What is our problem????????

[Murt]

Its not the 451 tactic:
Last season 7 of our 9 losses occusred when we started with a 442 lineup, last night was the same. Ppl complain a lot when we play with a 5 man midfield and claim that 442 will cure everything. I hope that arguement is dead in the water by now.

Its not the defence:
6 home losses last season
Bolton, Chelsea, West Ham, Liverpool, Arsenal & Middlesborough all beat us at home last season. They scored a combined 9 goals against us giving an average of 1.5 goals/ game.
We managed to score one goal (a Veron free kick)against the lot of em, o.17 goals/game which is not enough. We should be able to put an average of 2 goals past those 6.

Its not the personell:
The majority of our players would fit into into any side in the world. Take last nights Barthez, Silvestre, Rio, Bex, Veron, Giggs, Butt, Ruud, Olle. We wont get better individuals than any of em.

In my opinion its the will to win thats gone. I have to agree with everything that Roy Keane says. The majority of our players have become far too comfortable, in the mid 20's, life set up, seen and done it all. Will to win isnt something you can buy or tell yourself to do, it comes naturally. I think the best solution to our problems is to promote youth players. Do what Clough did to Keane and tell him a 2pm that hes starting at Anfield.

 

[Ever hopefull]

Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>Its not the 451 tactic:
Last season 7 of our 9 losses occusred when we started with a 442 lineup, last night was the same. Ppl complain a lot when we play with a 5 man midfield and claim that 442 will cure everything. I hope that arguement is dead in the water by now.

Its not the defence:
6 home losses last season
Bolton, Chelsea, West Ham, Liverpool, Arsenal & Middlesborough all beat us at home last season. They scored a combined 9 goals against us giving an average of 1.5 goals/ game.
We managed to score one goal (a Veron free kick)against the lot of em, o.17 goals/game which is not enough. We should be able to put an average of 2 goals past those 6.

Its not the personell:
The majority of our players would fit into into any side in the world. Take last nights Barthez, Silvestre, Rio, Bex, Veron, Giggs, Butt, Ruud, Olle. We wont get better individuals than any of em.

In my opinion its the will to win thats gone. I have to agree with everything that Roy Keane says. The majority of our players have become far too comfortable, in the mid 20's, life set up, seen and done it all. Will to win isnt something you can buy or tell yourself to do, it comes naturally. I think the best solution to our problems is to promote youth players. Do what Clough did to Keane and tell him a 2pm that hes starting at Anfield.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I generally agree.
The 4-4-2 & 4-5-1 do have blame attached to them but it not the fact that one formation is better than the other it's because Sir Alex needs to decide which formation he is going to play and stick to it. It's being changed to often and the player are struggling to find a routine.

The defence was partailly to blame for some of the losses last season. Chelsea being the obvious one. Conceding 3 goals to them, two of from set pieces the defence has to take the blame.

I think you may have inadvertantly hit the nail on the head when you said its not the personnel.
We wont get better individuals than any of em. Individuals don't win trophies TEAMS do. We are not playing like a team at the moment.

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by Ever hopefull:
<strong>

I generally agree.
The 4-4-2 & 4-5-1 do have blame attached to them but it not the fact that one formation is better than the other it's because Sir Alex needs to decide which formation he is going to play and stick to it. It's being changed to often and the player are struggling to find a routine.

The defence was partailly to blame for some of the losses last season. Chelsea being the obvious one. Conceding 3 goals to them, two of from set pieces the defence has to take the blame.

I think you may have inadvertantly hit the nail on the head when you said its not the personnel.
We wont get better individuals than any of em. Individuals don't win trophies TEAMS do. We are not playing like a team at the moment.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Agreed. There's a subtle relationship between formation and style of play, and cohesion. We no longer play like United. I'm not willing to sacrifice our heritage, for a style of play that gave our worst league position in a decade, even more so when Arsenal are doing so well with a game very similar to the way we used to play.

 

[Private PeeWee]

Totally agree.

IT IS IN THEIR HEADS.

They have a serious problem: every team in the league knows that United isn't united at all. Everybody can win against them if you just FIGHT harder for it. And as we have seen for a year or more now; our lads don't want a fight at all.

They still believe that individual skills will save the day.

I also suspect that there is something wrong in the team-spirit in an enviromental way. I don't really think they have a good enough enviroment these days. They aren't bleeding for the job anymore.

And if the latter remark is true, then we have only seen the beginning of what is to become.

You just don't turn around something like that in an instant. Everyone who's been through that KNOWS these things take a HECK of lot of time to heal and ressurect. If it succeeds at all...

 

[roxyfella]

I got the answer..................WE AINT GOOD ENOUGH. But what the feck, just watching my beloved Man United is good enough for me. <img src="graemlins/keano.gif" border="0" alt="[Keano]" />

 

[Rams]

I agree that they are lacking in confidence but you cant blame them for lack of trying yesterday!

 

[Gazza]

Top posts from Murt and Ever Hopefull.

 

[ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC]

It used to be that when our skill didnt save us, our spirit and heart would. Not the case anymore. Now we depend on luck (penalties) or skill, both of which are inconsistant.

Spirit is 50% of a winning team, if not more. Without it your nothing.

As long as u have spirit, even with no skill you're gonna be had to beat.

Our lack of options is frightening. Its our first 11 or no one at all. We cant throw someoe on to save us. Our team is in disarray and needs major surgery IMO.

 

[curt]

Because everyone suddenly becomes Real Madrid for the day when they play us. As Sir Alec once said it's cheating the manager.

 

[Gazza]

IMO it's all about the wings. Once Ferguson drives in to the minds of Beckham and Giggs that they are more important on the flanks, and not in the middle where they are no help at all and only get in the way, we should be ok. Beckham and Giggs have started to only do what they want to do, not what they’re told. Beckham’s job is get crosses in to the box, and Ryan’s is to cause havoc, and they have simply not being doing that for 12-18 months. Very frustrating. I wouldn’t be at all opposed to dropping Giggs and Beckham for Richardson, Timm etc.

 

[Ever hopefull]

Originally posted by curt:
<strong>Because everyone suddenly becomes Real Madrid for the day when they play us. As Sir Alec once said it's cheating the manager.</strong><hr></blockquote>

of course everyone raises their game when they play us. If they didn't i'd start to worry, it would mean that we really were in trouble. But the fact still remains that our players should be able to motivate themselves for any game. They are professionals and are in a very privelidged position

 

[mathiaslg]

Originally posted by Gazza:
<strong>IMO it's all about the wings. Once Ferguson drives in to the minds of Beckham and Giggs that they are more important on the flanks, and not in the middle where they are no help at all and only get in the way, we should be ok. Beckham and Giggs have started to only do what they want to do, not what they’re told. Beckham’s job is get crosses in to the box, and Ryan’s is to cause havoc, and they have simply not being doing that for 12-18 months. Very frustrating. I wouldn’t be at all opposed to dropping Giggs and Beckham for Richardson, Timm etc.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I totally agree, and have been speaking about this for a long time now. Giggs and Beckham have not only been giving the CM's too little space, limit the threat from the flanks, but also leave the fullbacks isolated as well.

 

[jmanu]

Originally posted by Gazza:
[QB]IMO it's all about the wings. Once Ferguson drives in to the minds of Beckham and Giggs that they are more important on the flanks, and not in the middle where they are no help at all and only get in the way, we should be ok.

How do you know that it wasnt a tactical plan on Ferguson's part to have 4/5 midfielders interchanging positions during a game? In theory it sounds like an excellent plan - Veron/Scholes filling in for Becks/Giggs when the come infield - which makes it very difficult to track players.

 

[Gazza]

Originally posted by jmanu:
<strong>How do you know that it wasnt a tactical plan on Ferguson's part to have 4/5 midfielders interchanging positions during a game? In theory it sounds like an excellent plan - Veron/Scholes filling in for Becks/Giggs when the come infield - which makes it very difficult to track players.</strong><hr></blockquote>If it was then it wasnt very well orchestrated. It materializes in to two CM players and two wide players seemingly getting in each other’s way more than anything. The original centre-midfielders don’t move on to the flanks and we don’t make any headway. This actually makes it frustratingly straightforward for the opposition to track, and thus springs suggestions that we have been playing too narrow, something I agree with.

 

[uranushk1]

Originally posted by Gazza:
<strong>IMO it's all about the wings. Once Ferguson drives in to the minds of Beckham and Giggs that they are more important on the flanks, and not in the middle where they are no help at all and only get in the way, we should be ok. Beckham and Giggs have started to only do what they want to do, not what they’re told. Beckham’s job is get crosses in to the box, and Ryan’s is to cause havoc, and they have simply not being doing that for 12-18 months. Very frustrating. I wouldn’t be at all opposed to dropping Giggs and Beckham for Richardson, Timm etc.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Agree about Giggs, but I think Beckham played well in general and it's unfair to single out them to blame, especially I don't think Veron, Ruud or Scholes played any better than the two you mentioned. I think Beckham is no longer the same "cross machine" as in the 90's and now you can no longer tell him to stay on the right and wait for the ball. Murt talked about give young players a chance, so may be we can really think about moving Beckham into centre and give Chadwick, Forlan or even Timms a chance on the right.

 

[Gazza]

Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>

Agree about Giggs, but I think Beckham played well in general and it's unfair to single out them to blame, especially I don't think Veron, Ruud or Scholes played any better than the two you mentioned. I think Beckham is no longer the same "cross machine" as in the 90's and now you can no longer tell him to stay on the right and wait for the ball. Murt talked about give young players a chance, so may be we can really think about moving Beckham into centre and give Chadwick, Forlan or even Timms a chance on the right.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Why ? We all know he is an exeptional RM as opposed to a decent CM. SAF should drum in to him what his purpose is, making things happen down the wings. With Beckham in the centre and Forlan on the right, our team would look far weaker than a team of Becks on the right and Scholes / Butt/ Veron in the middle.

 

[uranushk1]

Originally posted by Gazza:
<strong>

Why ? We all know he is an exeptional RM as opposed to a decent CM. SAF should drum in to him what his purpose is, making things happen down the wings. With Beckham in the centre and Forlan on the right, our team would look far weaker than a team of Becks on the right and Scholes / Butt/ Veron in the middle.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You have your point, but I just think that Beckham has already changed his game during these few years and it may be difficult to ask him to change back. Besides, I also hope that some new faces (such as Luke, Forlan, etc...) may add something new and unpredictable into the team.

 

[Gazza]

Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>

You have your point, but I just think that Beckham has already changed his game during these few years and it may be difficult to ask him to change back. Besides, I also hope that some new faces (such as Luke, Forlan, etc...) may add something new and unpredictable into the team.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Neither Chadwick nor Forlan have crossing ability half as good as Beckham's, so why should we waste his talent in the middle when it is so obvious what we lack is width ? If he changed from a winger to a more central player, he should be able to change back.

 

[pete_8]

Originally posted by Gazza:
<strong>
Neither Chadwick nor Forlan have crossing ability half as good as Beckham's, so why should we waste his talent in the middle when it is so obvious what we lack is width ? If he changed from a winger to a more central player, he should be able to change back.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think playing Beckham in the middle is a good option and certainly not a waste of his talent admittedly his crossing ability is second to none but I feel his penetrative passing would be equally affective in the middle

 

[Gazza]

Veron's passing is just as good, and we don't have to sacrifice Beckham's unrivalved quality on the wing. This arguement is a no-brainer. Anyone who would rather see a Midfield of

Chadwick/Forlan Beckham Keane Giggs

as opposed to

Beckham Scholes/Butt/Veron Keane Giggs

is out of their mind. Forlan and Chadwick may provide adequate cover on either wing in the future, but the factors going against Beckham playing in the center far outnumber the advantages.

 

[pete_8]

Originally posted by Gazza:
<strong>Veron's passing is just as good, and we don't have to sacrifice Beckham's unrivalved quality on the wing. This arguement is a no-brainer. Anyone who would rather see a Midfield of

Chadwick/Forlan Beckham Keane Giggs

as opposed to

Beckham Scholes/Butt/Veron Keane Giggs

is out of their mind. Forlan and Chadwick may provide adequate cover on either wing in the future, but the factors going against Beckham playing in the center far outnumber the advantages.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Agreed but I think with better wide players Beckham could excel in the middle

 

[Waz]

makes you wonder whats being said in the newcastle forum.

 

[mu11]

Considering our attack alone, it is fair to say our wingers are not as effective as they used to be. But that could possibly be a result of our center midfield/foward's inability to create in the middle.

Even Becks/Giggs are able to put in crosses as usual, it won't be as effective when the defenders are well composed and prepared for it. I feel that we badly miss the contributions of Yorke/Scholes/Cole/Sheri in the middle. They were able to make troubles in the middle of the defense in different ways and free up space on the flanks which gave our wingers much more time and options.

Overall I think we couldn't isolate our problem down to just one aspect and it would be unfair to put the blame on any single player. The whole team's chemistry is just not as good as it used to be (especially during attack). There could be too many reasons. Some of our key players are gone (and some are dropping in form) but there is no replacement. Maybe the constant switching of formations confuses the players. Maybe Veron was a mistake. Maybe our opponents are just getting better.

At the end of the day it's down to the manager to figure it out. All the players are supposed to play according to the manager's plan. With the current situation (Keane/Scholes out and tranfer window closed) I think we really need to think about alternatives. Exploiting more of our youth squad, moving Beckham inside are all valid options to me.

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by roxyfella:
<strong>I got the answer..................WE AINT GOOD ENOUGH. But what the feck, just watching my beloved Man United is good enough for me. <img src="graemlins/keano.gif" border="0" alt="[Keano]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>


That's true. But it does help if they play to their strengths so we get to see a decent game. Watching Giggs and Ole more or less swap places on Wednesday was very frustrating.

 

[Scouse Beater]

Remember Becks in the 98/99 treble winning season. That was him at his best. Yorkie and Cole got most of their goals because of amazing right wing crosses by becks. (Inter Milan at Old Trafford springs immediatly to mind). He just simply isnt doing this or maybe we just dont have Yorkie to put them away any more.

 

[michael owen's mum]

Originally posted by Scouse Beater:
<strong>Remember Becks in the 98/99 treble winning season. That was him at his best. Yorkie and Cole got most of their goals because of amazing right wing crosses by becks. (Inter Milan at Old Trafford springs immediatly to mind). He just simply isnt doing this or maybe we just dont have Yorkie to put them away any more.</strong><hr></blockquote>


2 things :

1. beckham is obsessed by this image of himself as a midfield play-maker, which he is not. it makes him come looking for the ball more and drift infield more when he was far, far more effective playing further up the right flank, where his crosses come whipped right into the danger area between 'keeper and centre-backs. he's playing far too deep.

2. the 4-5-1 experiment fecked you up. in the 4-4-2 all the players knew where giggs, beckham, cole and yorke would be if they wanted to pass to them. now no-one knows quite where the hell their team-mates are going to pop up next.


you should go back to basics, keep your 2 wide midfielders wide and keep your 2 strikers playing on the last defender. . .

 

[uranushk1]

Originally posted by Gazza:
<strong>Veron's passing is just as good, </strong><hr></blockquote>

I know you would not agree, but I truly believe that the purchase of Veron is the biggest mistake Fergie made in transfer in recent years (even bigger than Taibi or Bosnich).

 

[2Bullish]

2 things :

1. beckham is obsessed by this image of himself as a midfield play-maker, which he is not. it makes him come looking for the ball more and drift infield more when he was far, far more effective playing further up the right flank, where his crosses come whipped right into the danger area between 'keeper and centre-backs. he's playing far too deep.

2. the 4-5-1 experiment fecked you up. in the 4-4-2 all the players knew where giggs, beckham, cole and yorke would be if they wanted to pass to them. now no-one knows quite where the hell their team-mates are going to pop up next.


you should go back to basics, keep your 2 wide midfielders wide and keep your 2 strikers playing on the last defender. . .
<hr></blockquote>

I agree, as was all to evident against Bolton.

 

[Davo]

Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>

I know you would not agree, but I truly believe that the purchase of Veron is the biggest mistake Fergie made in transfer in recent years (even bigger than Taibi or Bosnich).</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree, not only in that it hasn't worked..but also inthe fact that you elected to "strengthen" your midfield when the cash would have been far better spent in other areas...

 

[uranushk1]

Originally posted by Scouse Beater:
<strong>Remember Becks in the 98/99 treble winning season. That was him at his best. Yorkie and Cole got most of their goals because of amazing right wing crosses by becks. (Inter Milan at Old Trafford springs immediatly to mind). He just simply isnt doing this or maybe we just dont have Yorkie to put them away any more.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I must disagree. The Beckham now is better as a player than in 98-99. He can even shoot and score with his left foot now. He can cross whenever he want in 98-99 because other teams are not too familar with him yet, but put a fast and average LB there to stick with Becks, he can easily mark him out because he lack pace and dribbling skill. Therefore Becks begin to move more freely in the field is nearly a must for him, otherwise every team can easily freeze him out in the far right.

 

[uranushk1]

Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>

I agree, not only in that it hasn't worked..but also inthe fact that you elected to "strengthen" your midfield when the cash would have been far better spent in other areas...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, why you suddenly pop up when I'm discussing with someone else... <img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" />

But what you said is just too true. Now people are saying we need Duff, Escude, etc.. If we haven't spent 28m on Veron, that kind of money should already be enough for BOTH Duff and Escude, and even more.

 

[Scouse Beater]

Never thought id say it but I miss Yorke and Cole.

 

[Lion]

Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>

I know you would not agree, but I truly believe that the purchase of Veron is the biggest mistake Fergie made in transfer in recent years (even bigger than Taibi or Bosnich).</strong><hr></blockquote>

Because of that kind of amount, he is.

 

[reelworld]

Beckham don't stayed on the right because he would be easily nullified.
He didn't have that acceleration to beat defenders, and he needs space to cross the ball.
All the defenders have to do is close that space and Becks would be inefficient.
He have to move to the middle (or sometime moving up the left), so he can get the ball and pass it around.
Giggs in the other hand is worrying, he have all the attributes, the pace and the skill the past his men, but he rarely do so right now.
I believe that, if he could regain the form that made him one of the most respected left winger in the world, we would be back in bussiness

 

[jmanu]

I think Fergie had to accomodate Giggs and Becks in the middle as it is their natural evolution as players. How much longer can Fergie tell Giggs and Beckham to merely stay on the wing when he feels that they can contribute much more thru the middle.The best example is with England when Gerard/Beckham are playing together. It's quite obvious that their interchange play works very well. Unfortunately this has not been the case with Veron. In theory it made perfect sense previously - imagine Giggs beating players through the middle - like Arsenal and imagine Becks spraying his accurate long and short range passes to the strikers from the middle- unfortunately the players have not been able to adapt well to the system ....yet. IMO Fergie wants to maximize these players potential to be better footballing individuals which at the moment seems to be having a negative impact on the team.

 

[Lion]

Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>

Well, why you suddenly pop up when I'm discussing with someone else... <img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" />

But what you said is just too true. Now people are saying we need Duff, Escude, etc.. If we haven't spent 28m on Veron, that kind of money should already be enough for BOTH Duff and Escude, and even more.</strong><hr></blockquote>

At that time, who is Duff? I'm worry with our scouts. What are they doing anyway?

 

[uranushk1]

Originally posted by Lion:
<strong>

At that time, who is Duff? I'm worry with our scouts. What are they doing anyway?</strong><hr></blockquote>

They have all gone to South America to search for the next Forlan <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

 

[jmanu]

Originally posted by Lion:
<strong>

At that time, who is Duff? I'm worry with our scouts. What are they doing anyway?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think lady luck has a lot to do with finding the right player. I'm sure everyone else was talking Fergie up as the top bargain hunter when we got Ole,Schmikes,Eric, Bruce, etc. Players like Henry/Viera were on the bench in Italy and now look at them. On the otherside we have Veron who was world class in Italy and now ....? Another example is Marcorone and Grabi - both were top scorers in Serie B - one made it and the other didnt. It's almost impossible to see how a transfer is going to work out unless his name is Rio - who is excellent although overpriced

 

[MancFanFromManc]

Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>Its not the 451 tactic:
Last season 7 of our 9 losses occusred when we started with a 442 lineup, last night was the same. Ppl complain a lot when we play with a 5 man midfield and claim that 442 will cure everything. I hope that arguement is dead in the water by now.

Its not the defence:
6 home losses last season
Bolton, Chelsea, West Ham, Liverpool, Arsenal & Middlesborough all beat us at home last season. They scored a combined 9 goals against us giving an average of 1.5 goals/ game.
We managed to score one goal (a Veron free kick)against the lot of em, o.17 goals/game which is not enough. We should be able to put an average of 2 goals past those 6.

Its not the personell:
The majority of our players would fit into into any side in the world. Take last nights Barthez, Silvestre, Rio, Bex, Veron, Giggs, Butt, Ruud, Olle. We wont get better individuals than any of em.

In my opinion its the will to win thats gone. I have to agree with everything that Roy Keane says. The majority of our players have become far too comfortable, in the mid 20's, life set up, seen and done it all. Will to win isnt something you can buy or tell yourself to do, it comes naturally. I think the best solution to our problems is to promote youth players. Do what Clough did to Keane and tell him a 2pm that hes starting at Anfield.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Sorry I'm a bit slow on the uptake today, been out and about. Sun therapy for the Bolton result


I agree with all Murt's "what it isnt" list, but I dont agree that the will to wins gone.

I suspect there are a few divides in the camp. Probably formed during last seasons struggles. When dips in form dont make sense, its usually got something to do something that happens behind closed doors.

The team is working (IMO) as hard as ever to put things right, but it just isnt happening.

Something needs to happen to kick start our season. Something to a) get confidence up and b) to improve the morale

I'd love it to happen against Leeds, but (despite all my normal optimism) I'm worried that it'll get worse before it gets better.

Somebody please cheer me up. My nails are in for some grief tomorrow

Come on the boys. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE perform tomorrow.

 

[Due South]

I agree with several posts about Giggs and to a certain extent about Becks.

Giggs just doesnt do what he used to do. Whether this is due lack of form, lack of pace nowadays, fear of injury, lack of heart or that defences have figured him out....I DONT know but could the old giggsy step forward pleazzzz.

Becks biggest problem is that he nowadays stops the ball before making crosses. This allows defences to recover. In the treble year he made crosses while on the run...hence more swerve and pace on the ball....His body angle is also a lot different when he passes at pace than from slow ball positions.

I have no problem with becks taking CM positions but for him to be effective the strikers or Giggsy has to have more movement to their game. They need to create the space that he can pass to.

I find RVN sticks to much to defenders. He needs to wander a little more around the ball park, lose defenders....

I also think Giggsy or Becks crosses are only has effective as the strikers who read them...Cole , Yorkie and Sheringham were good at this. Ole has it but RVN is a different type of striker.
The truth is we are short of one typical British striker.....sticks the foot or head in.