What exactly changed in Arnold, Murtough and Ten Hag era?

Andycoleno9

matchday malcontent
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During Ed era we were spending big money on wrong players with giving them huge contracts. Also our transfer policy was "give manager what he wants". It was labelled as wrong approach and last 2 years i keep reading how we have changed our approach and how we are doing things differently.
I struggle to see those changes.

All our signings are strictly on manager's requests (by name), we are still hugely overpaying players (instead walking away), we still give them huge contracts (Case is on 350k, Mount 250k, Antony is on 200k, Eriksen is on 150k) and we still buy players and then play them out of position (instead buying player for that exact position).
Also, we are apparently ruthless now but we still don't push deadwood out of club (Ronaldo doesn't count because he was the one who pushed himself out with interview).
Our scouting network is also "upgraded" but we didn't bought any player who could be labelled as "hidden gem". Hojlund is the only one young player who we bought but he was hardly an unknown player.

So, what exactly changed?
 
Takes time for big changes to show. Can't tell too much in short term, especially as short term we have been scrambling to plug holes.

The way the De Gea and Greenwood situations have been dealt with though are on them purely.
 
£200/250K for senior first team regulars is fine.

Remember, Woodward and Judge gave DDG £350K, Sanchez £500K, Ronaldo £500K, Pogba £350K, Varane £350K, Sancho £350K...and some of those were 4/5 years ago now.

So I think there has been a rethink on the wage structure. Casemiro at £350K per week is about where the top limit should be - I've no problem with that personally.
 
On the subject of transfers, again, I think we are seeing signs of change. Problem is, you can't undo a decade of negligence in 18-months. You could argue we'd actually fallen behind even before SAF left.

The numbers of players that have left in the last 12-months is a good change in the right direction and I think all of signings have added something to the team to varying degrees.

On tactics, some of these lads have never had a "modern coach". As good a footballer as Luke Shaw is, for example, he can't just learn an entirely new way of playing in a few months. It needs to become muscle memory, and that's going to take a long time unfortunately.

If you look at Arsenal under Edu and Arteta, it actually had to get much worse before it got better...and I think that will be the case again here.
 
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Time can't be used as an excuse because other clubs have demonstrated that with the right individuals in the right places a clubs fortunes by way of business can change almost immediately.

There's a very odd situation at United where the structure on paper has changed, all the right pieces in the right places but the influences hasn't. Manager is running the show once again and I cannot fault the manager for that, it's a reflection of inept superiors who reflect hamsters on a wheel running, running and running while heading in no direction with no plan, which is unfortunately a proverbial way of defining the leadership at the club.

Being in business I was always mentored to redefine failure with the word feedback. How is it that despite 10 years of lackluster development due to the operational capacity of the club, that no one has taken this information and used it to be advantageous moving forward. It points to one reason and it's that the wrong people are being employed for the positions they presently occupy.

The team is being put together not built, something I have reiterated all summer because there's no philosophy in place from the club which means every transfer window United head into is based on subjective sentiment not an objective overview. There is no synergy between age, profile, long term proportional value it's a scattergun approach exemplifying no strategy.
 
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I don't understand what the improvement is. Casemiro and Antony are as Woodward-esque as any signing can be. Not because they aren't good players but because we waited to create a panic situation that had us paying 150% of what they could have cost. After fans spent all of that summer smugly ridiculing how the old hierarchy would be in for Dybala like fish to shiny objects. The contradiction was just funny.

Then spending all summer waiting for FDJ was the worst. Any legal professional or informed exec would know from a mile away that contract situations that complex don't resolve themselves quickly. Even a specialised tribunal would need more than a couple months to sort out all the rights and liabilities of a contract situation that messed up.

edit On a side note, Although it would have set a nasty precedent maybe we should have just paid off Barca's debt to FDJ if we were just going to misspend those funds elsewhere.
 
Lentwood said:
On the subject of transfers, again, I think we are seeing signs of change. Problem is, you can't undo a decade of negligence in 18-months. You could argue we'd actually fallen behind even before SAF left.

The numbers of players that have left in the last 12-months is a good change in the right direction and I think all of signings have added something to the team to varying degrees.

On tactics, some of these lads have never had a "modern coach". As good a footballer as Luke Shaw is, for example, he can't just learn an entirely new way of playing in a few months. It needs to become muscle memory, and that's going to take a long time unfortunately.

If you look at Arsenal under Edu and Arteta, it actually had to get much worse before it got better...and I think that will be the case again here.
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Yes agree with this. We are still held to ransom on some transfers though as the other clubs expect us to collapse and pay over the odds. We slipped back with Antony, but slightly improved this window so far. If we could get TH to mimic Arteta era we would dramatically improve team cohesion and look a proper title challenger again. City with their wealth and best manager will still be a big thorn in the side, but Arsenal under Arteta have come from nowhere to main challengers.
 
It was obvious from day one nothing would change. Woodward chose to leave, he wasn’t forced out. The club weren’t looking for change or shifting their ambition and business plan. Woodward was replaced with his right hand man and the guy described as his fixer. It was going to be evolution at best not revolution.

Nothing will change with these owners, in Murtough and Arnold they appointed people who knew that, were happy to work within that and will never complain or rock the boat.
 
bosnian_red said:
Takes time for big changes to show. Can't tell too much in short term, especially as short term we have been scrambling to plug holes.

The way the De Gea and Greenwood situations have been dealt with though are on them purely.
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sorry I don’t buy it - slow change shouldn’t equal spunking disproportionate amounts of our allegedly limited transfer funds on the likes of Mount and Antony, and handing over huge contracts that basically paints a scarlet letter on these players if we ever want to move them on. Nor does it mean that you turn down generous offers for the likes of Lingard and McTominay or let a player like Paul Pogba run down his contract.
 
Wage structure seems to be addressed in some capacity.
Some of Erik's signings could be turning good as in regular starters at the expected level over many seasons. Martinez, Onana are both promising. Considering how dire MU record with big transfers is, it may be a marginal improvement.
Recruitment seems to target the correct positions, at least.
Some of the deadwood has been moved. Not as much as wanted but long due nonetheless.

That doesn't detract from your general point : Is there progress, structurally ? I don't know.
 
bosnian_red said:
Takes time for big changes to show. Can't tell too much in short term, especially as short term we have been scrambling to plug holes.

The way the De Gea and Greenwood situations have been dealt with though are on them purely.
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2 years is not short term.
 
jem said:
sorry I don’t buy it - slow change shouldn’t equal spunking disproportionate amounts of our allegedly limited transfer funds on the likes of Mount and Antony, and handing over huge contracts that basically paints a scarlet letter on these players if we ever want to move them on. Nor does it mean that you turn down generous offers for the likes of Lingard and McTominay or let a player like Paul Pogba run down his contract.
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We haven't handed out "huge" contracts though. No issue with £200-£250K for players who will be regular first team starters. That's about par now. Casemiro on £350K should be the limit for the now.
 
Lentwood said:
We haven't handed out "huge" contracts though. No issue with £200-£250K for players who will be regular first team starters. That's about par now. Casemiro on £350K should be the limit for the now.
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Mount I can somewhat understand (although I wouldn’t have gone for him in the first place), but handing such a contract to Antony? How does his contract compare to those given to Luis Diaz or Cody Gakpo? What about Gabriel Jesus or Julian Alvarez? Alexander Isak? I genuinely don’t know the answer to this, but would be curious to know.
 
I don’t know how many times it has to be said but nothing will truly change until we get rid of these owners. It doesn’t matter what manager or players you bring in, at the end of the day it’s still the same incompetent regime calling the shots and putting people in positions of power that either aren’t up to the job or aren’t being allowed to do their job properly because the final say always comes from the Glazers.
 
Lentwood said:
Of course is it for an organisation this size. 10 years+ of mismanagement to undo.
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Newcastle have managed it, and that’s by bringing in people new to the club who would in theory have needed more time to settle. We appointed from within and nothing of any significance has changed, which was probably the whole point of giving them these roles.
 
Redcafe became much more moany and dramatic.
 
People thought EtH might be successful in spite of all the inept pricks in positions above him, but it’s absolutely clear that’s not going to be the case.
 
jem said:
Mount I can somewhat understand (although I wouldn’t have gone for him in the first place), but handing such a contract to Antony? How does his contract compare to those given to Luis Diaz or Cody Gakpo? What about Gabriel Jesus or Julian Alvarez? Alexander Isak? I genuinely don’t know the answer to this, but would be curious to know.
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With exception of Jesus I’d be amazed if Anthony doesn’t earn considerably more than all the other players you mentioned.
 
jem said:
sorry I don’t buy it - slow change shouldn’t equal spunking disproportionate amounts of our allegedly limited transfer funds on the likes of Mount and Antony, and handing over huge contracts that basically paints a scarlet letter on these players if we ever want to move them on. Nor does it mean that you turn down generous offers for the likes of Lingard and McTominay or let a player like Paul Pogba run down his contract.
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What did you want to do with Pogba? When did Arnold and Murtaugh actually take over? Woodward was pretty much in charge of those calls. I don't see the relevance in taking things that Woodward did to what Murtaugh and Arnold are doing.

We don't know what the offer terms were for McTominay. It's pretty fair to have a price and not want to sell cheap.

I thought we did pretty well with fees this summer, Onana and Mount were fair prices (bit high on Mount, but fine, whether he's the right type of player is different argument). Hojlund we spent what we needed to to get him simply, as we are desperate at CF. If he clicks as we want then it doesn't matter. But yeah there is always space to improve and we always have do deal with added tax, but I'm not saying it's perfect. Just that it takes time to show true change, and better decisions to start with will still go a long way (which I think we have made). The biggest criticisms I'd have would be the Greenwood situation how it's been dealt with and de Geas contract situation. But we'll see long term, if they even get long term.
 
Toshey said:
Redcafe became much more moany and dramatic.
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Instead spending your limited posts on giving your opinion about how things did change on better and that there is nothing to "moan" about (if you think so), you spent your post on that "dig". Good job.
 
bosnian_red said:
What did you want to do with Pogba? When did Arnold and Murtaugh actually take over? Woodward was pretty much in charge of those calls. I don't see the relevance in taking things that Woodward did to what Murtaugh and Arnold are doing.

We don't know what the offer terms were for McTominay. It's pretty fair to have a price and not want to sell cheap.

I thought we did pretty well with fees this summer, Onana and Mount were fair prices (bit high on Mount, but fine, whether he's the right type of player is different argument). Hojlund we spent what we needed to to get him simply, as we are desperate at CF. If he clicks as we want then it doesn't matter. But yeah there is always space to improve and we always have do deal with added tax, but I'm not saying it's perfect. Just that it takes time to show true change, and better decisions to start with will still go a long way (which I think we have made). The biggest criticisms I'd have would be the Greenwood situation how it's been dealt with and de Geas contract situation. But we'll see long term, if they even get long term.
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Well given that Rangnick was Murtough’s call, I think it’s fair to say JM had a fair amount of power going into Ole’s last season; therefore, I’d say he shoulders some of the blame for not moving the likes of Pogba, and especially Lingard, on.
 
jem said:
Well given that Rangnick was Murtough’s call, I think it’s fair to say JM had a fair amount of power going into Ole’s last season; therefore, I’d say he shoulders some of the blame for not moving the likes of Pogba, and especially Lingard, on.
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By the time Murtaugh took over, Pogba and Lingard were already well into their last season's. Not sure if we had the chance to actually sell Lingard, but both it seemed we're leaving for frees so that's a weird complaint IMO.
 
bosnian_red said:
By the time Murtaugh took over, Pogba and Lingard were already well into their last season's. Not sure if we had the chance to actually sell Lingard, but both it seemed we're leaving for frees so that's a weird complaint IMO.
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If I remember correctly, we did have a chance to sell Lingard to Newcastle, but didn't want to sell to a rival. Idiotic decision. As well, Murtough was announced in March 2021 (yes I just googled it as my memory isn't great.) If that's the case, then he should have had a major say in decision by the time the 2021-22 season kicked off. If that wasn't the case, then it's just another case of this team not getting its shit together in a timely fashion.
 
jem said:
If I remember correctly, we did have a chance to sell Lingard to Newcastle, but didn't want to sell to a rival. Idiotic decision.
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With Lingard we missed sales because we asked too much money and because manager said that he wants depth.
Same as with McT this summer.

Look at Chelsea's and City's sales; if offer is good and player is not key player, they sell.
 
Why would anything change? Arnold and Murtough have been in the club for the last decade throughout all the mismanagement and failures. The latter's first decision was the wrong call which set the tone for his tenure.

Ten Hag's biggest blemish before coming to United was when he did his own recruitment. The first thing Murtough did is letting him pick his own targets and making him basically do the DoF job. It doesn't seem he ever questions him either because they never walk away from targets when the fees start to get too high.
 
Andycoleno9 said:
Instead spending your limited posts on giving your opinion about how things did change on better and that there is nothing to "moan" about (if you think so), you spent your post on that "dig". Good job.
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It's a valid dig.

I watched United - Tottenham and thought we were pretty good. Missed a lot of chances, bad finishing and frustrating performances by Bruno, Garnacho and Rashford.
Thought we didn't get two clear penalties- handball in first half and clear foul on Pellestri in second half.
Unlucky with Antony hitting the post and unreal save forced by Casemiro. Bruno missing sitter, Rashford with lame finishing.

Both Tottenham goals were dodgy as feck.

Frustrating defeat but hardly a deserved one.

Then I opened redcafe and all I could find is that our players are the worst in the league, we are the worst team in the world, everyone is a flop, ETH will be sacked etc.

I feel like this place is drowning in negativity and many people refuse to support the team or even to find positives.

We started slow but there is a good season ahead.
 
Why would things change when the paying consumers (the fans) don't want things to change?

As soon as a new manager comes in, the same old hags out and start harping the same tune along the the lines of :

"Back the manager"

"He needs his own players"

"He needs players he can trust"

The usual shit. If there's even a hint of the club not going along with the managers wishes, they throw their dummies out the pram and make the club a toxic environment.
 
Nothing so far. We looked pretty good under ten Hag for maybe six months last season, but we also had periods of several months where we looked good under Mourinho, Ole, and probably even LVG too. So until we start performing well for whole seasons nothing has changed IMO.

Serious cracks in ten Hag's armour are beginning to show with very questionable expensive signings, incoherent play, lack of away wins, and now even deluded comments to the media.
 
What’s incredible is that OP actually thinks the damage caused by Woodward could be corrected in such a short amount of time. You cannot sell players for much of a profit when they’re average and on premium contracts. To think 2 years would be enough for a complete turn around is naive and shortsighted. Firm judgments being made about our current window when we’re two games into the season is also completely off the mark. What we’ve seen under Murtough and ten Hag is that we’re more decisive with our targets and move on them quicker than we ever did under Woodward who took a complete scatter gun approach and was enamoured by big names. We’ve also seen the end of offering contracts to players to preserve value. It was a disastrous policy, which has also contributed to our inability to maximize our transfer budget.

There has been a lot of progress made by ten Hag and you could use Liverpool and most recently Arsenal as the template on how things can be turned around if you give it time. Those expecting a title charge this season were bound to be disappointed. Top 4, improved points, a good run in Europe and another domestic trophy is more than acceptable and a sign things are turning around under ten Hag and Murtough.

To those who have leaped to the conclusion that there has been no progress, what would you expect the club to do with deadwood players in VDB, Martial, Maguire and McT who are paid well and no one wants? We are handcuffed to these players of a different era unless you want to sell at a ridiculously low fee or pay them off, which many of you will blast Murtough for as well. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Judge the club in another 2 to 3 years where we can see the impact of Murtough and ten Hag not in year 2 of the rebuild.
 
Skills said:
Why would things change when the paying consumers (the fans) don't want things to change?

As soon as a new manager comes in, the same old hags out and start harping the same tune along the the lines of :

"Back the manager"

"He needs his own players"

"He needs players he can trust"

The usual shit. If there's even a hint of the club not going along with the managers wishes, they throw their dummies out the pram and make the club a toxic environment.
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Absolutely. There's a delusion among a large part of the fanbase that if we give a manager total control, a blank check, and several years, they'll eventually turn into the next Ferguson / Busby.
 
Giggsy13 said:
What’s incredible is that OP actually thinks the damage caused by Woodward could be corrected in such a short amount of time. You cannot sell players for much of a profit when they’re average and on premium contracts. To think 2 years would be enough for a complete turn around is naive and shortsighted. Firm judgments being made about our current window when we’re two games into the season is also completely off the mark. What we’ve seen under Murtough and ten Hag is that we’re more decisive with our targets and move on them quicker than we ever did under Woodward who took a complete scatter gun approach and was enamoured by big names. We’ve also seen the end of offering contracts to players to preserve value. It was a disastrous policy, which has also contributed to our inability to maximize our transfer budget.

There has been a lot of progress made by ten Hag and you could use Liverpool and most recently Arsenal as the template on how things can be turned around if you give it time. Those expecting a title charge this season were bound to be disappointed. Top 4, improved points, a good run in Europe and another domestic trophy is more than acceptable and a sign things are turning around under ten Hag and Murtough.

To those who have leaped to the conclusion that there has been no progress, what would you expect the club to do with deadwood players in VDB, Martial, Maguire and McT who are paid well and no one wants? We are handcuffed to these players of a different era unless you want to sell at a ridiculously low fee or pay them off, which many of you will blast Murtough for as well. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Judge the club in another 2 to 3 years where we can see the impact of Murtough and ten Hag not in year 2 of the rebuild.
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Not buy Antony, maybe, especially not for that large a % of transfer budget. Maybe buy midfielders capable of meeting physical and technical demands of the league, especially given profile of current midfield; other sides seem to manage it, whether it's free transfers or buying from relegated sides, so not just giving Brighton 'all the money'. No evidence that ETH's transfer judgement is anything but patchy, nor that any structure in place to mitigate (presuming that Murtough even has any kind of footballing judgement to offer when it comes to profiles of players worth acquiring). There are lots of variants on coach/SD responsibility delegation, as well as lots of SDs who are gettable and with records in managing recruitment teams to bring young talent through which matches with their league. We're one of the worst set ups in Europe in relation to budget (available for players and for spending on scouting/recruitment), maybe pound for pound close to the worst.
 
Greck said:
I don't understand what the improvement is. Casemiro and Antony are as Woodward-esque as any signing can be. Not because they aren't good players but because we waited to create a panic situation that had us paying 150% of what they could have cost. After fans spent all of that summer smugly ridiculing how the old hierarchy would be in for Dybala like fish to shiny objects. The contradiction was just funny.

Then spending all summer waiting for FDJ was the worst. Any legal professional or informed exec would know from a mile away that contract situations that complex don't resolve themselves quickly. Even a specialised tribunal would need more than a couple months to sort out all the rights and liabilities of a contract situation that messed up.

edit On a side note, Although it would have set a nasty precedent maybe we should have just paid off Barca's debt to FDJ if we were just going to misspend those funds elsewhere.
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Casemiro has been a good signing..
He was.pivotal last season to take us to top 4..
Scored a few crucial goals.. and definitely helped with the mentality..
What we really needed was a Caicedo/Enzo alongside him..and he will be fine..
If you listen to Madrid players.
Antony.. I do not know..
 
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