Westminster Politics 2024-2029

SilentWitness said:
Agree that you need to teach kids about ChatGPT and AI but I don't trust them to be able to create a plan of how to educate people properly on how to use it. Like it or not, people will use it as a shortcut. Whether that's kids doing homework or adults with work or other aspects in life. For kids though it is crucial that they're taught not just to copy and paste but be able to critically analyse the data they're extracting from ChatGPT so they're still learning.
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That's similar to the calculator analogy though, and it'll probably have a similar outcome. Have mental arithmetic skills degraded since calculators were introduced? Certainly, but it doesn't matter in working life, and it does a bit outside of work.

It's probably going to be similar in a few years, but will be a skill that's needed and I agree should be used properly not as a direct replacement for knowledge. Someone wouldn't get very far without the knowledge though.
 
Balljy said:
That's similar to the calculator analogy though, and it'll probably have a similar outcome. Have mental arithmetic skills degraded since calculators were introduced? Certainly, but it doesn't matter in working life, and it does a bit outside of work.

It's probably going to be similar in a few years, but will be a skill that's needed and I agree should be used properly not as a direct replacement for knowledge. Someone wouldn't get very far without the knowledge though.
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For me it's more about making sure your brain is not lacking in cognitive skill. If people sat using ChatGPT to write every assignment and then spent all their time outside of that on TikTok, Instagram etc. then their cognitive skills would be appalling. It's about making sure the balance is right and that they are able to apply cognitive skill to ChatCPT rather than ChatCPT replacing it.
 
SilentWitness said:
For me it's more about making sure your brain is not lacking in cognitive skill. If people sat using ChatGPT to write every assignment and then spent all their time outside of that on TikTok, Instagram etc. then they're cognitive skills would be appalling. It's about making sure the balance is right and that they are able to apply cognitive skill to ChatCPT rather than ChatCPT replacing it.
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Oh definitely, it's just a tool and not a replacement. For now at least, if anyone did try to use it as a replacement they would get found out pretty quickly and as always the people who use it only as a tool and get the benefits of doing that will be the ones that succeed.
 
SilentWitness said:
For me it's more about making sure your brain is not lacking in cognitive skill. If people sat using ChatGPT to write every assignment and then spent all their time outside of that on TikTok, Instagram etc. then their cognitive skills would be appalling. It's about making sure the balance is right and that they are able to apply cognitive skill to ChatCPT rather than ChatCPT replacing it.
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See my post above, I think that’s a reasonable framework.
 
Sweet Square said:
Fair enough I guess. But cheating using ChatGPT is a thing, right ? Plus the calculator example seems a bit odd because if someone was doing math homework and they used a calculator then that would be kind of bad.
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Generative AI is being used by about 75% of university students (according to a variety of surveys done anonymously). I suspect that it is more.

The problem is that they have no training and no real understanding of how to use it as a research tool.

Assessments will have to change, as @Pexbo stated. You cannot game the system in the same way in unseen exams and oral exams.

But the problem arises when students treat AI as a panacea. It is a tool, but if you put garbage in, you will get garbage out.

And it can be really really useful for neurodivergent students or those with dyslexia or other learning difficulties.
 
Frosty said:
Generative AI is being used by about 75% of university students (according to a variety of surveys done anonymously). I suspect that it is more.

The problem is that they have no training and no real understanding of how to use it as a research tool.

Assessments will have to change, as @Pexbo stated. You cannot game the system in the same way in unseen exams and oral exams.

But the problem arises when students treat AI as a panacea. It is a tool, but if you put garbage in, you will get garbage out.

And it can be really really useful for neurodivergent students or those with dyslexia or other learning difficulties.
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Thanks. Hopefully my pessimism is misplaced and it produces some positives.
 
SilentWitness said:
For me it's more about making sure your brain is not lacking in cognitive skill. If people sat using ChatGPT to write every assignment and then spent all their time outside of that on TikTok, Instagram etc. then their cognitive skills would be appalling. It's about making sure the balance is right and that they are able to apply cognitive skill to ChatCPT rather than ChatCPT replacing it.
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When I was in school we were not allowed to use calculators until our secondary school years. I.e once we understood the basic concepts of arithmetic. Same should apply to the use generative AI.
 
An old school teacher of mine use to describe pupil's capabilities in terms of 'a toolbox' and their abilities in terms of those with a 'full toolbox'; could apply, comprehend, know, understand and use every tool correctly for the job in hand....some he claimed only had 'one tool' in their box and they tried to use it for everything.

I wonder if one day AI will become that 'one tool'?
 
Maticmaker said:
An old school teacher of mine use to describe pupil's capabilities in terms of 'a toolbox' and their abilities in terms of those with a 'full toolbox'; could apply, comprehend, know, understand and use every tool correctly for the job in hand....some he claimed only had 'one tool' in their box and they tried to use it for everything.

I wonder if one day AI will become that 'one tool'?
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AI is just the algorithm behind software applications. There will always be different applications for different use cases, so no.
 
Pexbo said:
AI is just the algorithm behind software applications. There will always be different applications for different use cases, so no.
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Therefore is it not that AI is the 'one tool'?

I suppose it depends on whether you consider an algorithm (any algorithm) a 'tool' in itself.
 
Maticmaker said:
Therefore is it not that AI is the 'one tool'?

I suppose it depends on whether you consider an algorithm (any algorithm) a 'tool' in itself.
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Algorithms are recipes not tools.
 
Pexbo said:
Algorithms are recipes not tools.
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Fair enough, accept it's a play on words... however I assume any chef would consider their 'recipes' are one of the 'tools' that they utilize in order to produce a specific dish??? ;)
 
Frosty said:
Generative AI is being used by about 75% of university students (according to a variety of surveys done anonymously). I suspect that it is more.

The problem is that they have no training and no real understanding of how to use it as a research tool.

Assessments will have to change, as @Pexbo stated. You cannot game the system in the same way in unseen exams and oral exams.

But the problem arises when students treat AI as a panacea. It is a tool, but if you put garbage in, you will get garbage out.

And it can be really really useful for neurodivergent students or those with dyslexia or other learning difficulties.
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They get caught though. Personally I don't see a problem with using generative AI so long as they are using it to demonstrate their own understanding. I suppose it will be somewhat worrying in the future if we have a generation of graduates entering the workforce who have used AI to achieve their qualifications without having any real understanding of them. However, with that being said I often think to myself 'how on Earth did people do university before computers and word processing software?' so it's probably more likely in 10-15 years' time people will think 'how on Earth did people do university without AI?'

I'm currently doing a Masters and they say it can be used on some assignments for structure etc., but not others. I personally don't use it because 1. I don't know how and 2. I would rather my writing style came across in my work, for better or for worse.
 
Has Reeves still fecked up the economy worse than Truss and Kwarteng or has that story died down now?
 
That'sHernandez said:
They get caught though. Personally I don't see a problem with using generative AI so long as they are using it to demonstrate their own understanding. I suppose it will be somewhat worrying in the future if we have a generation of graduates entering the workforce who have used AI to achieve their qualifications without having any real understanding of them. However, with that being said I often think to myself 'how on Earth did people do university before computers and word processing software?' so it's probably more likely in 10-15 years' time people will think 'how on Earth did people do university without AI?'

I'm currently doing a Masters and they say it can be used on some assignments for structure etc., but not others. I personally don't use it because 1. I don't know how and 2. I would rather my writing style came across in my work, for better or for worse.
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The problem with this is simple.

Using the internet and Word, you still have to find information, interpret it and write it all in your own words, demonstrating at least some passing understanding of the subject.

With AI, you can literally find a prompt online, input it and have a complete thesis without understanding a single word of what you are submitting.
 
Nogbadthebad said:
The problem with this is simple.

Using the internet and Word, you still have to find information, interpret it and write it all in your own words, demonstrating at least some passing understanding of the subject.

With AI, you can literally find a prompt online, input it and have a complete thesis without understanding a single word of what you are submitting.
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I'm not sure that's true. I had someone have a go at getting AI to talk about my undergrad dissertation from a few prompts and it was really underwhelming, lacking decent references and coherency. That's not to say it won't get there in the very near future but I think some of the concern is a little overblown; to use AI effectively you do have to have some understanding of the subject you're using it for.
 
That'sHernandez said:
I'm not sure that's true. I had someone have a go at getting AI to talk about my undergrad dissertation from a few prompts and it was really underwhelming, lacking decent references and coherency. That's not to say it won't get there in the very near future but I think some of the concern is a little overblown; to use AI effectively you do have to have some understanding of the subject you're using it for.
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The tech is already available now.

https://www.popsci.com/diy/how-to-use-google-deep-research/
 
Mr Pigeon said:
Has Reeves still fecked up the economy worse than Truss and Kwarteng or has that story died down now?
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Seems like it's died down a bit. I don't really understand how she can be held responsible for it just yet given it's not even a year since the Tories were kicked out. That's not a defence of her, though, as I think she's as odious as the rest of them.

I asked my friends earlier how many years of instability and stop-start economic growth will go by before a government finally acknowledges maybe Brexit was a bad idea?
 
Mr Pigeon said:
Has Reeves still fecked up the economy worse than Truss and Kwarteng or has that story died down now?
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Bizarrely, the Telegraph's rolling front page news of rising UK government bond yields disappeared onto page 482 when the market turned and they fell significantly, restoring some of the headroom.
 
That'sHernandez said:
They get caught though. Personally I don't see a problem with using generative AI so long as they are using it to demonstrate their own understanding. I suppose it will be somewhat worrying in the future if we have a generation of graduates entering the workforce who have used AI to achieve their qualifications without having any real understanding of them. However, with that being said I often think to myself 'how on Earth did people do university before computers and word processing software?' so it's probably more likely in 10-15 years' time people will think 'how on Earth did people do university without AI?'

I'm currently doing a Masters and they say it can be used on some assignments for structure etc., but not others. I personally don't use it because 1. I don't know how and 2. I would rather my writing style came across in my work, for better or for worse.
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I agree. Which is why assessments need changing first and foremost. It is also why AI training needs building in to every degree programme. When I went to uni 20 years ago we were trained on how to use and access physical resources in the library. Now that training focuses almost entirely on how to conduct research online. The same shift needs to happen here, especially as employers will need graduates who can use these programmes in the workplace.

Whilst it is possible to use AI to produce excellent research, most 18 year olds have no clue what they are doing so they use AI to produce middling work that they don't understand.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
Has Reeves still fecked up the economy worse than Truss and Kwarteng or has that story died down now?
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Time will tell, inflation came down 0.1% and it looks that the banks will keep the interest rates down.

Unemployment numbers are released on the 21st for December if we can keep it at 4.6% it'll be good. Still April is the big date.

The 30 year bonds (borrowing rate) is the highest in 27 years which isn't great.

We'll probably see gilts dropping as its over subscribed. Meaning more buys than sellers.

I'm looking at cutting my loses with UK energy (-0.3%) and moving into US markets with confidence being so low.
 

Suspended Labour MP Mike Amesbury pleads guilty to assault​

Judge adjourns case to 24 February and tells MP for Runcorn and Helsby he is leaving all sentencing options open

The MP for Runcorn and Helsby, Mike Amesbury, has pleaded guilty to assault.
Appearing at Chester magistrates court, Amesbury, who was suspended by the Labour party after an investigation, admitted the single charge of section 39 assault in relation to an incident after a night out in his constituency.

Police interviewed Amesbury, 55, after footage of the incident, which took place on Main Street in Frodsham, Cheshire, in the early hours of 26 October last year, was published by MailOnline.
The video, taken from a CCTV camera, shows Amesbury hitting his victim, 45-year-old Paul Fellows, in the face, knocking him to the ground.

He is also seen standing over the man, hitting him several more times on the head and shouting: “You won’t threaten me again, will you?”

Amesbury was re-elected in July with a majority of 14,696, almost 35% of the vote. He had previously represented Weaver Vale, which ceased to exist after boundary changes. He had won the seat from the Conservatives when he was first elected in 2017 with a majority of 3,928.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...our-mp-mike-amesbury-pleads-guilty-to-assault

E: An assault by beating conviction attracts a maximum sentence of 26-weeks custody (imprisonment) to a minimum sentence of a fine (equivalent to 150% of weekly income). The court takes into consideration the level of harm caused to the victim as well as the culpability of the accused.

You need a sentence of a year or more to be disqualified as an MP, so there will be a recall petition here.
 
Jippy said:
Not saying the UK economy is in great shape, but people know very little and draw from their own situation.

People nearly always think we're in a recession. Even last year in the US when the economy and stock market were flying, most thought everything was turning to shit.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/may/22/poll-economy-recession-biden
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Fair point. If I remember correctly people polled during the US election would say things like they are financial ok but the economy is doing very badly.

Although imo the US election highlights the potential pitfalls of how we currently measure a good or bad economy. The stock market did great under Biden but also the suicide rate peaked to its highest level since 1941. Yet we only tend we count one of these.
 
Sweet Square said:
Fair point. If I remember correctly people polled during the US election would say things like they are financial ok but the economy is doing very badly.

Although imo the US election highlights the potential pitfalls of how we currently measure a good or bad economy. The stock market did great under Biden but also the suicide rate peaked to its highest level since 1941. Yet we only tend we count one of these.
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I hadn't heard that. Interesting and bleak and seems across the board as well by gender and race. Access to prescription drugs (and firearms) being put forward as one major factor is pretty grim.
 

Badenoch says Britons not as rich as they think and refusing 'to live within our means'​

Badenoch accuses Labour of making mistakes, and says the last Conservative government made mistakes too, using the passages briefed in advance. See 9.36am and 11.45am.

Badenoch goes on to say the UK is not as rich as it thinks.

If we are going to turn our country around, we’re going to have to say some things that aren’t easy to hear.


Let’s start with our problems. We think we are rich, but we are living off the inheritance that previous generations left behind, a complacency that Britain will always be wealthy, and a refusal to live within our means.


We owe it to that next generation to leave an inheritance for them and not mortgage their future to make our lives more comfortable, and that will demand the kind of tough, soul-searching conversations we’re not having right now.


Energy supply is vulnerable, more vulnerable than ever, and our energy is far, far too expensive when it should be secure, cheap, plentiful.


Demography is destiny. People are having fewer children. Our society is getting older. We are living longer and needing more support towards the end of our lives. Look at productivity. A shrinking group of people are working to support an ever growing number of those who are unable or unwilling to work.


The information age means it is easier than ever for rogue governments to destabilise us and for rogue companies and countries to steal our know how.


And – no ifs, no buts – we simply cannot take all the millions of people who want to come here from elsewhere. Our country is our home. It is not a hotel. If people arriving don’t want to integrate into British culture, they shouldn’t be here.
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Jippy said:
I hadn't heard that. Interesting and bleak and seems across the board as well by gender and race. Access to prescription drugs (and firearms) being put forward as one major factor is pretty grim.
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I had no idea about the high level until last year. Tbh I would be surprised if most American know about it(The effectiveness of firearms plays a role as its like 90% of attempts with a gun end in death)

One of those very grim things that adds to the overall bad vibes people have with the economy.
 
A 'Labour' govt. targeting the disabled rather than make the rich pay a bit more. What's the fecking point anymore?
 
FireballXL5 said:
A 'Labour' govt. targeting the disabled rather than make the rich pay a bit more. What's the fecking point anymore?
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The point is that the Tories were always going to lose this election, so Starmer and Reeves were parachuted in to Labour to continue the neoliberal fight against the working classes.

Don’t worry, your choice next time will be to vote for this shit once again or welcome a far right Reform party backed by Elon Musk and you can enjoy the likes of Tommy Robinson and Laurence Fox being platformer by the BBC who recognise that hate won at the ballot and needs to be represented for balance.
 
From The Sun

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He says 'ironclad' almost as much as he says 'toolmaker'. Which in turn is almost as much as someone on here suggests he's ready to 'turn the dial', which apparently he's ready to do any day now, despite all of his actions suggesting he never will, and never actually wanted to.
 
decorativeed said:
He says 'ironclad' almost as much as he says 'toolmaker'. Which in turn is almost as much as someone on here suggests he's ready to 'turn the dial', which apparently he's ready to do any day now, despite all of his actions suggesting he never will, and never actually wanted to.
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Thank you for your reference (I assume to me) in your dispatches.

I actually said that with it's massive majority Labour ( with a size of majority that no party is ever likely to achieve again) has this one chance to 'move the dial'..... as it did post WW2.

It will however take a 2 term parliament to get there as there is no post war Marshall Plan (provided by the US) to boost our economy, we have to do that ourselves. If Labour (Starmer or whoever!) can't get the economy moving over the first term, it will not 'move the dial' in the second term.

Trump's ideals/proposals would seem to make that task even harder.
 
I for one am shocked that a government with Rachel "tougher than the Tories on welfare" Reeves in charge of economic policy would aim to be tougher than the Tories on welfare.

How could we possibly have seen this coming?
 
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