What should be done with City's titles?

What should be done with City's titles?

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tomaldinho1 said:
Pretty sure you’ll find every team in the league doesn’t want a cheat in their midst. Name a team that wouldn’t care?

Clubs have missed out on titles, European qualifications, been relegated all because of the knock on effect. United would have won, what 2 titles, not that I am bothered or want them awarded post punishment but seems quite daft question to ask? If you finish second and the team above you cheated, you are the highest placed legit team.

PL teams whose finances aren’t clean are getting punished… City’s infringements are just so vast it will take years to do anything. And even then will the gov - because it will be a gov decision - actually have the balls to do anything?
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Will it be a government decision?

Won't it be down to the PL member clubs to decide?
 
stevoc said:
Will it be a government decision?

Won't it be down to the PL member clubs to decide?
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The government cant get involved as that would be a breach of FIFA rules and would see the FA be suspended from all International competitions.

If expulsion is recomended it will be down to the Premier League member clubs to vote on whether that happens?
 
njred said:
I would say strip the titles over the last 10 years and give the second place team that stayed within 5 points to make it fair. This way the team that now has the PL will at least deserved it. That was the rumor of what would happen. Let’s hope so
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Thereby ensuring Liverpool get 3 extra titles and United get 0.

A Scouser's unbiased version of fair.
 
njred said:
I would say strip the titles over the last 10 years and give the second place team that stayed within 5 points to make it fair. This way the team that now has the PL will at least deserved it. That was the rumor of what would happen. Let’s hope so
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These charges only cover the period between 2010 to 2018.
 
RedRocket9908 said:
The government cant get involved as that would be a breach of FIFA rules and would see the FA be suspended from all International competitions.

If expulsion is recomended it will be down to the Premier League member clubs to vote on whether that happens?
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That's how it should work but there's credible accounts that they already interfered with the PL over the Newcastle takeover.
 
DJ_21 said:
If they scraped the titles I don’t think it would work giving it to 2nd team places anyway. They’ll be no celebration for them, it would just be very weird. They could scrap them and just void the season as no prem winners. I’d rather them keep the titles anyway because they mean nothing, there still miles behind us in titles won, also it would mean Liverpool having a few more. I’d just rather them get relegated and have done with it.
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Look at the wider implications for teams, CL qualification, FA Cup, League Cup, teams relegated, it's a hornets nest and a minefield, this is why I think less than bugger all will happen.
I don't think Harry Potter could sort out that mess!
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Ok the PL will announce the decision but the gov will basically tell them what they can and can’t do.
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The idea that the UK government are going to dictate what a multi billion pound private business can and cant do is absurd to be honest. There'll be pressure behind the scenes which will be disregarded by an industry who are used to dictating terms to the government.
 
caid said:
The idea that the UK government are going to dictate what a multi billion pound private business can and cant do is absurd to be honest. There'll be pressure behind the scenes which will be disregarded by an industry who are used to dictating terms to the government.
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Who do you think brings more money into the UK between the PL and Abu Dhabi….?

Football/PL or whatever you want to call it, is a drop in the ocean.
 
GuybrushThreepwood said:
On that theme, I always thought it was a joke that the 2005/2006 Serie A title was awarded to Inter, instead of being left vacant.

I know at the time Inter hadn't won the Scudetto for 17 long years since 1989, but I found it embarrasing that some fans that i came across were celebrating that handout title enthusiastically, as the club had actually won it on the pitch.
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They did. They were the best non cheating club.
 
Fortitude said:
Who do you think brings more money into the UK between the PL and Abu Dhabi….?

Football/PL or whatever you want to call it, is a drop in the ocean.
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What bring in more money between American Capital, Saudi Arabia, Chinese Investors etc. etc. etc. or Abu Dhabi?
They'll avoid it like the plague and do what they're told (stay out of it)
 
caid said:
The idea that the UK government are going to dictate what a multi billion pound private business can and cant do is absurd to be honest. There'll be pressure behind the scenes which will be disregarded by an industry who are used to dictating terms to the government.
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I mean, I can literally just point to the Newcastle situation to disprove this…try again.
 
caid said:
What bring in more money between American Capital, Saudi Arabia, Chinese Investors etc. etc. etc. or Abu Dhabi?
They'll avoid it like the plague and do what they're told (stay out of it)
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So you think the government, who made sure Newcastle under Saudi Arabia were ushered into the league, don’t pull the appropriate strings for those they have massively lucrative trade deals with that make football look like a grain of sand in financial terms, or sorry; that the horse leads the cart when states are involved..?

Between Saudi Arabia and Abu Dhabi, you might as well not talk about football in terms of profitability to the government.
 
The caveat for “football “ is the massive betting industry anchored to it, but even then, it’s comparing a planet to a satellite.
 
They will get away with it, any punishment will just be for show and there is no way they will have titles taken off them.
 
Fortitude said:
So you think the government, who made sure Newcastle under Saudi Arabia were ushered into the league, don’t pull the appropriate strings for those they have massively lucrative trade deals with that make football look like a grain of sand in financial terms, or sorry; that the horse leads the cart when states are involved..?

Between Saudi Arabia and Abu Dhabi, you might as well not talk about football in terms of profitability to the government.
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How much?
 
My two cents is that in a league table where the places are determined by the number of points accrued over the course of the season, if the first place team is disqualified for whatever reason, then that means that the team in second place have fairly accumulated the most points over the course of the season and thus should be awarded the title, and are the ones deserving of it.
 
Jaffa Cakes II said:
I guess it's the 'cheated' thing that gets me thinking. Do you really believe that all the other clubs are honest, upright gentlemen, true to a fault and squeaky clean? I don't for one second. If the premier league clubs accountants and lawyers are anything like those I've encountered in my career, they'll be up to every trick in the book to present their accounts in as favourable a light as possible, stretching this and bending that, underestimating this and overestimating that. The Glazers never struck me as virtuous angels - far from it.
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Do you have any idea of what City have been up to for the last 2 decades?

The cheating aspect is more that most PL clubs are run as businesses. Owners may be up to a few tricks to gain some tax breaks but this will be as far as it goes. These owners are not going to pump Billions into a club for no return as City's owners have.

I believe FFP was brought in to stop other clubs replicating the City model. There is a dearth of mad billionaires looking to squander their wealth on a football club.

The problem has been that charges against City have not been brought early enough. If you don't stop a cheat they will just carry on cheating. City have an entire countries wealth at their disposal. There is no reason for them to try & run as a self-sustaining business if owner funding isn't an issue & there are no rules to abide by.

We are now in the farcical situation of having a small/medium sized club recording revenues not much lower than Real Marid. This is like a corner shop claiming their revenue to be not much lower than Asda's.
 
GiveItToGi...nowait said:
Exports would be the one to google.
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In a working relationship where more and more money is being pumped into the country (reference what Abu Dhabi are doing in Manchester and both are doing in London), not really. It’s a deep financial well that runs deeper by the year.
 
Fortitude said:
In a working relationship where more and more money is being pumped into the country (reference what Abu Dhabi are doing in Manchester and both are doing in London), not really. It’s a deep financial well that runs deeper by the year.
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Relationships go two ways.

It’s £8billion in exports to Abu Dhabi vs £5billion the last broadcast deal for the PL according to google. Neither of those take into account “The deep financial well” or the wider impact of matchdays, soft power, hospitality etc. and I doubt there is any reliable data that does so it’s all just guess work and being cynical.
 
GiveItToGi...nowait said:
Relationships go two ways.

It’s £8billion in exports to Abu Dhabi vs £5billion the last broadcast deal for the PL according to google. Neither of those take into account “The deep financial well” or the wider impact of matchdays, soft power, hospitality etc. and I doubt there is any reliable data that does so it’s all just guess work and being cynical.
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Again, exports is a fraction especially when money is coming into the country. Abu Dhabi are investing heavily in Manchester and London. Saudi Arabia are well known.
 
Fortitude said:
Again, exports is a fraction especially when money is coming into the country. Abu Dhabi are investing heavily in Manchester and London. Saudi Arabia are well known.
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They’ve got physical assets and cash invested in this country and you think that gives them leverage?
 
Fortitude said:
So you think the government, who made sure Newcastle under Saudi Arabia were ushered into the league, don’t pull the appropriate strings for those they have massively lucrative trade deals with that make football look like a grain of sand in financial terms, or sorry; that the horse leads the cart when states are involved..?

Between Saudi Arabia and Abu Dhabi, you might as well not talk about football in terms of profitability to the government.
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Bringing Saudi Arabia into the party feels quite different to taking over the party and changing the rules for one participants benefit. People will say 'oh the government wont want them punished' today and 'the government will bring in an independent regulator if the PL dont punish them' tomorrow. I dont think they'll be relevant and the independent regulator will come whatever the outcome.
They might get away with it. But it'll be because of the army of lawyers not Jacob Rees Mogg or whoever saying careful there - i dont even know who he'd be saying it to in the event it happened.
 
Fortitude said:
Again, exports is a fraction especially when money is coming into the country. Abu Dhabi are investing heavily in Manchester and London. Saudi Arabia are well known.
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The UK sells a lot of military related stuff, highly trained and paid workers that wouldn't have jobs adds up to a lot of money as well
 
Red in STL said:
The UK sells a lot of military related stuff, highly trained and paid workers that wouldn't have jobs adds up to a lot of money as well
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I didn’t wanna tack that on, tbh. People think it’s conspiratorial as is and I didn’t want to add that particular revenue stream despite it being a massive source of income in its own right.

”We” do a lot more business with them than I think people realise; just vast amounts of profit.
 
caid said:
Bringing Saudi Arabia into the party feels quite different to taking over the party and changing the rules for one participants benefit. People will say 'oh the government wont want them punished' today and 'the government will bring in an independent regulator if the PL dont punish them' tomorrow. I dont think they'll be relevant and the independent regulator will come whatever the outcome.
They might get away with it. But it'll be because of the army of lawyers not Jacob Rees Mogg or whoever saying careful there - i dont even know who he'd be saying it to in the event it happened.
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But it’s about so much more than City and their punishment by now. This is a powder keg situation that can really scandalise the product if they have the punishment meted out that they would be due in a fair/just world. There’s got to be vested interest in not having the upcoming shitstorm of all affected parties being up in arms demanding recompense for their own loss of earnings etc because of the illegal alien who saw them relegated or nudged out of European competition or even not promoted.

I said in the City thread that it doesn’t take much for this to go away despite the subsequent uproar from fans. City can be given unprecedented fines and points penalties and still remain in the PL with the matter addressed as far as punishment goes. Even a 60pt deduction would see them stay up, despite it being seen as an extraordinary point penalty.

There’s so much wrong with this case, I really don’t get how people think normal metrics can or will be applied. Ignore all white noise and outcry and take a look at all the factors; there’s so much more riding on this than the fan perception of what justice is; it’s a cataclysmic event if taken to a natural conclusion, one which neither the league nor government will want any part of.

From a watch the world burn pov, it’d be quite something to see what the landscape would look like with the proverbial nuke detonated, but nobody in power actively works against their own interests and slapping away golden handshakes and also feather and tarring your own brand (that you permitted these cheats to run wild for so long they have become bedrock in the product you sell) is just not going to happen. All in my opinion, of course.
 
Fortitude said:
But it’s about so much more than City and their punishment by now. This is a powder keg situation that can really scandalise the product if they have the punishment meted out that they would be due in a fair/just world. There’s got to be vested interest in not having the upcoming shitstorm of all affected parties being up in arms demanding recompense for their own loss of earnings etc because of the illegal alien who saw them relegated or nudged out of European competition or even not promoted.

I said in the City thread that it doesn’t take much for this to go away despite the subsequent uproar from fans. City can be given unprecedented fines and points penalties and still remain in the PL with the matter addressed as far as punishment goes. Even a 60pt deduction would see them stay up, despite it being seen as an extraordinary point penalty.

There’s so much wrong with this case, I really don’t get how people think normal metrics can or will be applied. Ignore all white noise and outcry and take a look at all the factors; there’s so much more riding on this than the fan perception of what justice is; it’s a cataclysmic event if taken to a natural conclusion, one which neither the league nor government will want any part of.

From a watch the world burn pov, it’d be quite something to see what the landscape would look like with the proverbial nuke detonated, but nobody in power actively works against their own interests and slapping away golden handshakes and also feather and tarring your own brand (that you permitted these cheats to run wild for so long they have become bedrock in the product you sell) is just not going to happen. All in my opinion, of course.
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Yeah i think you've probably called the end game about right there, its basically a minor quibble with how relevant the british government are going to be in the matter. They might be able to nudge it a bit and thats a hell of a lot more than any and every fan group can manage. I just dont think the UAE applying pressure via the government is a significant part of their plan. I'm sure they'll use any and every bit of leverage they can and its come up but im skeptical about how effective that'll be.
 
Jaffa Cakes II said:
I guess it's the 'cheated' thing that gets me thinking. Do you really believe that all the other clubs are honest, upright gentlemen, true to a fault and squeaky clean? I don't for one second. If the premier league clubs accountants and lawyers are anything like those I've encountered in my career, they'll be up to every trick in the book to present their accounts in as favourable a light as possible, stretching this and bending that, underestimating this and overestimating that. The Glazers never struck me as virtuous angels - far from it.
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Great idea,lets not imprison any criminals that have broken the law either,because i bet other people may have done some bad stuff that there is no evidence for,so just let people break laws and rules,happy days.Police officer pulls somebody up for speeding/drinkdriving,but lets them off the hook because other people might speed/ drink and drive.Lets not send players off either if rules mean nothing.Breaking rules is cheating,that is exactly what cheating is.
 
Fortitude said:
I didn’t wanna tack that on, tbh. People think it’s conspiratorial as is and I didn’t want to add that particular revenue stream despite it being a massive source of income in its own right.

”We” do a lot more business with them than I think people realise; just vast amounts of profit.
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And a lot of people don't understand what the real world is like and why TBH

UK history has a lot to do with how the world works today as well, especially in the middle east
 
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