most are hurting but who they can blame it for? Players? Yes and people have taken aim at the usual suspects and their laziness in general but ultimately it comes down to the manager more than the players and no one wants to blame Ten Hag for anything right now which is understandable given the job he has done do far after taking over shambles of a team last season. Any other manager in place of him not doing well or even him not doing well then this result would result in a bloodbath.
Having said all that, I also do think he has been overly praised to heavens by fans. I do acknowledge his work till now but I still have some doubts about him being a truly elite manager and taking us to the very top. I don’t like his insistence on wasting 80m on an average winger in Antony, I don’t like some of his naive approach to games like yesterday and I don’t like him playing 4-2-3-1. Whether he is truly top class or not, only time will tell. But for now, he has my support even though I’m still angry over yesterdays result and has criticised him abit.
Having said all that, I also do think he has been overly praised to heavens by fans. I do acknowledge his work till now but I still have some doubts about him being a truly elite manager and taking us to the very top. I don’t like his insistence on wasting 80m on an average winger in Antony, I don’t like some of his naive approach to games like yesterday and I don’t like him playing 4-2-3-1. Whether he is truly top class or not, only time will tell. But for now, he has my support even though I’m still angry over yesterdays result and has criticised him abit.
Really good rebuttal to my post. I think that the point total is a bit meh (in course for 75 points), but this will likely be the first time we both finish in top 4 and win a cup. Something that no other manager managed to (Ole should have if he didn’t feck up against Sociedad).
I think the most important take from your post and something I agree is that when I wanted Ole and Mourinho out (after their 2nd place finishes) it was mostly cause it looked to me that this is the best they can do. The seasons in isolation were good enough (second place with 81 points, second place and Europa final), but that was their maximum they can offer and that maximum was not enough. In ten Hag’s place, I feel that this is just the start, and there is nothing to suggest that he has maxed out. In fact, I think it is the exact opposite.
However, at the same time it is too early to tell. People were talking for him like he is in the same category as Pep or Klopp which is nuts. He is still a rookie compared to them and could easily be just another Villas Boas or whatever promising manager that didn’t become that good.
To conclude, I am reasonably happy with the season so far, but I also acknowledge that a lot remains to be done, and strongly reject the notion that so far it has been spectacular or he has done a miracle. He has done a decent job in what is so far a decent season, with signs that things will improve a lot in the future. That’s my take in the season.
Off on holiday today and tomorrow and I'm spending most of the time cabbaged on the sofa, so unfortunately not
. To me the OP was just a bullshit rhetorical point rather than a question at all, which is why it has irritated people.I have faith in the direction the club is taking so I'm not going to fake some anger, even though I was pretty pissed yesterday. The 3 games before Liverpool were more important for our season than the game at Anfield. If we lose the next couple games I'll be worried, but for now no need to panic.
Don't forget the amount of games United played this season.
Don't forget the amount of games United played this season.
Yeah pretty much. I'd be shocked if we didn't push on, because this is clearly the start of us implementing the system and generally mistakes cost us far more than a systemic issue (yesterday was a different thing that I'll just leave to ten hag to deal with, but they did definitely exploit things). And even more important is how quickly ten hag learns to adjust and rectify issues. No manager will have a magic formula right away, they have to know how to adapt and win the next time, and Ten Hag has been very good with that.
I agree with the Klopp and Pep thing though for sure. These 2 are both all timers, and Ten Hag will do well to be compared to them when his time is up. But I wouldn't swap anyone else for him and I really think he has what it takes to be up there. But it's something that seemingly so many on here don't realize. The amount of posts like "it's unacceptable for the opposition to ever be more up for a game or be better set up for a game" is just nonsense. There are other great managers, other big clubs with their own targets. The players are human, the manager is human. It's natural to occasionally be 2nd best in desire, system, whatever.
Fair enough though. I don't think he's done miracles tbh, but i do think he's an excellent manager and that he's perfect for us and will have us competing at the top regularly (which is important as I don't think he is a one off sort of guy who can only play in 1 way, he's shown to be adaptable throughout his career). I think we've had our best season post Sir Alex because he's kind of ticked every box so far, and "best season" for me includes optimistic feelings for the future. Like you said... We both wanted Mourinho and Ole sacked after their best seasons. It was the max they could do, their football was about grinding out games and you didn't see any room for growth. Similar to Conte at Spurs. No point in continuing if their ceiling isn't enough. With Ten Hag, the ceiling is competing for the CL, which is as good as it gets IMO.
So idk, it feels weird but it's easy enough to write off and move past the few hammerings we've had as flukey. It's not like they should be ignored, it's something to of course learn from. But i guess i have 0 concern with them as I know Ten Hag will adapt and learn from them, and kick on with us. It's not like we were actually in the title challenge, and I don't think it has any impact in us finishing top 4 this season, so beyond "being a rivalry", it really wasn't that important of a game for us and was far bigger for them (which showed).
It was, no doubt.
But I would still give one of the 4 League Cups won during SAF's era in exchange of one 7-0 victory over the Scousers in those years
I guess the rivalry with Liverpool is still the most heartfelt for those of my generation. Things were simpler 20-30 years ago
The manager has rightly faced some criticism for his team selection, tactics and subs, but at the end of the day if some players just fall to pieces and/or give up it doesn't matter if you're SAF, Ole, LvG or anyone else, there's bugger all you can do about it in the game.
We the fans saw what happened, as the manager he surely must have, what he does to ensure it doesn't happen again in the next few games is probably going to define his career at United
Bravo. Couldn't have said it more succinctly myself.
Good post there.
I do think there's an interesting discussion to be had about the United-Liverpool rivalry specifically regarding the players(not the fans).
I always feel like the game matters more to their players than our players. And even during the Fergie years, they gave us tough games while we were much better. They never really rolled over for us as we've done so recently. It's infuriating and I hope it changes starting next season.
I always feel like the game matters more to their players than our players. And even during the Fergie years, they gave us tough games while we were much better. They never really rolled over for us as we've done so recently. It's infuriating and I hope it changes starting next season.
If that roll over yesterday has not kick started in the players minds what kind of rivalry this is then nothing ever will.
Personal pride alone should have the players counting down the hours until they meet them again.
Until then you would hope they would tune their anger(and they should have a lot of that) in a positive way towards our next fixtures.
But the worry is that yesterday showed a deep character flaw within the team when they just gave up , these character flaws normally don't go away , they tend to resurface again and again.
I would agree with this. I'm having a very hard time processing that defeat, because of that.
We gave up vs Liverpool at Anfield in a Premier League game. A cardinal sin for a United player.
You miss the point. A few years back, someone mentioned to me that he would rather have MU at position 17, as long as Liverpool is below us. So if you ask them which would you pick a) EPL Champion but lost to Liverpool back to back big time, or b) 5th but beat Liverpool home and away. Answer to them is simple.
Self preservation mostly. Ignore it as your heart cant take it anymore.
Football doesn't matter, it's just escapism. 22 Athletes kicking a ball around, why should it matter?
And when you lose 7-0 it's not an enjoyable form of escapism so you go "meh" or ignore it.
And when you lose 7-0 it's not an enjoyable form of escapism so you go "meh" or ignore it.
Does everyone experience football like this?