What Are Other Clubs Managers And Coaches Doing That United Aren't.

Buster15

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We have been out played this season by the likes of Brighton, Wolves and Tottenham. And despite spending a lot of money, we don't seem to be improving.
Brighton in particular have sold some of their players. And yet they were able to cut through our midfield and defence far too easily.
We have changed managers and coaches.
So what is it that other clubs are doing that United are not.
Is it fitness, nutrition, training coaching.
What is it that other clubs are doing so much better than United?
 
It starts from the top and we all know about the parasites.
As I said on another thread I am baffled they didnt want to put the right people in charge as in CEO and DOF.
Talk about penny wise pound foolish. They could have been sitting on a gold mine probably without debt and without fan backlash if we had have planned correctly after Fergie. We were still top dog at that time and been run so much better.
They have mostly wasted £1.3 billion on stupid transfers, where having a system and bringing in manager(s) and players to match the system, could have been so much different.
 
wolvored said:
It starts from the top and we all know about the parasites.
As I said on another thread I am baffled they didnt want to put the right people in charge as in CEO and DOF.
Talk about penny wise pound foolish. They could have been sitting on a gold mine probably without debt and without fan backlash if we had have planned correctly after Fergie. We were still top dog at that time and been run so much better.
They have mostly wasted £1.3 billion on stupid transfers, where having a system and bringing in manager(s) and players to match the system, could have been so much different.
Click to expand...

Arnold and Woodward wasn't cheap.

They got mega salary.

Glazers are just stupid but penny pinching on wages and transfer arent their trait. They just appoint the wrong one.

And we spend 1 bn post Fergie
 
We weren't really outplayed by Spurs. But anyway.


Other clubs don't have to deal with:
  • Injury crisis at the start of the season (Shaw, Malacia, Martinez, Varane, Lindelof, Maguire, Wan bissaka, amrabat, mount, Mainoo, hojlund, amad have all missed time so far when they would have been used)
  • Ridiculous match overload last season probably impacting the above point but also leading to mental fatigue this season possibly (happens often)
  • 2 DV cases to promising RW players taking them out of selection and creating tons of negative attention
  • A club sale situation where nobody knows what the owners actually want, creating uncertainty throughout the club at every level in terms of if people will keep their jobs on a daily basis. This kills morale
  • Years of mismanagement and going after bad targets leading to situations where our highest paid player isn't the 1st or backup choice LW, isn't th 1st or backup choice #10 or isn't the 1st choice RW... leading to disgruntlement and unhappiness
It's a lot to deal with. First things first, getting players back fit. Getting them mentally fresh. Blocking out the off pitch distractions like the sale and the negative publicity of the 3 young wingers. Slowly getting rid of unwanted players like Maguire, McTominay, Sancho.
 
Sky1981 said:
Arnold and Woodward wasn't cheap.

They got mega salary.

Glazers are just stupid but penny pinching on wages and transfer arent their trait. They just appoint the wrong one.

And we spend 1 bn post Fergie
Click to expand...
Google reckon £1.5 billion since Fergie so were both wrong. They were saying a billion a few years ago. That bit about Arnold and Woodward is even better then. More planning and thought and we could have got whoever was available in 2013. Anyone with any nous is better than those two who have none.
 
They treat managers like condoms. Single use and easily disposable.
 
wolvored said:
Google reckon £1.5 billion since Fergie so were both wrong. They were saying a billion a few years ago. That bit about Arnold and Woodward is even better then. More planning and thought and we could have got whoever was available in 2013. Anyone with any nous is better than those two who have none.
Click to expand...

To be fair 10 years ago they actually listened to the supposedly GOAT manager in SAF. He comes out with David Moyes against the whole economic and business logic because he somehow cut from the same cloth

I think if the Glazers actually stop listening to football man and just hire the Harvard business guys who does the recruitment by the book i.e. looking for CVs and actual recruitment without sentimentality and job for the boys bullshit they would fare better.

If there's one thing this businessman does very well is being ruthless and chosing the best person for the job.

We all knew deep inside Moyes was the wrong un but in Fergie we trust.

They did trust him the 2nd time with Ole again for the lack of ruthlessness and sentimentality.
 
Sky1981 said:
Dont accept mediocrity and rebuilding bullshit?

2 years and 500m for every manager.

Years and years of he has potential maybe next year is his year
Click to expand...

This is literally what has been happening for the last 10 years.
 
bosnian_red said:
We weren't really outplayed by Spurs. But anyway.


Other clubs don't have to deal with:
  • Injury crisis at the start of the season (Shaw, Malacia, Martinez, Varane, Lindelof, Maguire, Wan bissaka, amrabat, mount, Mainoo, hojlund, amad have all missed time so far when they would have been used)
  • Ridiculous match overload last season probably impacting the above point but also leading to mental fatigue this season possibly (happens often)
  • 2 DV cases to promising RW players taking them out of selection and creating tons of negative attention
  • A club sale situation where nobody knows what the owners actually want, creating uncertainty throughout the club at every level in terms of if people will keep their jobs on a daily basis. This kills morale
  • Years of mismanagement and going after bad targets leading to situations where our highest paid player isn't the 1st or backup choice LW, isn't th 1st or backup choice #10 or isn't the 1st choice RW... leading to disgruntlement and unhappiness
It's a lot to deal with. First things first, getting players back fit. Getting them mentally fresh. Blocking out the off pitch distractions like the sale and the negative publicity of the 3 young wingers. Slowly getting rid of unwanted players like Maguire, McTominay, Sancho.
Click to expand...

Agree with all of this.
The years of mismanagement is spot on. We can see that the clubs with the best management are the most successful.
And not just the best managers. But those in charge of actually running the football club. They have the best people in charge of each of the various functions including HR, Recruitment, Finance, Commercial, Business Strategy, Data Analysis and Infrastructure for example.
And then there is the Footballing side of the business.

Each of these has to operate in a coordinated structure aimed at being the very best run.
And the problems at OT prove that they certainly are not.
 
bosnian_red said:
We weren't really outplayed by Spurs. But anyway.


Other clubs don't have to deal with:
  • Injury crisis at the start of the season (Shaw, Malacia, Martinez, Varane, Lindelof, Maguire, Wan bissaka, amrabat, mount, Mainoo, hojlund, amad have all missed time so far when they would have been used)
  • Ridiculous match overload last season probably impacting the above point but also leading to mental fatigue this season possibly (happens often)
  • 2 DV cases to promising RW players taking them out of selection and creating tons of negative attention
  • A club sale situation where nobody knows what the owners actually want, creating uncertainty throughout the club at every level in terms of if people will keep their jobs on a daily basis. This kills morale
  • Years of mismanagement and going after bad targets leading to situations where our highest paid player isn't the 1st or backup choice LW, isn't th 1st or backup choice #10 or isn't the 1st choice RW... leading to disgruntlement and unhappiness
It's a lot to deal with. First things first, getting players back fit. Getting them mentally fresh. Blocking out the off pitch distractions like the sale and the negative publicity of the 3 young wingers. Slowly getting rid of unwanted players like Maguire, McTominay, Sancho.
Click to expand...
we don't suffer anymore injuries than anybody else. Our fans always exaggerate this compared to other teams. Mason Greenwood was pretty much forgotten and swept under the rug as he was suspened and we just moved on.

https://www.planetfootball.com/quic...table-22-23-liverpool-chelsea-arsenal-man-utd

https://www.sportskeeda.com/footbal...njuries-last-season-2022-23-chelsea-liverpool
 
There are so many different things others do that we don't and things we do that others don't;

They manage expectation better than we do;
They have management and admin structures that are complimentary to running a football club, not just a business;
They build squads of players to meet their identified needs, they adapt their game plans to suit what they have, until they can change;
They recognise that football is a simple game and don't try to over complicate (e.g. on Saturday Brighton's ability to nullify our attempts at pressing was a master class in simplicity and all through the first half they could 'rinse and repeat' and we still didn't notice until half time!)
They (appear) to try to get 'round pegs in round' holes, throughout the club, not just on the pitch.

We are unable to manage any expectations almost at any level within the club and certainly not on the pitch;
We appear to have at every level, a mixture/surplus of assistants to support a particular area of management or admin, resulting it seems as if "too many cooks" etc.
We have had 'gaping' needs/adjustments all over the pitch, but specifically in midfield, (almost before SAF left,) with strikers, which at best are filled temporally, (usually it was related to selling more shirts) etc. However; we have an abundance of wingers, of No'8/10's. What exactly is Bruno's role? He works hard, perhaps the hardest of all, but what exactly is his role in the team plan, 'be here there and everywhere' Captain?
We tend to over complicate matters, whether its quick free kicks where no one but the taker actually knows what he is doing and where the ball a large part of the time finishes back with our keeper, wanting ball to feet, 'pass and move' is almost a lost art at the moment, arriving late in the penalty area (another master class from Brighton ( Welbeck) on Saturday for first goal), now and again we can do some fantastic things, almost by accident, but most of all with lack of running, chasing, finding space, etc. we simply don't do the simple things well, if at all!
We have more 'square pegs hammered into round holes' throughout the club than is good for us, the only two round pegs in round holes on the pitch are basically Martinez and Varane, they always look the part!
 
Stacks said:
we don't suffer anymore injuries than anybody else. Our fans always exaggerate this compared to other teams. Mason Greenwood was pretty much forgotten and swept under the rug as he was suspened and we just moved on.

https://www.planetfootball.com/quic...table-22-23-liverpool-chelsea-arsenal-man-utd

https://www.sportskeeda.com/footbal...njuries-last-season-2022-23-chelsea-liverpool
Click to expand...
Normally no. This season obviously we are dealing with an injury crisis. Last season we were quite good with injuries. And we did well last season, so the whole "what are other clubs doing that we aren't" doesn't apply much as we were... 3rd. And won a cup. And reached another final.

Injuries are an in the moment thing. They impact right now. United and Chelsea are struggling with them right now and lo and behold, it is impacting results for both.
 
Maticmaker said:
There are so many different things others do that we don't and things we do that others don't;

They manage expectation better than we do;
They have management and admin structures that are complimentary to running a football club, not just a business;
They build squads of players to meet their identified needs, they adapt their game plans to suit what they have, until they can change;
They recognise that football is a simple game and don't try to over complicate (e.g. on Saturday Brighton's ability to nullify our attempts at pressing was a master class in simplicity and all through the first half they could 'rinse and repeat' and we still didn't notice until half time!)
They (appear) to try to get 'round pegs in round' holes, throughout the club, not just on the pitch.

We are unable to manage any expectations almost at any level within the club and certainly not on the pitch;
We appear to have at every level, a mixture/surplus of assistants to support a particular area of management or admin, resulting it seems as if "too many cooks" etc.
We have had 'gaping' needs/adjustments all over the pitch, but specifically in midfield, (almost before SAF left,) with strikers, which at best are filled temporally, (usually it was related to selling more shirts) etc. However; we have an abundance of wingers, of No'8/10's. What exactly is Bruno's role? He works hard, perhaps the hardest of all, but what exactly is his role in the team plan, 'be here there and everywhere' Captain?
We tend to over complicate matters, whether its quick free kicks where no one but the taker actually knows what he is doing and where the ball a large part of the time finishes back with our keeper, wanting ball to feet, 'pass and move' is almost a lost art at the moment, arriving late in the penalty area (another master class from Brighton ( Welbeck) on Saturday for first goal), now and again we can do some fantastic things, almost by accident, but most of all with lack of running, chasing, finding space, etc. we simply don't do the simple things well, if at all!
We have more 'square pegs hammered into round holes' throughout the club than is good for us, the only two round pegs in round holes on the pitch are basically Martinez and Varane, they always look the part!
Click to expand...

Another good assessment although I am not that sure about managing expectations. The club don't seem to have any expectations and the supporters, in the main, are getting to be pretty realistic. Yes we demand the best but understand that this is not likely to come to fruition.
 
bosnian_red said:
Normally no. This season obviously we are dealing with an injury crisis. Last season we were quite good with injuries. And we did well last season, so the whole "what are other clubs doing that we aren't" doesn't apply much as we were... 3rd. And won a cup. And reached another final.

Injuries are an in the moment thing. They impact right now. United and Chelsea are struggling with them right now and lo and behold, it is impacting results for both.
Click to expand...

Yes we were 3rd last season. But to a degree that just papered over the cracks and the same old problems are now resurfacing.
We simply are not a well run and well managed club.
We are not doing the right things anything like well enough and have not been for far too many years. That is the bottom line.
 
We have a genuine injury crisis.
Maguire, Varane, Mount, Amrabat, AWB, Shaw, Malacia is a bit of a joke. Plus Hojlund is being managed and Antony is out.

Apart from this our club has shied away from fast players. No idea why but look at the sluggish midfield we have and we always seem to look physically out matched because we couple this issue with constabtly giving the ball to our opponents.

If we controlled the game even to an average level we’d be so much better but we are slapdash with the ball and reckless.
 
Buster15 said:
Agree with all of this.
The years of mismanagement is spot on. We can see that the clubs with the best management are the most successful.
And not just the best managers. But those in charge of actually running the football club. They have the best people in charge of each of the various functions including HR, Recruitment, Finance, Commercial, Business Strategy, Data Analysis and Infrastructure for example.
And then there is the Footballing side of the business.

Each of these has to operate in a coordinated structure aimed at being the very best run.
And the problems at OT prove that they certainly are not.
Click to expand...
Can add the pre season being focused on marketing vs football. We went to Norway, Scotland, every corner of USA traveling every day, then back to Manchester then Dublin... it takes its toll on the body. Pre season should be building fitness. This was horrible.
 
Pretty sure no manager in the league starts same XI every week, especially if that same XI doesn't perform. And they especially don't start players who play worst games of their lives two or three games in a row, or run the least of the 22 players on the pitch few games in a row.

I know we are in injury crisis now, but our manager thinks he can't start a game without certain players despite those players having so many bad games, I don't think I've seen it from top teams that some players start all the time except if they are not Messi or Ronaldo. Even Haaland is subbed off quite often very early, but not the likes of Bruno, Rashford, Antony, etc.

Also I am pretty sure no other serious manager in the league allow players to jog back or not track at all during the games. Our running stats confirm that we are always one of laziest teams in the league, and the manager who picks these players to play obviously allows that. Ole was the same.
 
Buster15 said:
Another good assessment although I am not that sure about managing expectations. The club don't seem to have any expectations and the supporters, in the main, are getting to be pretty realistic. Yes we demand the best but understand that this is not likely to come to fruition.
Click to expand...

This is what I mean, the owners seem to have no idea of what the expectations are from fans, or indeed sometimes of their staff except in terms of making money; that is quite clear for example in how they are now attempting to re-manage the ticketing system.
In football terms there is no one at owner level who understands, or perhaps wants to understand, (and so manage effectively) football expectations. The 'age' it took to appoint a Dof (and not perhaps most fans first choice,) to the latest, 'will they won't they' sell and the effect it has throughout the club. The value of the 'business asset' is all that counts to the owners, they will hang on until they get that value, regardless of what their inertia is doing to players and fans alike!
 
Buster15 said:
We have been out played this season by the likes of Brighton, Wolves and Tottenham. And despite spending a lot of money, we don't seem to be improving.
Brighton in particular have sold some of their players. And yet they were able to cut through our midfield and defence far too easily.
We have changed managers and coaches.
So what is it that other clubs are doing that United are not.
Is it fitness, nutrition, training coaching.
What is it that other clubs are doing so much better than United?
Click to expand...

I think it is simply down to the manager's and coaches we've hired. I think the coaches that have done well in the PL (De Zerbi, Emery, Pep, Klopp, Howe, Arteta) are the ones that have drilled their team with a very clear idea of how they want to play. And it's generally an effective way. Their football methods were clear before they had great teams at their disposal.

I think we've had coaches that have come at the wrong time in their career or have just had bad ideas. Apart from LVG and maybe Jose, hell maybe even Ole, they've drilled their teams but in a style of play that is ineffective or a bit outdated. Dull passing around at the back and no attacking that (LVG), too risk adverse (Jose) or too reliant on the counter (Ole). I think ETH isn't clear on what he wants to do and part of his issue is that he relies on the counter or balls in behind too much. He probably expected that we'd naturally dominate possession, as Ajax did before and after he came, but he's been caught out by the PL standard and he's no answer for some of what he faces.

The Glazers are being mentioned a lot. Over the long run they've not helped at all as they've hired poor choices on the football side and delegated decisions to people that had no idea about football. But, the club has spent a lot of money. ETH has been backed as well as you could expect at any club really. So in this case I don't blame them. And I don't think the sale of the club is something ETH or the players would concern themselves with to the extent they play like they are. To me that is just an excuse and passing the buck. They're two different matters.
 
Better owners, fewer injuries (except Chelsea), less outside pressure, etc
 
Yeah, it's really the owners. Their ambitions and ours don't match. If our 90s and 00s would have looked like West Ham's or Everton's, we'd be delighted being in United's current position, getting Champions League every other year and winning the odd cup, but we should be aiming to be compared with Real and Bayern not West Ham or Everton. The owners are doing the bare minimum to be profitable. This means we keep shifting players and managers with no vision or structure above them. That would be a hard task for any manager, even for the very best. This is why ETH would do better at Brighton than De Zerbi would do at United if he'd join tomorrow.
 
They're not working for clubs run and owned by the Glazers.
 
Well, the two clubs everyone's been praising this last year have done one thing we haven't: sign press resistant players. Brighton and Arsenal have built their teams around players of this ilk.

Meanwhile, we're buying Casemiro, Eriksen, Antony, Mount, etc. Players who are very weak on top of an already physically weak squad.
 
  • Working under good owners
  • Operating in a competent football structure
  • Signing hungry young players and developing them, not signing ‘instant fix’ old has beens in key positions.
  • Employing a modern style of play, and recruiting players capable of doing so
  • Giving a crap about winning and being the best they can be, not simply doing ‘just enough’. (Top 4 for the cash)
 
Maticmaker said:
This is what I mean, the owners seem to have no idea of what the expectations are from fans, or indeed sometimes of their staff except in terms of making money; that is quite clear for example in how they are now attempting to re-manage the ticketing system.
In football terms there is no one at owner level who understands, or perhaps wants to understand, (and so manage effectively) football expectations. The 'age' it took to appoint a Dof (and not perhaps most fans first choice,) to the latest, 'will they won't they' sell and the effect it has throughout the club. The value of the 'business asset' is all that counts to the owners, they will hang on until they get that value, regardless of what their inertia is doing to players and fans alike!
Click to expand...

Ok. Understand this. Thank you for your input.
 
pocco said:
I think it is simply down to the manager's and coaches we've hired. I think the coaches that have done well in the PL (De Zerbi, Emery, Pep, Klopp, Howe, Arteta) are the ones that have drilled their team with a very clear idea of how they want to play. And it's generally an effective way. Their football methods were clear before they had great teams at their disposal.

I think we've had coaches that have come at the wrong time in their career or have just had bad ideas. Apart from LVG and maybe Jose, hell maybe even Ole, they've drilled their teams but in a style of play that is ineffective or a bit outdated. Dull passing around at the back and no attacking that (LVG), too risk adverse (Jose) or too reliant on the counter (Ole). I think ETH isn't clear on what he wants to do and part of his issue is that he relies on the counter or balls in behind too much. He probably expected that we'd naturally dominate possession, as Ajax did before and after he came, but he's been caught out by the PL standard and he's no answer for some of what he faces.

The Glazers are being mentioned a lot. Over the long run they've not helped at all as they've hired poor choices on the football side and delegated decisions to people that had no idea about football. But, the club has spent a lot of money. ETH has been backed as well as you could expect at any club really. So in this case I don't blame them. And I don't think the sale of the club is something ETH or the players would concern themselves with to the extent they play like they are. To me that is just an excuse and passing the buck. They're two different matters.
Click to expand...

You are right that the Glazer's have funded EtH and the other managers reasonably ok.
And you are Spot On regarding them hiring inept and ineffective people.

There is no doubt that EtH is finding this job is really difficult and maybe he is struggling to be able to focus due to things like the Sancho issue. But I do think that he is clever enough to be able to cope with everything and get the players operating as a team.
 
Plant0x84 said:
  • Working under good owners
  • Operating in a competent football structure
  • Signing hungry young players and developing them, not signing ‘instant fix’ old has beens in key positions.
  • Employing a modern style of play, and recruiting players capable of doing so
  • Giving a crap about winning and being the best they can be, not simply doing ‘just enough’. (Top 4 for the cash)
Click to expand...

Absolutely right. You have covered it.
 
Amar__ said:
Pretty sure no manager in the league starts same XI every week, especially if that same XI doesn't perform. And they especially don't start players who play worst games of their lives two or three games in a row, or run the least of the 22 players on the pitch few games in a row.

I know we are in injury crisis now, but our manager thinks he can't start a game without certain players despite those players having so many bad games, I don't think I've seen it from top teams that some players start all the time except if they are not Messi or Ronaldo. Even Haaland is subbed off quite often very early, but not the likes of Bruno, Rashford, Antony, etc.

Also I am pretty sure no other serious manager in the league allow players to jog back or not track at all during the games. Our running stats confirm that we are always one of laziest teams in the league, and the manager who picks these players to play obviously allows that. Ole was the same.
Click to expand...

Exactly this.
 
The owners have a club in the Premier League. It's one of many assets their family own, including another sports team that they actually care about. But as long as we aren't relegated and the club are still attracting big sponsorship deals they don't have anything to worry about. They own a prestigious European soccer club. When your clique is filled with other wealthy individuals, that's more impressive than a new yacht. And it's an asset that will probably keep increasing in value as long as you're in the Premier League.

So when Woodward passes the CEO job to his mate Arnold, the owners don't really mind. "Just keep the money coming." And it is still coming, so they'll happily sit on a prestigious asset and remember they own it from time to time. But the CEO is clueless about football clubs - he's a banker like the CEO before him. That's okay though, because all he has to do is keep the owners content, which as we already know is a very low bar.

So the CEO has a DoF below him who, whilst experienced in other roles, is learning as he goes in his new job. Same goes for his Deputy, and his Technical Director. But again, the gravy train is still rolling and the owners are happy, so the CEO is also happy. So nobody sees a need to improve things - their bosses sure aren't telling them to do anything different.

That trickles down to the team. It's okay if you don't win anything at United - you can just work on your social media posts and branding. If the manager annoys you then just down tools - we won't react. In fact we'll probably just sack him and get another. Meanwhile, we'll keep twiddling our thumbs in the office making sure the money keeps coming in.

And the manager? Well, you're just plain fecked. Even if we hired you and you're somehow suitable for the job, which none of us can be sure about since we're not even sure we're right for our jobs, then get ready to do everything yourself. You'll need to identify transfer targets, you'll need to handle scouting requests, you'll need to decide what long term vision the squad build should be. All the while working with a mishmash of players bought by five other managers who had to do the same things.

Until someone takes over the club and uproots the entire operation nothing will change. There's too much rot set in from over a decade of disinterest and laziness.
 
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