What kind of ownership would impact your fandom or make you lose interest in the club?

Dan_F said:
I haven’t really seen any debates about the accuracies of reports, happy to educate myself on them. I have a tendency to believe Amnesty are telling the truth though.

I would assume that big penalties were handed out to these private companies in that case, people put in prison, workers fully compensated? It’s an easy way for the state to deny involvement, but it just doesn’t wash.

I’m not even going to get into discussions about attitudes on gay rights, women’s right, freedom of expression. It’s been done so many times.
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Well the World Cup threads were full of it so no point repeating it all here

At least it should be understood some of us don’t think the whole story is accurate when it comes to Qatar. Maybe I’m wrong and misled but that doesn’t mean I support human rights violations since I’m not accepting that
 
Feck it. If Qatar can own a club, so should China and North Korea. Or any other country.

In my opinion, a state shouldn't own a football club.
 
The way I see it is that as long as they have the clubs best interest at heart then I don't care who we are owned by, We lived through the Glazer years we can get through anyone else
 
I'm in the judge Newcastle, but ignore morals when it's Man Utd camp.
 
I’ve not really been a big fan of any of the United owners, be that the Glazers, the shareholders when the club was floated, Magnier and McManus, Martin or Louis Edwards, so I doubt it will make too much difference who owns it going forward. Preferably they’ll invest in the team, the stadium, the training facilities and the Academy, more so than the Glazers did, which won’t be difficult
 
My support of Manchester United has nothing to do with who owns the club. Why would it? That is not to say that my actions wouldn't be impacted, and I have taken actions to get #GlazersOut.

If the Glazers for example sold us to Putin or the Talibans or whatever, its not like I would go -- wow I love Tottenham Hotspurs.
 
I never judged Newcastle, City or Chelsea (Abromovic). It is the way of the world.

I suppose United supporters could have got together and purchased the shares on the stock market and then put in a bid for the Glazers shares.

The thing is, we are fans we just wanted to watch our club be successful, both on and off the pitch. If we're not happy, we should then either protest this potential buyout from a state, or have a whip round and buy the club. If not, there's not much more we can do. No point fans trying to score points amongst themselves. It's pointless.
 
Messier1994 said:
My support of Manchester United has nothing to do with who owns the club. Why would it? That is not to say that my actions wouldn't be impacted, and I have taken actions to get #GlazersOut.

If the Glazers for example sold us to Putin or the Talibans or whatever, its not like I would go -- wow I love Tottenham Hotspurs.
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I'd be really annoyed at this. I would make it well known on all social media about my view on this. It would probably have little, to no impact at all. If that was the case, then I don't know what I'd do.

But I tell you what, I wouldn't waste my energy on debating it on the Cafe. What is the point?
 
My association with the club has never been influenced by the owners. That can be true whilst also calling out people who absolve human rights abuses as a "cultural differences"
 


The broader context of football certainly doesn't help. 'Tis rotten generally and the best we can hope for is a small oasis of less rot.
 
shamans said:
Well the World Cup threads were full of it so no point repeating it all here

At least it should be understood some of us don’t think the whole story is accurate when it comes to Qatar. Maybe I’m wrong and misled but that doesn’t mean I support human rights violations since I’m not accepting that
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Fair enough, I don’t recall any counter arguments that had conclusive proof to rule out abuse. Opinions sure, but even searching online, the closest I can find iQatar calling out western racism, with little in the way of facts to back it up. It really would not be hard to counter fake claims of high death numbers if the state did it’s job.

Maybe I would be far more open to the suggestion if we could see progress. Huge compensation for migrant works, admission of guilt and prosecution of those involved. There seems to be little desire for that.

I don’t think anyone is misguided enough to equate those that support state run bids as supporting human rights. Certain posts crying racism are just as weird.
 
Dan_F said:
Fair enough, I don’t recall any counter arguments that had conclusive proof to rule out abuse. Opinions sure, but even searching online, the closest I can find iQatar calling out western racism, with little in the way of facts to back it up. It really would not be hard to counter fake claims of high death numbers if the state did it’s job.

Maybe I would be far more open to the suggestion if we could see progress. Huge compensation for migrant works, admission of guilt and prosecution of those involved. There seems to be little desire for that.

I don’t think anyone is misguided enough to equate those that support state run bids as supporting human rights. Certain posts crying racism are just as weird.
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Qatar has come a long long way in the last decade you only have to know the overall rights of the country in the 90s. It still has a lot to do but it’s progressing faster than most western nations if you look at how much they improve every few years

As I have said before not 50 years ago England basically tortured a man who won them the war against Germans because he was gay ( Alan Turing ) . Nations take time to mature and develop.

As for racism I found none of it weird. There is definitely racism from some when talking about Qatar or Arabs from gulf. If you can’t see that I don’t know what to say because it’s pretty obvious. I’ve seen mods on here ban and remove posts on such threads. It’s also the preconceived notions regarding Arabs. Any hint of negative news and folks are quick to accept it as those backwards Arabs must be corrupt to the core in every instance.

Also talking about women: the amount of times the fact women are covered up there is mentioned as if it’s some form of torture is pretty weird.

there were even some posts with racist undertones towards Indian and Pakistani migrants who were labeled as fake/paid fans. Just because they don’t conform to your usual Latin or European style of fan culture they were mocked and ridiculed.

I don’t even wanna get started on the post colonial mindset when middle eastern countries are talked about
 
Criticism is not the same as racism. There are facts about how people are treated in Qatar, specifically women, LGTB persons and migrant workers.

It is like being called Anti-Semitic when you criticize Israel for killing Palestinians.

Call it out when it is present, but stop using racism as a stick to beat people who don‘t agree with you.
 
I'll never stop supporting the club, but i would be gutted if Avram and Joel buy out their siblings and somehow manage to cling on to the club. I don't see it happening now but its still a very dark cloud hovering on the horizon. Also ditto for other similar US investors.
 
Abdullah7 said:
what human rights valuations we are talking about? this is getting ridiculous.
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Your laws violate human rights of migrant workers and people with differing sexual orientations, and of course women.
 
Andersonson said:
Feck it. If Qatar can own a club, so should China and North Korea. Or any other country.

In my opinion, a state shouldn't own a football club.
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Of course not, but they opened pandora's box when they allowed City to be bought and run how they are. Who knows, in 30 years we might have a football version of the Cold War with every fecking country owning different clubs through intermediaries.
 
Adebisi's Hat said:
I'll never stop supporting the club, but i would be gutted if Avram and Joel buy out their siblings and somehow manage to cling on to the club. I don't see it happening now but its still a very dark cloud hovering n the horizon. Also ditto other similar US investors.
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The supporter‘s protests worked and they are looking to sell the club. Also, they have invested more this summer. Whatever happends, things have improved already.
 
NLunited said:
Your laws violate human rights of migrant workers and people with differing sexual orientations, and of course women.
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What kind of knowledge have you obtained around these subjects to be able to hurl these serious accusations so rapidly ?
 
shamans said:
Qatar has come a long long way in the last decade you only have to know the overall rights of the country in the 90s. It still has a lot to do but it’s progressing faster than most western nations if you look at how much they improve every few years

As I have said before not 50 years ago England basically tortured a man who won them the war against Germans because he was gay ( Alan Turing ) . Nations take time to mature and develop.

As for racism I found none of it weird. There is definitely racism from some when talking about Qatar or Arabs from gulf. If you can’t see that I don’t know what to say because it’s pretty obvious. I’ve seen mods on here ban and remove posts on such threads. It’s also the preconceived notions regarding Arabs. Any hint of negative news and folks are quick to accept it as those backwards Arabs must be corrupt to the core in every instance.

Also talking about women: the amount of times the fact women are covered up there is mentioned as if it’s some form of torture is pretty weird.

there were even some posts with racist undertones towards Indian and Pakistani migrants who were labeled as fake/paid fans. Just because they don’t conform to your usual Latin or European style of fan culture they were mocked and ridiculed.

I don’t even wanna get started on the post colonial mindset when middle eastern countries are talked about
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In terms of progress I was specifically talking about the migrant workers, didn’t really want to go into discussions about religion, gender, sexual orientation. Fully agree about those things needing to take time, although I would expect progress to be much quicker for a variety of reasons than in England. Namely there is a whole host of regions that have now set examples to follow and access to information, compared to say the 50s in the UK.

I think in terms of the racism on here, there undoubtably has been previously, I was referring to this thread, which someone previously was asking to be locked because of racism. And of course unconscious bias, of which we likely all have some. I would assume a lot of that is lack of education around the region or topic, rather than intentional racism, so it would be helpful to present facts or corrections though.

@Abdullah7 for example, keeps asking for evidence of human rights violations in Qatar, like it’s difficult to just Google it. We all know the gotcha he’s going to provide is that it wasn’t the state building the stadiums and that laws were put in place. Like somehow that absolves them of blame for the situation when laws weren’t enforced.
 
Abdullah7 said:
What kind of knowledge have you obtained around these subjects to be able to hurl these serious accusations so rapidly ?
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Oh ffs! It's poor form trying to deny what's been reported, or be all "did you witness it yourself?!"
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2022/country-chapters/qatar#bd2d9c
Abuse and exploitation of the country’s large migrant workforce persisted in 2021 despite the introduction of labor reforms, in part because of ineffective implementation and because certain elements of the kafala (sponsorship) system remained in place. Women in Qatar continued to face severe discrimination and violence due to abusive male guardianship policies.
(...)
Other abusive elements of the kafala system remain, namely that a migrant worker’s legal status in Qatar remains tied to a specific employer, where an employer can apply, renew, or cancel a worker’s residency permit, and that “absconding,” or leaving an employer without permission, remains a crime. Workers, especially low-paid laborers and domestic workers, often depend on their employer not just for their jobs, but for housing and food. Passport confiscations, high recruitment fees, and deceptive recruitment practices remain largely unpunished. Workers are banned from joining trade unions or exercising their right to strike. Such impunity and remaining aspects of the kafala system continue to drive abuse, exploitation, and forced labor practices.
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Tyrion said:
  1. Smart Evil - I'd hate them and be less enthusiastic about United.
  2. Chaotic Evil - He's mental but so what?
  3. Pure Evil - I'd find it difficult to keep supporting the club. Force of habit would probably make me but I'd care much less
  4. Blood money - Same as above
  5. Sportswashing emirates - Same as above
  6. American Corporations - I wouldn't care
  7. Chinese Corporations - I'd be suspicious of their governments involvement but otherwise wouldn't care
  8. Capitalists - I'd like a smart owner so it depends on whether they're bleeding the club with debt or not. I'd like an owner like FSG
  9. Asian billionaires - I don't care about their nationality as long as they aren't involved with governments
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Pretty much my feelings.

I don't care about 1 though.
 
I don't think there is a right answer to satisfy the OP. According to him, basically anyone who has money is evil or bad for the club as options 1-9 are all billionaires. Even if the club could be owned by supporters/shareholders, the millionaire/billionaire supporters would gain influence and be in charge. Sorry, but you have to be a capitalist at the very least to buy United, bc United isn't selling to the average member of the Caf who has 20 quid in their pocket. Just 6 billion quid short of the asking price.

According to OP, his interest in United would drop if Musk took over and would prefer the Glazers keep ownership as the Glazers seem to fall to #8 on his list under capitalists. I would disagree that.

I'm for anyone who takes over that has money, will hire intelligent people and will make sure that United is well run on and off the pitch. Added bonus if they reinvest all profits back into the club.

Really, I think this is a useless topic as it was really a way for the OP to criticize people who don't agree with him on the political spectrum. Anyone who puts Musk ahead of Kim Jong-Un is comically laughable.Kim Jong is the man who denies freedom for his nation, has caused millions of North Koreans to die through starvation and executes his own citizens. Clearly he is in a race for worst Tyrant of the 21st century. But according to OP- he's 3rd on the list behind Smart Evil and Chaotic Evil. I didn't realize Musk, who has spent the last 10 years trying to improve the environment with his electric cars and solar panels was Chaotic Evil and worse than Bloodmoney, Sportswashers and Chinese corps. Oh wait-- that's right, he believes in Free Speech, and after he mentioned he believes in Free Speech, the far left Media in the USA and around the world started losing their minds and now Musk is bad. If you are against Free Speech, the problem isn't Musk, it's you. You are evil if you don't believe in Freedom of Speech.

I find it ironic-- a ton of people here hate Musk because he believes in Free speech, yet we are all allowed to freely speak our opinions on this message board. I guess for some-- they only want Free Speech if they agree with your opinion. If they don't agree with you, you are no longer allowed freedom of speech.
 
MTF said:
Oh ffs! It's poor form trying to deny what's been reported, or be all "did you witness it yourself?!"
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2022/country-chapters/qatar#bd2d9c
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What a load of rubbish.

Kafala, neat subject to start with. I once was a student in USA and I had to have I20 tied to my University? I couldn't work or transfer to other institutes without their permission. If my i20 was cancelled I would have the risk of deportation but I don't call it crime like yours. Isn't that the same? what's the whole propose of Visa?

Visa/I20 = Kafala.

now, women. every rule is based on Alquraan which is the islamic legestaltion system.%99 of the women here like it and approve of it. It's our religion and we respect it heavily.Women do too.

This is it? I lay it down as simple as it could be so you can finally get it.
 
Dan_F said:
In terms of progress I was specifically talking about the migrant workers, didn’t really want to go into discussions about religion, gender, sexual orientation. Fully agree about those things needing to take time, although I would expect progress to be much quicker for a variety of reasons than in England. Namely there is a whole host of regions that have now set examples to follow and access to information, compared to say the 50s in the UK.

I think in terms of the racism on here, there undoubtably has been previously, I was referring to this thread, which someone previously was asking to be locked because of racism. And of course unconscious bias, of which we likely all have some. I would assume a lot of that is lack of education around the region or topic, rather than intentional racism, so it would be helpful to present facts or corrections though.

@Abdullah7 for example, keeps asking for evidence of human rights violations in Qatar, like it’s difficult to just Google it. We all know the gotcha he’s going to provide is that it wasn’t the state building the stadiums and that laws were put in place. Like somehow that absolves them of blame for the situation when laws weren’t enforced.
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give me a real case of violation to the human rights. or let's make it simple .. give me a scenario where you portrait what you're breaching . draw me a picture.
 
I really hope they don’t change the stadium name. Or add something infront of it.

the Spotify nou camp for example just sounds shite. Or etihad or emirates.

Just keep it old Trafford. Anything else wouldn’t feel right.
 
ForeverRed1 said:
I really hope they don’t change the stadium name. Or add something infront of it.

the Spotify nou camp for example just sounds shite. Or etihad or emirates.

Just keep it old Trafford. Anything else wouldn’t feel right.
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What? You don’t like the Al Thani - Harrods - Old Trafford stadium?
 
Abdullah7 said:
What a load of rubbish.

Kafala, neat subject to start with. I once was a student in USA and I had to have I20 tied to my University? I couldn't work or transfer to other institutes without their permission. If my i20 was cancelled I would have the risk of deportation but I don't call it crime like yours. Isn't that the same? what's the whole propose of Visa?

Visa/I20 = Kafala.

now, women. every rule is based on Alquraan which is the islamic legestaltion system.%99 of the women here like it and approve of it. It's our religion and we respect it heavily.Women do too.

This is it? I lay it down as simple as it could be so you can finally get it.
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In the US, as in many other countries, an immigrant has recourse to the regular judicial system for any abuses of state or federal labor law that is perpetrated against them, same as a citizen would. That is the main difference.

I'm an immigrant to the US, I've had both study and work visas here. There were always restrictions on what I could do as far as work, but I've never been at risk of abuses like those that are widely reported under kafala systems. Immigrants have successfully sued the US government itself on several occasions.
 
Abdullah7 said:
give me a real case of violation to the human rights. or let's make it simple .. give me a scenario where you portrait what you're breaching . draw me a picture.
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Literally anything within Amnesty’s report on Qatar. You can fill your boots.
 
Abdullah7 said:
What a load of rubbish.

Kafala, neat subject to start with. I once was a student in USA and I had to have I20 tied to my University? I couldn't work or transfer to other institutes without their permission. If my i20 was cancelled I would have the risk of deportation but I don't call it crime like yours. Isn't that the same? what's the whole propose of Visa?

Visa/I20 = Kafala.

now, women. every rule is based on Alquraan which is the islamic legestaltion system.%99 of the women here like it and approve of it. It's our religion and we respect it heavily.Women do too.

This is it? I lay it down as simple as it could be so you can finally get it.
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This is a quote from an article I read today, all seems fair and above board of course

"The latest depressing despatch is a painstaking report by the Josimar website. It relates how World Cup security guards who worked at the tournament’s Stadium 974 last November have received no pay and are being asked to leave Doha."
 
NLunited said:
The supporter‘s protests worked and they are looking to sell the club. Also, they have invested more this summer. Whatever happends, things have improved already.
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They didn't invest anything. It was the clubs money that was used in the summer, or more specifically, they approved taking more debt towards transfers presumably as they knew they were selling so it didn't matter to them.

If the Glazers remain, the debt remains, so we still pay interest payments on that and are at risk of getting fecked as a club due to the size of the debt, and then we also still pay them dividends, and we are still run by idiots who just don't know how to run a football club smartly.
 
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