You missed out owners. We're a mess.
What Are Other Clubs Managers And Coaches Doing That United Aren't.
- Thread starter Buster15
- Start date
I think it's really simple, it's recruitment. Nothing more than that.
If you have two slow CM's past their best there's every chance that midfield will be easily cut through.
If these players were to leave tomorrow where would they end up? How many from the Brighton game would get a top 4 club in one of the big leagues? Three of them maybe? Martinez, Bruno and Rashford? Even that's doubtful possibly.
How many would end up at a mid table club or maybe worse?
Eriksen and Casemiro's next move will be semi retirement. Lindelof, Reguilon, McTominay and Dalot are mid table players.
Fair point.
Quite agree.
The recruitment of players and people at all levels of the club has been woeful.
If only somebody in the club could change how things are done.
Poor old Glazers, there’s no way they could do what Most well run clubs do and basically find out how the best clubs in the world are run and just start from there.
When Sir Alex retired, Did they do what Roman did when he took over Chelsea’s and poach all the best in class in all areas of football , from the most successful clubs at the time ? Or maybe what city did by going around to all the top clubs in the world and making sure they had all the best infrastructures in place to help the club not just spend money but have a conveyor belt of talent where they are always bedding in replacements before they even need them? Or even what Liverpool and Brighton do where they have get ridiculous value for money (and can even challange for a league with Brendan Rodger’s?). No, They have to rely completely on getting a GOAT manager to fix everything, it’s not their fault they haven’t tried anything else and this golden goose has so far eluded them.
And the reason they don’t fix this is not because of the rumours that it suits them to have a certain structure that they oversea and have more control over. Even though most well run clubs don’t actually rely on managers and can replace them with little disruption, Uniteds problems are that clearly they are just unlucky with managers.
And as for spending, well how unlucky have the glazers been? Spending all that money , more than most and they have gotten a terrible return. It’s not their fault that they keep doing the same thing over and over again, making the same mistakes and nothing changes. I mean there is no club even remotely spending as much and getting so little in return, well maybe Chelsea now but that doesn’t mean Roman was clearly a more competent owner then their new lad, he’s just unlucky like the glazers. I heard somebody say that the glazers spending actually shows how bad they are because there is no other super or top club that’s wasted so much money without making meaningful changes , but that’s just mean.
As for the commercial end of the club bleeding into the football end (pre season and certain transfer targets etc) after sir Alex left, well wasn’t it worth it? The glazers core competency is marketing and increasing the club value. The reason this has effectively stalled since sir Alex left is not the glazers fault, they are just unlucky.
There were rumours some of the glazers wanted Sir Alex to retire so they could take full control over the club. Well they’ve tried really hard by making their mate Woodward (who they rightly wanted to reward for being integral to the leveraged buyout) the head of running the club. That’s the way good owners work, put your friends into integral positions of power at the club so they can chase Fabrecas around the world as a ruse so they can sign Fellaini for 10 million more then they needed to on transfer deadline day.
Even though you can find many examples of managers at other clubs who are unknowns or not even that big, do well, the problem at United is managers. Cause at United managers are what we need to win things cause managers coach the players. At well run clubs, it’s the correct football infrastructure that helps managers thrive, but that’s other clubs , it’s not the glazers fault that we aren’t “other clubs”.
The glazers only sign off on every major decision at the club, including club infrastructure projects , staff, players, managers , quality of training pitch , stadium Wi-Fi, martial contract extensions etc…….. How can people think they have any meaningful impact on what happens on the pitch?
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Nah, this sounds like more rhetoric to me. These players all perform highly before joining United, and despite not always playing good, cohesive football - they still contrive to finish near the top of the league. Also, again, a number of inferior players at other clubs are playing in a more unified manner.
How do you explain the job Ralph Hassenutl did at Southampton when he came in? The job Marco Silva did first at Hull, now at Fulham? Is everyone’s players just so much better than ours? How did Eddie Howe go in and turn a relegation squad into a top 4 one? Since when did players like Sancho, Casemiro, Varane, Shaw, Martial, Matic, Pogba, Ibrahimovic and many others make this long list of ‘average players’ we keep signing? There are a number of Golden Boy nominees and winners in there, multiple league winners elsewhere.
The answer I need is, once this forever dreadful transfer window ends (the window that you and I are often celebrating and saying what quality we have brought in), and it’s left to the coaches and the players until the next summer - what influence do ‘The Glazers’ have on their performance? From Florida! Why do they get outpassed by inferior players? Why do they seem to get dragged into an end to end battle against just about everyone? Why can’t they control a football match against ANYONE?
And what role do the owners play in your answer?
That’s because you don’t get it or don’t want to get it.
You asked for examples, people , including myself, have given you plenty, but you just ignore it and keep repeating yourself.
You are not answering my question. You are answering yours, seemingly the one you have been all programmed to regurgitate.
I don’t care about transfers, I don’t care about DoF this or that. In my scenario, the window is now closed. The soap opera of transfers is over and the actual football starts. From then on, whatever we have assembled is what we have assembled. Now it’s over to the manager or the coaches. From THIS point, what is Joel Glazer doing to stop said manager from getting the best out of the group in front of him? Not the hypothetical group of all the world’s best XI that you think the owners should have signed in the window. But the group we have.
The managers have not stamped a progressive style, struggle to get the team passing the ball, for years. That is between them, their coaches and their players.
You don’t care about transfers or DOF? All that means is you don’t want to understand why United managers are failing, you just want to focus on the fact it’s not working.
I don’t care for this in the response to the question I am asking. DoFs don’t coach the team and the transfer window is closed at this point. What now? From 1 September in any given year the team is doomed to being disorganised and unable to pass and move for the season?
And again, do I need to list all the managers from top to bottom of the PL that have managed to make their teams look cohesive, and also give you the personnel circumstances it happened under?
Either we have the worst set of players in the league and you feel our managers are all OVER- achieving (clearly in spite of ‘The Glazers’) in getting us to finish in the top 4, OR - we have one of the best squads in the league as reflected i our league table finishes. Which is it. Because it’s all transfers this and that, poor United managers, they don’t get anything from above. So are they all actually performing miracles and we should be grateful?
This thread is a conversation about coaching. Hence the title. The owner talk is all irrelevance in this context, and you have still not told me how Glazers impact Ten Hag at Carrington on daily basis, or how they impact the team on a Saturday afternoon in terms of how they play ball.
It appears we’re at a stalemate here, so perhaps the next contestant can have a go.
It really does seem like there's now a growing contingent who want to blame the manager's failings on the Glazers.
The Glazers are awful, but they're not inhibiting the managers from what occurs on the field after the window is closed.
I actually sympathize with @Rozay here.
The Glazers are awful, but they're not inhibiting the managers from what occurs on the field after the window is closed.
I actually sympathize with @Rozay here.
So, we're back to our players aren't good enough.
So ETH is performing miracles then? If the majority of our team is apparently nearing semi-retirement or mid-table players.
This was Brighton's XI vs us. Would you take a single player bar Mitoma to put in our squad?
I'm not losing hope on ETH yet, but he has to be held accountable for on-field stuff. Why are we constantly lessening expectations on our managers?
How many players that Brighton lined up with would end up at a top 4 club if they left tomorrow?
Welbeck? Van Hecke? Groß? Adingra? Lallana? Dahoud? Veltman? Actually, Veltman would probably end up at Old Trafford, for obvious reasons.
All but two are finishing behind Ten Hag
What expectations are there on the Brighton manager ? What expectations were there on Eddie Howe when Newcastle were a relagation team when he took over ? How is he doing in the legaue now that theres more expectation on him ?
What expectations were there on the players ? What expectations did the players have when joining these clubs ?
When RVP joined United, he joined to win a league. He wins the league and then SAF retires. United hire Moyes, an unproven manager. He wins his first league game 4-1 away and they draw to a 6 man Jose chelsea midfield at home. And then the club sign Fellaini to help United kick on from the last season. How does RVP feel about the ambitions shown by the club ? How do the rest of the squad, used to winning leagues and challanging for top honors feel about the ambitions of the club ?
What about Di Maria ? Is there a chance he signed , played well and then realised we werent the man united he was led to believe ? A club that will challanage for top honors ?
You find plenty of examples of this. Like when Jose got us to our best league finish and what did the club do ? Signed Fred and Dalot to kick on from that. If you are an ambituous player , how do you feel about your clubs chances of silverwear when the club is backing the manager and improving the squad in this manner ?
Or what about when managers dont want players or even have issues with them. The biggeest profile one is Pogba, who was kept on even when the manager didnt want him (deal with it). Why was Pogba kept on ? Who was he kept on for ? Was it anything to do with the fact that "the club had never had so many hits on its website" (Woodward) when he signed and his twitter following ?
Why do so many top class players fail under every manager we have at the club ? What is it about the club that makes even up and coming good players turn sh*t ? Why is it so hard for United to find a manager who can work , if its simply about that ? Why not sign Pelligrini, mancini ? They worked at city ?
Your entire point on coaching contradicts itself because you are coming at it from the wrong angle. Coaching isnt the issue. Why can the team look really good at times and at others look a disaster ? Why can some clubs win a champions league and have a disasterous season in the league ? Its nothing to do with coaching, its about what motivates players and different things motivates different players. Some players thrive on low expectations, others to the opposite, but most players lose confidence and drive when its clear that neither of these can be achieved.
The kind of players United are signing are either really ambituous or happy to take our stupid contracts and put in sub par performances. Being ambitious is great, but as soon as they see that the conditions needed for success are not there, their form collapses. Players dont just respond to coaches/managers, they respond to their own expectations and nothing a manager can say or do can change that if they can see the conditions at the club arent right.
So you dont think ETH not having an actual decent striker to start since he took over is not an issue ? Having to deal with massive player issues (Ronaldo, Anthony, Greenwood, Sancho) doesnt affect the culture and harmony in the squad ? You cant give examples of clubs that have comparable , consistent issus with recruitment , player issues etc and yet you think its irrelevant to how a manager does ?
I just think player power got the better of Chelsea and United. We haven't had a manager that commands respect. It's very hard to implement stuff when the player refuses to follow your gameplan.
This doesn't happen under SAF. Other non top 6 teams dont have star players that can dictate the manager. Ours is filled with them.
The sample size is big enough. Mou, LVG, ETH, Rangnick. They might pass their best but tell me with straight face they dont know the basic of football.
This doesn't happen under SAF. Other non top 6 teams dont have star players that can dictate the manager. Ours is filled with them.
The sample size is big enough. Mou, LVG, ETH, Rangnick. They might pass their best but tell me with straight face they dont know the basic of football.
Also, what happens when Pep doesnt want a player ? they are discarded quickly and he gets a similar or better replacement. That doesnt happen at United, we end up with unhappy players stinking out the place. How can anybody not understand how that would have serious impacts on a managers capacity to harness a winning culture ?
As much as Ronaldo was whining last season, there was some truth in his rant. Training facilities and certain infrastructures at the club are poor, how exactly do you think Top professionals feel when they come from state of the art clubs and staff to United ? And they see the Martials, Phil Jones etc on massive contracts, basically picking up pay cheques .
Like its not that hard to see how United managers have so many issues to deal with in harnessing a winning culture before they even get the players out onto the training ground.
This entire thread is a bit of a red herring. Its nothing to do with what United managers are doing (coaching) in comparison to other clubs, its what United managers have to suffer and manage over what other club managers dont thats the issue.
So, we're back to our players aren't good enough.
So ETH is performing miracles then? If the majority of our team is apparently nearing semi-retirement or mid-table players.
This was Brighton's XI vs us. Would you take a single player bar Mitoma to put in our squad?
I'm not losing hope on ETH yet, but he has to be held accountable for on-field stuff. Why are we constantly lessening expectations on our managers?
I've personally never moved away from footballers being the most important part of results. But I'm not excusing managers, they all play a big role in recruitment at United. So if recruitment is poor that's at least partly on them.
I'd take more than Mitoma from Brighton but that's a one off game.
Have a go at answering my question in previous post.
@Chumpsbechumps
So basically our managers are struggling to cope with the expectation or have I missed your point here? Expectations are relative, and often still high pressure. Gary O’Niell’s task wasn’t to win the league At Bournemouth. It was to avoid relegation. Similarly pressurised.
What expectations were there on the players ? What expectations did the players have when joining these clubs ?
When RVP joined United, he joined to win a league. He wins the league and then SAF retires. United hire Moyes, an unproven manager. He wins his first league game 4-1 away and they draw to a 6 man Jose chelsea midfield at home. And then the club sign Fellaini to help United kick on from the last season. How does RVP feel about the ambitions shown by the club ? How do the rest of the squad, used to winning leagues and challanging for top honors feel about the ambitions of the club ?
Di Maria joined Manchester United, one of the world’s biggest clubs, who had just appointed Louis Van Gaal - a multiple league title and Champions League winning manager who had just led Netherlands to the semi-final of a World Cup. He joined in the same summer they had just broken the world record for a teenager on Luke Shaw, signed title winners in Blind, Di Maria’s international teammate and WC regular in Marcos Rojo, Ander Herrera and Falcao. If his impression was that he joined a club not intent on winning things that is on him.
I think this is just wise after the fact. Fred and Dalot were not unambitious signings, and we beat many a top club to acquire them.
The club got rid of players like Schweinsteiger who Jose didn’t want. Got rid of Depay who Jose didn’t want. There was no indication that he wanted to sell Pogba, certainly not before the end. It was Jose who signed Pogba! And he was one of his key players, although he wanted more from him, but except at the ugly end, I don’t recall him being a player Jose wanted to get rid of. Other way round perhaps with Real Madrid links for Pogba. In any case, the club are not going to just tear up Pogba’s contract. Who did they refuse to sell him to? There was one time, in the midst of plenty of speculation, where Real Madrid made a bid for him (after Jose had left) and we rejected it as it was derisory. And Ole very much wanted to keep him.
I don’t have the answer to this question I’m afraid. What I will say is that our failure is relative, of course. You would never think that we float around the top 3 of this league the way we are spoken of. More like bottom three. The fact is, our managers beat most teams across most seasons, which is why they finish above them. The problem here is that they can’t go the step further. And for me, that is because nobody is taking the time, probably for reasons linked to your first point about expectations - to actually build a team on foundations and principles rather than on quality players. We will never win top trophies until we become greater than the sum of our parts, but nobody has had the patience to try and achieve this. And when you finish second, I can see the temptation. Just spend a few hundred million to add to what just came second or third and then we’ll be in business. But we are taking shortcuts. It will never work. It might have in Fergie’s day, but the bar has been raised and we will never simply buy our way to the PL title again. We don’t have enough money to do that, and we’re not the only team that can spend.
I don’t think my point contradicts. My point instead seeks to simplify. To get that, I think we at least need to agree on what the question is here, and to my understanding, the question is why do other coaches manage to get their teams to play a progressive brand of football and why do we rarely look good? No more, no less.
As for off field issues, that is life in top football, and also nothing to do with our owners. Unless they brought allegations against Greenwood and Antony, or caused Sancho to throw a strop. You speak of motivation of signings. This is the manager’s job. It’s not the CEO or owner’s job to motivate the players, it is the job of the manager. And certainly, getting some highly paid, decorated footballers to pass in triangles is the job of nobody but the manager. And that part is the extent of my argument here.
We have several managers who could make several excuses. You say ‘why didn’t we sell Pogba?’. Another manager will say ‘why did you sell Kane?’. Or Caicedo or many others who lost their best players over and over and just got on with it.[/QUOTE]
So basically our managers are struggling to cope with the expectation or have I missed your point here? Expectations are relative, and often still high pressure. Gary O’Niell’s task wasn’t to win the league At Bournemouth. It was to avoid relegation. Similarly pressurised.
What expectations were there on the players ? What expectations did the players have when joining these clubs ?
When RVP joined United, he joined to win a league. He wins the league and then SAF retires. United hire Moyes, an unproven manager. He wins his first league game 4-1 away and they draw to a 6 man Jose chelsea midfield at home. And then the club sign Fellaini to help United kick on from the last season. How does RVP feel about the ambitions shown by the club ? How do the rest of the squad, used to winning leagues and challanging for top honors feel about the ambitions of the club ?
Di Maria joined Manchester United, one of the world’s biggest clubs, who had just appointed Louis Van Gaal - a multiple league title and Champions League winning manager who had just led Netherlands to the semi-final of a World Cup. He joined in the same summer they had just broken the world record for a teenager on Luke Shaw, signed title winners in Blind, Di Maria’s international teammate and WC regular in Marcos Rojo, Ander Herrera and Falcao. If his impression was that he joined a club not intent on winning things that is on him.
I think this is just wise after the fact. Fred and Dalot were not unambitious signings, and we beat many a top club to acquire them.
The club got rid of players like Schweinsteiger who Jose didn’t want. Got rid of Depay who Jose didn’t want. There was no indication that he wanted to sell Pogba, certainly not before the end. It was Jose who signed Pogba! And he was one of his key players, although he wanted more from him, but except at the ugly end, I don’t recall him being a player Jose wanted to get rid of. Other way round perhaps with Real Madrid links for Pogba. In any case, the club are not going to just tear up Pogba’s contract. Who did they refuse to sell him to? There was one time, in the midst of plenty of speculation, where Real Madrid made a bid for him (after Jose had left) and we rejected it as it was derisory. And Ole very much wanted to keep him.
I don’t have the answer to this question I’m afraid. What I will say is that our failure is relative, of course. You would never think that we float around the top 3 of this league the way we are spoken of. More like bottom three. The fact is, our managers beat most teams across most seasons, which is why they finish above them. The problem here is that they can’t go the step further. And for me, that is because nobody is taking the time, probably for reasons linked to your first point about expectations - to actually build a team on foundations and principles rather than on quality players. We will never win top trophies until we become greater than the sum of our parts, but nobody has had the patience to try and achieve this. And when you finish second, I can see the temptation. Just spend a few hundred million to add to what just came second or third and then we’ll be in business. But we are taking shortcuts. It will never work. It might have in Fergie’s day, but the bar has been raised and we will never simply buy our way to the PL title again. We don’t have enough money to do that, and we’re not the only team that can spend.
I don’t think my point contradicts. My point instead seeks to simplify. To get that, I think we at least need to agree on what the question is here, and to my understanding, the question is why do other coaches manage to get their teams to play a progressive brand of football and why do we rarely look good? No more, no less.
As for off field issues, that is life in top football, and also nothing to do with our owners. Unless they brought allegations against Greenwood and Antony, or caused Sancho to throw a strop. You speak of motivation of signings. This is the manager’s job. It’s not the CEO or owner’s job to motivate the players, it is the job of the manager. And certainly, getting some highly paid, decorated footballers to pass in triangles is the job of nobody but the manager. And that part is the extent of my argument here.
We have several managers who could make several excuses. You say ‘why didn’t we sell Pogba?’. Another manager will say ‘why did you sell Kane?’. Or Caicedo or many others who lost their best players over and over and just got on with it.[/QUOTE]
They fear pep. Just like they feared Fergie. They know they wont win and they'll be shipped out.
None of our managers has this authority, either artificially or naturally. They need to please the gangs or they'll stop playing for him and we United have to realistically choose them over him
This is Fergie's biggest fear, the players are getting bigger than the club. It's a scary spiral
I can think of quite a few points we aren't doing right:
@manager:
- Don't think he has the authority to bench some people who need benching
- He does seem a bit stubborn with his selections, formation and, especially, his tactics (either that or the players just aren't arsed which goes back to him lacking authority over them)
- In-game management is bad
- Youth players aren't given the chance when main players are not performing, which is not a sign of a United manager in my book
@coaches:
- The players can't still send a crisp pass, have a decent 1st touch or run into/occupy space. To me, this is worrisome to say the least.
- We seem to have no clue what to do on set pieces
- We seem to reach very very badly when the opposition team changes their game plan a bit, almost like the players just can't observe the game and sort it out themselves when not following a certain plan
For all the good things ETH has done until now, there is an obvious lack of a certain something that is starting to surface, which shouldn't happen this early in a season for such a well "recognized" manager. However, we need to spare him a bit as the club is a fecking shit-show.
Even if the question is more about managers/coaches, you can't really put the club aside:
- lack of leadership at the top
- lack of people actually qualified for the job, especially at the top, which springs to mind at least a few doubts about what is happening there and what they are hiding
- lack of "best in class" in terms of sports science, medicine, nutrition, etc
The club needs to sort out the standards as the players don't seem to be arsed, the players need coaching as it's obvious as feck that they can be.( I mean, if Danny Wellbeck of all people can make runs, drag defenders, come deep, etc, then our younger and more qualitative players should as well.)
So yeah, tough season ahead and a lot of changes and tweaks here and there for ETH to do, some of them with a bit more elegance than what he did until now. Let's see in a few months when our new players are properly integrated as well.
@manager:
- Don't think he has the authority to bench some people who need benching
- He does seem a bit stubborn with his selections, formation and, especially, his tactics (either that or the players just aren't arsed which goes back to him lacking authority over them)
- In-game management is bad
- Youth players aren't given the chance when main players are not performing, which is not a sign of a United manager in my book
@coaches:
- The players can't still send a crisp pass, have a decent 1st touch or run into/occupy space. To me, this is worrisome to say the least.
- We seem to have no clue what to do on set pieces
- We seem to reach very very badly when the opposition team changes their game plan a bit, almost like the players just can't observe the game and sort it out themselves when not following a certain plan
For all the good things ETH has done until now, there is an obvious lack of a certain something that is starting to surface, which shouldn't happen this early in a season for such a well "recognized" manager. However, we need to spare him a bit as the club is a fecking shit-show.
Even if the question is more about managers/coaches, you can't really put the club aside:
- lack of leadership at the top
- lack of people actually qualified for the job, especially at the top, which springs to mind at least a few doubts about what is happening there and what they are hiding
- lack of "best in class" in terms of sports science, medicine, nutrition, etc
The club needs to sort out the standards as the players don't seem to be arsed, the players need coaching as it's obvious as feck that they can be.( I mean, if Danny Wellbeck of all people can make runs, drag defenders, come deep, etc, then our younger and more qualitative players should as well.)
So yeah, tough season ahead and a lot of changes and tweaks here and there for ETH to do, some of them with a bit more elegance than what he did until now. Let's see in a few months when our new players are properly integrated as well.
From what we're seeing on the pitch, patterns of buildup/attacking play for one thing.
Our players are never instantly on the same wavelength knowing where each other are going to be before the opponents can react. Its always receive the ball, look up, think about it and then pick a safe option or lose the ball. We dont look like a team well drilled on how our individual parts work together to be better as a whole going forward. Things as simple as our wingers picking up the ball and coming inside but playing an easy pass to the overlapping player on the outside to make progress down the wing. Rashford doesnt do much of that, Antony pretty much never does that with AWB. 4 out of 5 times they come inside, the fullback sprints down the wing and they choose not to play the simple pass out to them and probe inside finding nothing, a blocked shot because they didnt move the ball enough or ending up passing the ball backwards. And now our fullbacks are high up the pitch and need to chase back if we lose the ball, or reset to once again be avilable in the attack.
"Lesser teams" do this with ease against us. They have a plan, they know what they're doing when they do get the chance to break or go forward. They arent taking 3 touches each, looking up, thinking and then making a choice. They are making their attacking moments count.
Our players are never instantly on the same wavelength knowing where each other are going to be before the opponents can react. Its always receive the ball, look up, think about it and then pick a safe option or lose the ball. We dont look like a team well drilled on how our individual parts work together to be better as a whole going forward. Things as simple as our wingers picking up the ball and coming inside but playing an easy pass to the overlapping player on the outside to make progress down the wing. Rashford doesnt do much of that, Antony pretty much never does that with AWB. 4 out of 5 times they come inside, the fullback sprints down the wing and they choose not to play the simple pass out to them and probe inside finding nothing, a blocked shot because they didnt move the ball enough or ending up passing the ball backwards. And now our fullbacks are high up the pitch and need to chase back if we lose the ball, or reset to once again be avilable in the attack.
"Lesser teams" do this with ease against us. They have a plan, they know what they're doing when they do get the chance to break or go forward. They arent taking 3 touches each, looking up, thinking and then making a choice. They are making their attacking moments count.
Why can’t we do this, in spite of our owners?
Honestly I looked at RB Leipzig's lineup yesterday and immediately placed bets on them to win against Young Boys comfortably. If it were us I wouldn't have done so.
Sesko, Openda & Xavi Simmons in a summer. I cannot believe we didn't go for any of them. They would have been cheaper, too.
Sesko, Openda & Xavi Simmons in a summer. I cannot believe we didn't go for any of them. They would have been cheaper, too.
So, we're back to our players aren't good enough.
So ETH is performing miracles then? If the majority of our team is apparently nearing semi-retirement or mid-table players.
This was Brighton's XI vs us. Would you take a single player bar Mitoma to put in our squad?
I'm not losing hope on ETH yet, but he has to be held accountable for on-field stuff. Why are we constantly lessening expectations on our managers?
I think this is one of the problems. Ego.
Yes I'd take several players of theirs as squad players are you nuts? Gross is a good central midfielder and would instantly be an upgrade on Eriksen/Mount. He's 32 thats the only issue, but if I could just have him or not? You'd have to be stupid to choose not.
Lamptey. Did we attack well enough to give him a real test? No. Absolutely not. But he was playing left fullback and at least going forward was a big part of their success against us. Having him as a bench option when we have most of the game and are willing to push our fullback as an auxillary winger? Something we plainly dont have right now. Plenty to prove in order to say he should be a starter, but as a squad player? Easy
Van Hecke has started the season well and fits right into their playing out of the back system. He's 23. Our CBs are injured, looking off the pace coming back from injury or Lindelof. I think on current form he'd have a good shot playing
Of course Brighton were missing a bunch of their starting players and ones you'd probably take before the ones above. However dont turn your nose up at perceived "lesser" teams than us. They are performing well and we are not. The level of our players in some positions especially backups is midtable or at best europa league. Of course these players would back themselves to outdo the likes of McTom and Lindelof
If the manager was picked to play the system the club/DOF wants they would be the right players. Thats the trouble with our scattergun approach to managers.
Eth is very poor in identifying players that maybe tired or potentially be leggy with travel /no of games. E.g. Casemiro and McT both travel and games. If Eth watches the Eng/Scot game, he should never pick Mct over Hannibal. Im not sure what McLaren does, but i think we need a new sidekick here.
Not many, that's why they finished 6th last season.
Yet they managed to outplay us. With these inferior players. Two years straight. You would imagine if their players were of higher quality, they would be comfortably better than us. You would think the only thing that stops Brighton finishing ahead of us this season is that we have better footballers.
Our problem is that we can’t extract the additional 10% or so from our players being more than the sum of our parts. Until we can do that, we will struggle because our players are not THAT much better than everyone else’s so that they win regardless. Even PSG’s players, who were often that much better than most, have failed to win the CL and at times Ligue Un. A team of XI talented individuals will struggle against an XI of slightly less talented but brilliantly organised players. And our players are not even that good anyway.
I think you've got confused about the point here.
I'm just saying our players aren't good enough to win leagues/big cups.
You pointing out Brighton's aren't either is I don't know what. I agree they're not and indeed they've yet to finish top 4. They won't this season either.
This is undoubtedly true. And when you get a team that is both (City a lot recently, Liverpool a bit, Bayern a few years ago, RM a few years ago) then they are exceptionally difficult to best over the course of a season.
What I thought Brighton did well at, which Utd didn’t was really the simple things. Their first goal- winning possession and going swiftly from a defensive to offensive posture, creating space on the right wing, getting a cross in, well timed strikers runs; it’s very good but it’s not some moment of genius. It just looked like a well drilled team who had played that series of passes 100 times in training in the previous weeks, and simply copied it exactly on the day. I guess that’s the kind of thing I don’t see Utd doing as much. It can’t be that the players aren’t capable, they clearly *could* replicate that exactly. But for some reason they aren’t.
We know why Brighton won’t win the league (probably). My understanding of ‘the point’ of this thread is why our coaches haven’t gotten us to play football in a manner as organised as other coaches. Our coach is able to play good football regardless of our players being good enough to win big cups/leagues. That’s what the point of discussion is.
You won’t see a thread asking why Eddie Howe or Arteta fail to get their teams to play like other coaches, despite a general acknowledgment that their players are not good enough to win the CL.
Let’s first consistently play well and then look at improving the quality of the players. The players we have are the players we have. A coach should get his players to look like a unit, just as De Zerbi has done. This is the point, not whether or not our individuals can win a title.
This is the ONLY point here. Is this really too much to ask of our collection of players and their manager?
Yes indeed.
And without criticising EtH too much, didn't he say that he wanted his team to be the best in transition.
I realise it doesn't happen overnight. But we are miles away from that right now.
Correct.
A billion dollar question.
If someone has the answer, it could have saved us a billion.
If someone has the answer, it could have saved us a billion.
Good post, the key is whether we're getting the most out of what we have and not what we need to win titles. If we were playing a style that demanded a world class 11 before it became effective that would be terrible management but we're not.
Right now we're simply not a functioning team. ETH for whatever reason isn't currently able to make this lot play to his vision, despite the players being better than what he's previously had available.
I'm still hopeful as I think he has the right ideas but there's question marks on his ability to translate it into action. If he can't get certain players to press it's a major concern but fine he should then try other options even if it's youth. Yet it seems he relies on 'better players' even if they don't follow instruction.
Since Fergie retired and Gill left, we've had non-football people making footballing decisions. It's really as simple as that. The Glazers and Woodward/Arnold shouldn't be involved in the footballing decisions. Their input on that side should begin and end with setting budgets and deciding who the sporting director is.
Instead, we've had them instilling unqualified people (Murtough/Fletcher) into the sporting director roles, still seemingly involving themselves in transfer decisions (renewing contracts to "protect value", etc.), and the managers ultimately still have too much power when it comes to "big picture" stuff. The manager should fit into the direction outlined by the sporting director(s), but we're still deferring to each individual manager. As an example, Brighton have hardly missed a beat despite losing their manager and a host of key players, and that's precisely because of the set up above the manager.
Our transfer process is outdated and inefficient, and again gives the manager too much power. As a result, our squad isn't cohesive as each manager has brought in players to fit different styles (with occasional "board" signings thrown in).
Scouting department clearly hasn't been doing its job, but we've never really had anyone in place to actually overhaul it.
From a playing squad perspective, the reason no manager seems to be able to get them playing how he wants is because we've got too many players who are work shy. You can argue it's up to the manager to motivate the players, but we know that some simply won't do it. At other clubs, these players are simply moved along. At United, they've been handed new contracts to "protect value".
We can sack EtH, and may well end up doing so soon if results don't improve, but the reality is that while we have such a shite setup at the top, nothing will change.
As a comparison to our inability to overhaul a squad, Klopp joining Liverpool was basically them entering the modern age as a club. The season Klopp joined Liverpool, 37 players made appearances for them that weren't signed by him. Going forward, and excluding players sold/loaned out when the season was underway, and academy players that didn't play any part in the season he joined, this number is down to 18 in his first full season and 12 the season after. It was down to 10 in the next season, when they won the CL, and just seven the year they won the league. It's also worth keeping in mind that some of these are the likes of Ings and Ward, or academy graduates, making a handful of appearances at most, or players like Lallana, Origi and Lovren who were, to varying degrees, useful members of the squad.
When Mourinho was sacked during his third season, there were still 16 players from before his tenure making appearances for the club, only four of which made fewer than 10 league appearances that season (Rojo, Romero, Valencia, Darmian). When Solskjaer was sacked during his third (full) season, there were still 15 players from before his tenure making appearances for the club, and again, only four made fewer than 10 league appearances that season (Jones, Bailly, Mata, Martial).
Instead, we've had them instilling unqualified people (Murtough/Fletcher) into the sporting director roles, still seemingly involving themselves in transfer decisions (renewing contracts to "protect value", etc.), and the managers ultimately still have too much power when it comes to "big picture" stuff. The manager should fit into the direction outlined by the sporting director(s), but we're still deferring to each individual manager. As an example, Brighton have hardly missed a beat despite losing their manager and a host of key players, and that's precisely because of the set up above the manager.
Our transfer process is outdated and inefficient, and again gives the manager too much power. As a result, our squad isn't cohesive as each manager has brought in players to fit different styles (with occasional "board" signings thrown in).
Scouting department clearly hasn't been doing its job, but we've never really had anyone in place to actually overhaul it.
From a playing squad perspective, the reason no manager seems to be able to get them playing how he wants is because we've got too many players who are work shy. You can argue it's up to the manager to motivate the players, but we know that some simply won't do it. At other clubs, these players are simply moved along. At United, they've been handed new contracts to "protect value".
We can sack EtH, and may well end up doing so soon if results don't improve, but the reality is that while we have such a shite setup at the top, nothing will change.
As a comparison to our inability to overhaul a squad, Klopp joining Liverpool was basically them entering the modern age as a club. The season Klopp joined Liverpool, 37 players made appearances for them that weren't signed by him. Going forward, and excluding players sold/loaned out when the season was underway, and academy players that didn't play any part in the season he joined, this number is down to 18 in his first full season and 12 the season after. It was down to 10 in the next season, when they won the CL, and just seven the year they won the league. It's also worth keeping in mind that some of these are the likes of Ings and Ward, or academy graduates, making a handful of appearances at most, or players like Lallana, Origi and Lovren who were, to varying degrees, useful members of the squad.
When Mourinho was sacked during his third season, there were still 16 players from before his tenure making appearances for the club, only four of which made fewer than 10 league appearances that season (Rojo, Romero, Valencia, Darmian). When Solskjaer was sacked during his third (full) season, there were still 15 players from before his tenure making appearances for the club, and again, only four made fewer than 10 league appearances that season (Jones, Bailly, Mata, Martial).
First part of your post is right. Its not though that players are work shy, though mentality is a factor. We simply pay far too much money for them to care too much. Another thing is players were signed with different styles of play and dont fit into what each new manager wants. ALso apart from ETH, our managerial appointments were terrible (Moyes, Ole, RR) or over the hill/ found out (LVG, MOu)