Westminster Politics 2024-2029

[Jericholyte2]

How is it simple?

How does taxing unrealized capital gains work in reality in your scenario? Some guy buys £10 million worth of shares. In 1 year, for whatever reason, it 2xs and he has a tax burden of say, £4 million. He has to then liquidate some of his original position to pay that tax back, everyone has to do the same and all of a sudden there's a dip in the capital markets because everyone is liquidating to pay tax. All of a sudden the price is back down to £10 million.

"Simple" unrealized capital gains simply does not work. There has been modelling on this, the US IRS even looked into this and realized that this is only feasible if rather than the asset itself being taxed, it's all loans and derivatives that use the asset as collateral to be taxed. That way, it becomes a "high value loans tax". This then runs into problems of differentiating between the purpose of the underlying securitization. Are you going to tax someone who using their home as collateral for getting a mortgage/loan to buy another home? etc etc. There are people who are far bigger experts than you and I who have looked at this problem and found it to be extremely challenging.

You mouthing off saying that it's "not that difficult" doesn't change that reality. I've yet to see an actual solution proposed other than, "Yeah well just tax the super wealthy's assets" without it causing problems in all other corners of the financial system as well as hitting the middle class.

In your "not that difficult model", how would this tax unrealized capital gains tax work?

Setting myself up for a fall here, but there's the other side to that point though, in that people are able to use unrealised capital to buy things, like Musk and Twitter. Musk was originally looking to buy Twitter using Tesla shares and then also went to banks looking for loans using his Tesla shares as collateral.

So if unrealised capital can be used at collateral for purchases then there has to be some mechanism to tax them.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Setting myself up for a fall here, but there's the other side to that point though, in that people are able to use unrealised capital to buy things, like Musk and Twitter. Musk was originally looking to buy Twitter using Tesla shares and then also went to banks looking for loans using his Tesla shares as collateral.

So if unrealised capital can be used at collateral for purchases then there has to be some mechanism to tax them.

Yes, hence if you read my second paragraph about "high value loans tax", that's where the solution lies. The details have yet to be figured out.

 

[TwoSheds]

Setting myself up for a fall here, but there's the other side to that point though, in that people are able to use unrealised capital to buy things, like Musk and Twitter. Musk was originally looking to buy Twitter using Tesla shares and then also went to banks looking for loans using his Tesla shares as collateral.

So if unrealised capital can be used at collateral for purchases then there has to be some mechanism to tax them.

There is, you tax loans taken out against unrealised capital unless they are secured against your one main residence or one of a maximum of two cars. Something along those lines. And for companies as opposed to private individuals you tax any loan secured against unrealised capital on a sliding scale that increases with the company's revenue. The idea that it's cheaper for Apple to borrow money secured against the vast sums in their accounts in the Bahamas or wherever than to actually access that cash directly is just fecking stupid.

The reason it won't happen is because it is too difficult for a very average, beaten down government beholden to the same people who benefit from unrealised capital, to outsmart them or to go against them. It's not because it can't be done.

 

[Jericholyte2]

Someone's been on the sauce again. Anyone know any good defamation lawyers?

 

[Red in STL]

One of the big issues now in cooking is not the knowledge, its the cost. Foodbanks are actively asking people for stuff that can be microwaved like tins of spaghetti and beans, or not cooked at all, because firing up an oven becomes too costly, especially for people on card meters.

Lots of healthy food can be microwaved, and your're still talking about a minority of the population, the majority of people don't use foodbanks, attitudes and the use of a bit of common sense is what's needed

 

[Raven]

How is it simple?

How does taxing unrealized capital gains work in reality in your scenario? Some guy buys £10 million worth of shares. In 1 year, for whatever reason, it 2xs and he has a tax burden of say, £4 million. He has to then liquidate some of his original position to pay that tax back, everyone has to do the same and all of a sudden there's a dip in the capital markets because everyone is liquidating to pay tax. All of a sudden the price is back down to £10 million.

"Simple" unrealized capital gains simply does not work. There has been modelling on this, the US IRS even looked into this and realized that this is only feasible if rather than the asset itself being taxed, it's all loans and derivatives that use the asset as collateral to be taxed. That way, it becomes a "high value loans tax". This then runs into problems of differentiating between the purpose of the underlying securitization. Are you going to tax someone who using their home as collateral for getting a mortgage/loan to buy another home? etc etc. There are people who are far bigger experts than you and I who have looked at this problem and found it to be extremely challenging.

You mouthing off saying that it's "not that difficult" doesn't change that reality. I've yet to see an actual solution proposed other than, "Yeah well just tax the super wealthy's assets" without it causing problems in all other corners of the financial system as well as hitting the middle class.

In your "not that difficult model", how would this tax unrealized capital gains tax work?

Because if something can be valued, it can be taxed. Tax the mega-rich (say net worth north of 20M) 1% of their net worth every year until they are no longer mega-rich. Society doesn't have space for these leeches, it's high time we take back what is ours (the fruits of our labour).

 

[Paul the Wolf]

So in summary.

He's already managed to annoy the EU.
He's not going to do anything for the NHS until it reforms. To reform it because it is so inefficient, the best way would presumably be to fire everybody and start all over again?
He's released prisoners without proper rehabilitation or probation arrangements.
He did say there would be change, but didn't say it was the small change down the back of granny's sofa.

Other mission's we know won't work
Brexit will never work.
Smashing the gangs (which is not happening) instead of opening safe routes for refugees and asylum seekers and actually processing them.
Creating an energy company that isn't an energy producer.

He's only making plans for Nigel, He has his future in a British steel (or maybe not)

Can't wait for the budget.

And even more far-fetched thinks he's going to get re-elected.

 

[Red in STL]

Because if something can be valued, it can be taxed. Tax the mega-rich (say net worth north of 20M) 1% of their net worth every year until they are no longer mega-rich. Society doesn't have space for these leeches, it's high time we take back what is ours (the fruits of our labour).

Well that'd be the end of the PL for sure, and the country would lose a gigantic amount of it's tax income because those people you just targeted will leave

 

[nickm]

Because if something can be valued, it can be taxed. Tax the mega-rich (say net worth north of 20M) 1% of their net worth every year until they are no longer mega-rich. Society doesn't have space for these leeches, it's high time we take back what is ours (the fruits of our labour).

That’s great, tax assets into the ground, to the point they no longer can deliver tax revenue. Brilliant! Maybe we can all eat each other when the moneys run out and solve the overpopulation problem too.

 

[Buster15]

Some of these "lazy" poor people work 3 jobs. Other people don't have a kitchen big enough to cook properly in, sometimes they can't afford to use the shitty inefficient/broken oven/hob the landlord provided because of the cost of the gas bill, sometimes they just don't know how to plan or budget properly, other times they are too tired to walk because they're already unfit and unhealthy...

There are a lot of very good reasons why people are the way they are. It's not to say we couldn't all do better than we do, but more often than not what people need is help, whether thats from regulation, support, incentives, or whatever, not judgement.

You have called them lazy, not me. That was judgement.
And I don't doubt that there are always certain circumstances why some people are unfit.
But remember please that my initial post was related to a perfectly simple statement that the NHS will never be able to cope with the load if people don't take responsibility for their own health.

Health or being unhealthy is very often a vicious circle.
Poor diet can result in lack of energy.
Lack of energy can result in lack of proper exercise.
Lack of proper exercise can result in poor mobility and increased weight.
And so on.

 

[Raven]

That’s great, tax assets into the ground, to the point they no longer can deliver tax revenue. Brilliant! Maybe we can all eat each other when the moneys run out and solve the overpopulation problem too.

Yes, the assets will simply stop existing when the million/billionaires leave. Forgot about that.

Well that'd be the end of the PL for sure, and the country would lose a gigantic amount of it's tax income because those people you just targeted will leave

The end of the PL as we know it now anyway, that is a good point but are we not against the enormously inflated wages and fees being thrown around now?

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Because if something can be valued, it can be taxed. Tax the mega-rich (say net worth north of 20M) 1% of their net worth every year until they are no longer mega-rich. Society doesn't have space for these leeches, it's high time we take back what is ours (the fruits of our labour).

This is mental

Stripe owners would be fecked. Owe 1% of about 50 billion, but can’t actually sell their assets to pay the tax because it isn’t public. (And contractually illegal)

All this does is funnel all the enterprise to big conglomerates who can afford to write off their tax debt.

 

[nickm]

Yes, the assets will simply stop existing when the million/billionaires leave. Forgot about that.

The end of the PL as we know it now anyway, that is a good point but are we not against the enormously inflated wages and fees being thrown around now?

You said tax them til they were no longer rich, which implies draining them until the point it is no longer taxable.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Yes, the assets will simply stop existing when the million/billionaires leave. Forgot about that.

The end of the PL as we know it now anyway, that is a good point but are we not against the enormously inflated wages and fees being thrown around now?

I’m not sure if you’ve checked, but the worlds wealthiest companies main portfolio of assets isn’t physical, but digital.

Imagine the British government trying to asset seize google maps because google didn’t Sergei brin didn’t pay 1% of his net worth in taxes

 

[Raven]

This is mental

Stripe owners would be fecked. Owe 1% of about 50 billion, but can’t actually sell their assets to pay the tax because it isn’t public. (And contractually illegal)

All this does is funnel all the enterprise to big conglomerates who can afford to write off their tax debt.

Tax the conglomerates as well?

 

[Raven]

You said tax them til they were no longer rich, which implies draining them until the point it is no longer taxable.

The idea is that they have to sell their assets that they've scammed us out of for generations but especially since 2008.

 

[nickm]

This is mental

Stripe owners would be fecked. Owe 1% of about 50 billion, but can’t actually sell their assets to pay the tax because it isn’t public. (And contractually illegal)

All this does is funnel all the enterprise to big conglomerates who can afford to write off their tax debt.

Stripe employees would be screwed too, the ones with shares given as a reward for their investment of time and skill into the company.

 

[nickm]

The idea is that they have to sell their assets that they've scammed us out of for generations but especially since 2008.

To be fair I'd happily support taxing Liverpool FC into oblivion.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Stripe employees would be screwed too, the ones with shares given as a reward for their investment of time and skill into the company.

The entire UK options and derivatives market would be fecked because people would holding onto derivatives worth millions when their portfolio is only couple k

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Tax the conglomerates as well?

Do you know how mental you sound?

If people have to pay tax they need to liquidate assets, which means you need someone on the other side to pay to buy the asset.

If you’re taxing everyone to death then nobody is paying any taxes because they cannot actually liquidate because there’s no buyer on the other side.

I’d love to have whatever you’re on

 

[Red in STL]

Yes, the assets will simply stop existing when the million/billionaires leave. Forgot about that.

The end of the PL as we know it now anyway, that is a good point but are we not against the enormously inflated wages and fees being thrown around now?

Of course we are, but that is not something the PL can tackle, cap the wages and the best players will go elsewhere, and when the players go so does the TV money and sponsorship deals, and remember, before the PL United were generally shite, can you imagine the CAF in that scenario!

 

[Jericholyte2]

So in summary.

He's already managed to annoy the EU.
He's not going to do anything for the NHS until it reforms. To reform it because it is so inefficient, the best way would presumably be to fire everybody and start all over again?
He's released prisoners without proper rehabilitation or probation arrangements.
He did say there would be change, but didn't say it was the small change down the back of granny's sofa.

Other mission's we know won't work
Brexit will never work.
Smashing the gangs (which is not happening) instead of opening safe routes for refugees and asylum seekers and actually processing them.
Creating an energy company that isn't an energy producer.

He's only making plans for Nigel, He has his future in a British steel (or maybe not)

Can't wait for the budget.

And even more far-fetched thinks he's going to get re-elected.

I’m intrigued to hear your alternative plan for putting people into full prisons without having to release those already there…

Conveniently ignoring the fact that Sunak was pretty much begged to do the same thing by his own Party months before the election and refused to do so. Many even go so far to suggest this is why he chose the early election, so he could fob of the horrifically damaging image of TORIES releasing prisoners early.

 

[Raven]

Do you know how mental you sound?

If people have to pay tax they need to liquidate assets, which means you need someone on the other side to pay to buy the asset.

If you’re taxing everyone to death then nobody is paying any taxes because they cannot actually liquidate because there’s no buyer on the other side.

I’d love to have whatever you’re on

Yes, bringing down the price of important assets, such as housing and other properties.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I’m intrigued to hear your alternative plan for putting people into full prisons without having to release those already there…

Conveniently ignoring the fact that Sunak was pretty much begged to do the same thing by his own Party months before the election and refused to do so. Many even go so far to suggest this is why he chose the early election, so he could fob of the horrifically damaging image of TORIES releasing prisoners early.

I'm no fan of Sunak or the Tories.
Of course Sunak called the election for many reasons before the proverbial **** hit the fan. Not just on prisons.

Shouldn't the authorities in charge of released prisoners be prepared first?
Question is what happens when the next group of convicted people are imprisoned.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Yes, bringing down the price of important assets, such as housing and other properties.

The vast vast majority of the held assets are not in housing and properties but in equities

 

[Raven]

The vast vast majority of the held assets are not in housing and properties but in equities

And by taxing the mega rich (again, those with net worths of 20M+) will help get valuable assets back into the hands of the working class.

 

[nickm]

And by taxing the mega rich (again, those with net worths of 20M+) will help get valuable assets back into the hands of the working class.

A tax expert writes....

 

[Raven]

A tax expert writes....

What kind of "tax expert"?

Edit: Perhaps you should take a look at the top rates of tax since WW2.

 

[Sweet Square]

Whoops!

Update -

 

[nickm]

What kind of "tax expert"?

Edit: Perhaps you should take a look at the top rates of tax since WW2.

Tax lawyer. He's written at length about this stuff and cites a couple of specific reasons on the twitter thread I posted. His point is, lots of wealth taxes have been tried, they have invariably failed and been abolished. He suggests there are better alternatives.

 

[Raven]

Tax lawyer. He's written at length about this stuff and cites a couple of specific reasons on the twitter thread I posted.

I'll look into him but I fail to see how one tax lawyer of millions is going to have the 1 true answer.

 

[nickm]

I'll look into him but I fail to see how one tax lawyer of millions is going to have the 1 true answer.

I don't expect him to have the one true answer. I just expect him to have a better answer than yours.

 

[thisisnottaken1]

I hate how it looks likely that we’ll be getting American style healthcare.

Tax lawyer. He's written at length about this stuff and cites a couple of specific reasons on the twitter thread I posted. His point is, lots of wealth taxes have been tried, they have invariably failed and been abolished. He suggests there are better alternatives.

What alternatives are there?

 

[Raven]

I don't expect him to have the one true answer. I just expect him to have a better answer than yours.

But if his answer is wrong then, whilst it's undoubtedly better researched, it's no better than mine. There are plenty of experts out there that argue for wealth taxes as well by the way.

 

[Mogget]

I hate how it looks likely that we’ll be getting American style healthcare.

What alternatives are there?

Wait for the wealth to trickle down

Any day now

 

[The Purley King]

Update -

If I introduced something that had a material impact on commercials at my job without running any analysis I’d be fired on the spot.
This isn’t a criticism of current government, im sure the previous government did it too but how can this be allowed to happen ?
Please excuse my ignorance of how things actually work (I genuinely don’t know what checks and balances there are) but surely you can’t just say “right we’ll do that” without working out beforehand what will happen? Or do they just do “the thick of it”?

 

[Sweet Square]

 

[Smores]

Update -

Incredible really and just goes to show how this is Labour making a rushed political choice. They thought by doing something extremely unpopular and blaming the Tories for it somehow it would turn out to be a massive win for them.

The budget will be full of policy aimed purely at kicking the Tories record rather than trying to do what's best for the country. It worked for the Tories but the difference is their enacted policy was exactly what people expected of them.

 

[TwoSheds]

Incredible really and just goes to show how this is Labour making a rushed political choice. They thought by doing something extremely unpopular and blaming the Tories for it somehow it would turn out to be a massive win for them.

The budget will be full of policy aimed purely at kicking the Tories record rather than trying to do what's best for the country. It worked for the Tories but the difference is their enacted policy was exactly what people expected of them.

There's now actually no money left for fixing these kinds of feck ups though, not unless you disregard the arbitrary fiscal rules that have been put in place and actually focus on productivity and raising revenue. So it really doesn't need many big mistakes like this and they are double fecked.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

Read it all mate. My post was littered with disclaimers and qualifiers. There were two follow ups (no expectation that you saw them).

But what I’m suggesting… happens.

My best mate has a house in East London. They bought it 20 years ago. It was a 3 bed and they made it a 4 bed. They works as a nurse and family money helped them secure a deposit. The current mortgage is £1800 after they remortgaged.

They rent the rooms out at £300/400/500/month based on size. They could charge £600/800/1000 and be INUNDATED.

The house was purchased for £125,000. It’s now worth £725,000.

This kind of personal choice is happening and I admire it. It’s aspirational for me. It’s ok if it’s not for you.

I did read it but we're talking about 5.4 million rental homes not in the single digits. In practice it cannot work for the wider market for reasons aforementioned.

Yes, tenants have it so easy, they'll only be homeless if they miss a payment or 2

Not in the real word, it would be months before they could even be rendered homeless. Meanwhile the landlord has to pay the mortgage every month or risk getting into arrears and screwing up their credit score among other things.