We're comfortably the third best team in the league

I honestly think we’re Sancho and a quality out and out defensive midfielder that has lots of stamina and positional sense away from challenging for the title.

Rashford and Martial will almost certainly both end up with 20 goals this season as they’re both on 19 and could realistically both hit 25 goals, when was the last time we had 2 players hit 25 goals in a season ?

Fernandes and Pogba could create a great partnership and if they do then that is as good as any midfield duo in world football, a quality defensive midfielder (Matic unfortunately doesn’t have the stamina to do it for 90 minutes game after game anymore) to do all the dirty work so Fernandes and Pogba can do their thing will make a massive difference.

Despite what some say we don’t have a bad defence at all and in fact quite the opposite, we have one of the best defences in the league which will only get better now it’s a settled first choice four although I worry about the lack of pace through the middle which is why I think Bailly if he can stay fit or Tuanzebe if he kicks on would be a better partner for Maguire.

Wan-Bissaka and Shaw are very good full backs who can both get better and we’ve got Dalot, Laird, Williams and Devine in reserve so we’re a lot better stocked at full back that it probably looks. Even though De Gea has looked shaky for a year or so we’ve got the best English keeper in Henderson to come back as well as arguably the best reserve keeper in the league in Romero.

I think we’re definitely right now the third best team in the league even if the table doesn’t show it, I’ve always believed that the table doesn’t lie but I don’t think Liverpool are 23 points better than City and much like the season when City ran away with the league there’s been a lot of luck involved for such a commanding lead.
 
I think with a couple of additions, this is a team that will win silverware.
 
On top form/ability we are right up there, we can go toe to toe with Liverpool/City.

It's just our consistency through the season that's been lacking, beat Chelsea/City one week then draw/lose to the lower teams.

If we can get our top level 8/10 then we will be sitting much higher.
 
SilentWitness said:
You've beaten City three times this season too, are you better than them? Are Watford on par with Liverpool because they have won one and lost one against them this season?
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Well table never lies head to head are no measure to gauge overall quality of the teams as far as league is concerned but season isn't finished yet lot to play for .
 
gajender said:
Well table never lies head to head are no measure to gauge overall quality of the teams as far as league is concerned but season isn't finished yet lot to play for .
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I think there is a definite argument to say United are better than Chelsea but I think that reducing arguments to simply "we've beaten them this season" is silly and you need to look at all factors because I don't think anyone would say that United are better than City despite them losing to you multiple times this season.
 
SilentWitness said:
You've beaten City three times this season too, are you better than them? Are Watford on par with Liverpool because they have won one and lost one against them this season?
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And what makes Chelsea better than us? literally the only player from their team i'd take is Kante and Rudiger in our firsts.

We've beaten them comfortably home and away. Think it's fair to say we are better just less consistent due to injuries.
 
I believe there will be far fewer points between 1st and 4th places next season.

As for United if, as seems to be the case, last nights XI is deemed to be our current strongest team, then they've only played one game together and looked impressive doing so. We will get stronger even without a signing this summer, but if we make the right 1 or 2 then I see no reason why we shouldn't be 20 points better off next season.
 
3rd best team in a poor League isn’t good enough for United. There are signs of progress from the dark days of the last 12 months, but let’s not get carried away. I can’t celebrate being a bit better than Wolves
 
We've been shit out of luck when it comes to injuries. Key players have missed substantial periods of time this season. We've effectively played 60% of the season without a creative outlet. You apply Pogba's injury to literally any other player in the squad up until we signed Bruno, and we would be substantially better off than we are now.

There was a gaping hole in our puzzle, and now we've found the missing piece. As things stand I would have little hesitation in placing us in 3rd.
 
SilentWitness said:
I think there is a definite argument to say United are better than Chelsea but I think that reducing arguments to simply "we've beaten them this season" is silly and you need to look at all factors because I don't think anyone would say that United are better than City despite them losing to you multiple times this season.
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Most importantly, the United players will feel that they are a better team than Chelsea having beaten them quite comfortably 3 times. However its largely a redundant point. If we ended up playing Chelsea again in the FA Cup this season it would be a match we could win or lose, though United would be favourites at a neutral venue for sure, and the team would be confident of beating them because of those past results.
 
DuruttiColumn said:
3rd best team in a poor League isn’t good enough for United. There are signs of progress from the dark days of the last 12 months, but let’s not get carried away. I can’t celebrate being a bit better than Wolves
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We are celebrating improvement, not being a 'bit better than Wolves'. We can't undo a poor first half of the season, and we all know that there were circumstances that contributed to that.
 
Adam-Utd said:
And what makes Chelsea better than us? literally the only player from their team i'd take is Kante and Rudiger in our firsts.

We've beaten them comfortably home and away. Think it's fair to say we are better just less consistent due to injuries.
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As above, I think there is an argument either way to saying United are better than Chelsea or Chelsea are better than United but reducing arguments to just "we've beaten them multiple times" is silly.

Isn't a team more than just the first 11 and the whole squad though? As pointed out before, Chelsea were 5 points ahead of of you at the start of January and in 2020 I believe they are 2 points worse off with the game in hand tonight (I suspect they will lose but it still remains). The introduction of Bruno has obviously helped you hugely and now the return of both Pogba and Rashford will too, but how are we to know that Werner or Ziyech won't make the same impact when they join? At the moment Chelsea are ahead in the table and on balance their squad has coped with the season better just slightly. Without Pogba and Bruno you really struggled for creativity and it's daft for the forum to omitt that when assessing this. 11 vs 11 you may edge it but that doesn't constitute who is a better team as you don't play Chelsea every week. The best teams do what Liverpool do and beat everyone and anyone.

I don't think it matters what players you'd take from a team and what players they'd take from yours. If a team performs well as a group and structure then it works. I don't think you'd have taken many players from Leicesters title winning side either yet they still won the league by an actual comfortable margin of 10 points.
 
Way too premature especially given the transfer work Chelsea have already done this window and previous.

We had a great game yesterday but I hate to burst a bubble here that doesn’t entitle is to being 3rd best in the league.

I do think our first XI is stronger than Wolves, Leicester and I’d argue the current Chelsea side (sans Werner and Ziyech). But it’s not clear cut.
 
Pagh Wraith said:
Using StatsBomb's numbers, which are way more accurate, you get 51.6 - 29.3 (Chelsea, game in hand) vs 48.3 - 29.9 (United). Inside the box opportunities is another stat that is a really good indicator for true strength. Chelsea are a net +145 compared to United's +39 (Liverpool +149, City +216). Most importantly they are clearly rated the superior team by the betting markets. If they were to meet on a neutral pitch today, Chelsea would be favourites again (by about a quarter of a goal).

The notion that United are the better side is really exclusive to this forum which is bound to be biased towards United.
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Haven't Utd beaten Chelsea at least three times this season already? What does that say about the methodology of the betting markets?
 
We'll have to see next season. The 2nd half of this season bodes well for it though. We struggled against the inferior teams and have one of the best records against the top 6 so if we tie that together then we'll be grand.
 
United have been very, very lucky that so many other teams have been so bad this season. A fully fit Chelsea squad would be an interesting thing to see, Spurs with Lo Celso and Bergwijn acclimatised and Son and Kane fully fit would be interesting to see, Leicester have dropped off but they were on fire.

United are the form team outside the top 2 though for sure. Another season with Pogba, properly planning for his replacement, with the addition of Sancho? Be still my beating heart.
 
Stacks said:
I got a bad feeling. Been burned too much
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Though it could all be paper talk but it seems we have put in way too much effort in this deal to allow it to slip through , we might overpay in wages and transfer fees if we have to but I am quietly confident we will get this over the line.
 
Saying the table doesn't lie normally holds true but in this case it doesn't. We've only had our strongest team available for two games all season.

We are clearly better than Leicester. They fell apart after Ndidi got injured, I can only imagine what they'd be like if Vardy and Maddison also missed a considerable part of the season. We're also better than Chelsea atm but with Werner and Ziyech, that could change things.

I agree with the OP that right now we are comfortably the third best team but that might not be the case next season.
 
Judas said:
Bit premature for me this. See how the season finishes.
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Its definitely premature. One poor result and the pitchforks will be out again, followed immediately by a spate of transfer fantasies about which 5 players we need top sign in the summer.
 
If we add a right winger to this squad we are well within range to become a really solid unit. Still think we are a CB short on getting anywhere with this.
 
Utdstar01 said:
We'll have to see next season. The 2nd half of this season bodes well for it though. We struggled against the inferior teams and have one of the best records against the top 6 so if we tie that together then we'll be grand.
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Yeah, 13 unbeaten now and the team has evolved nicely throughout the season.
This reminds me of when we finished second when Liverpool were clearly the 2nd best side in the league but they only signed VVD in January.
 
SilentWitness said:
You look much better with Bruno so who is to say that Chelsea don't look much better when they add Ziyech/Werner? As a neutral I don't think there's much between you both. You probably edge it at the moment considering your 'form' but it's fairly evenly matched. You both have fantastic youth prospects, are seemingly making the correct signings to fine tune your squads, getting rid of the 'deadwood' in each etc. If you make smart signings in the summer or get someone like Sancho then that will put you on another level.

The worry for you is that if Bruno/Pogba get injured you'll struggle like feck creatively which you did before.

EDIT: Another reason that this argument is based on form - you were 11 points from the relegation zone toward the end of January and 14 points from 3rd! That shows how a) Influential Bruno has been and b) How much of a cliff Leicester have fallen off as you're now 22 from the relegation zone and 6 points from 3rd.

Wolves actually beat you in terms of the form table for 2020 too. You're 4th with 18 points and they're 3rd with 19 points. So yeah, it's not 'comfortable' at all.
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I agree, there are arguments for either view, not a lot in it and it mat change with a swing in form or injuries. Given the last seven seasons, we are certainly not in a position to boast after 13 unbeaten games. We remember the 12 game run after Solskjær came, and what happened later.

Notwithstanding that, I enjoy and fancy the arguments for seeing this run as more representative for our quality. We have seen performances as well as results improve gradually ever since march 2019, and performances ever since february 2018 if we exclude the Honeymoon love-in.
Looking behind the results, we shipped out a few ‘supposed key players’, replaced them with kids and let fairly young players get the responsibility of being key players, sustained injuries to our most important players. Bruno was a revalation, but also a catalyst for improvements that already had been increasingly visible for those looking closely at the games.

Looking a year back, Chelsea and us seemed in similar situation, and we are close to neck and neck in the tables, Chelsea a good step ahead if they can emulate our performances against City. We both are in the final teams in the FA cup and we are also in the Europa league, while Chelsea is as good as out of the CL. Not much in it. Head to head, we’ve beaten Chelsea 4-0 home and 2-0 away - impressive results between equals! The counter-argument to that is that United have been brilliant results-wise against the better teams for more than a year under Solskjær, so that’s nothing new - the reason Chelsea are ahead is that they have been similarly better at consistently beating weaker opposition - or United have been worse. That’s why it is interesting to note that since December 19 United have grown increasingly better at getting ‘the expected points’, winning at home and drawing or winning away. This started without Bruno and Pogba, so it points toward a team development, but it increased dramatically with Bruno and looks even better with Pogba, pointing towards a sound plan A. All this makes me realisticly optimistic that what we are now seeing is a new level, more than a stint of good form.
Of course, form will fluctuate even in the future, but if I’m going to rate the teams today based on current general quality, I’m going to go with United on 3rd, ahead of Chelsea and Wolves. Opinions.
 
If we are comfortably the third best team league and are lying in fifth place, on goal difference, then that suggests there is an issue of negligence with how we are being run.
 
I don't think we can say that before we witness a few more games. I'm also a little hesitant about coming to that conclusion with these behind the door games. It's such a low pressure, lower intensity environment. I think we'll see players like Sterling and Martial who are perhaps seen as being a little mentally weaker or more effected by crowd abuse finishing really strongly without the pressure of fans on their backs. Hence this end of season might not be representative of how teams and players perform in a normal environment.
 
padzilla said:
If we are comfortably the third best team league and are lying in fifth place, on goal difference, then that suggests there is an issue of negligence with how we are being run.
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Or teams evolve as the season goes on?
 
Bondi77 said:
I reckon there is not much between us,Chelsea,Wolves and Leicester.
Wolves may have the lesser names but I think they are the more cohesive unit.
We probably have the best team on paper but the game is not played on paper and Chelsea would not be far behind and Leicester are a tight unit with probably the best striker out of the quartet.
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Seriously? We are miles ahead of wolves and Leicester, yes table says otherwise and I accept that but I'm more than confident the league table will reflect our superiority over next couple of seasons.

As for chelsea, I think we are easily better, look at the head to head this season if you have doubts. We have beaten them twice at Stamford bridge though I accept they are making good moves in transfer market.

The more interesting question i feel is City. This is a crunch window for them. Recent signings haven't settled, Silva gone this summer, huge loss and Sane likely not too far behind. Aguero also om decline and now has serious injury. Kompany still hasn't been replaced and Fernandinho is coming to the end. For all the money Pep has spent, his best players are still the ones that were already there when he arrived. Let's see how far ahead of Chelsea they are tonight!

I think we are closer to them than people realise.

Pool still well ahead but can they manage circa 100 points three seasons in a row?
 
If we sign Sancho we could finish 5th next year, but in reality be the 2nd best team in the league in our minds.
 
iHicksy said:
I don't think we can say that before we witness a few more games. I'm also a little hesitant about coming to that conclusion with these behind the door games. It's such a low pressure, lower intensity environment. I think we'll see players like Sterling and Martial who are perhaps seen as being a little mentally weaker or more effected by crowd abuse finishing really strongly without the pressure of fans on their backs. Hence this end of season might not be representative of how teams and players perform in a normal environment.
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Interesting point in fairness.
 
SilentWitness said:
As above, I think there is an argument either way to saying United are better than Chelsea or Chelsea are better than United but reducing arguments to just "we've beaten them multiple times" is silly.

Isn't a team more than just the first 11 and the whole squad though? As pointed out before, Chelsea were 5 points ahead of of you at the start of January and in 2020 I believe they are 2 points worse off with the game in hand tonight (I suspect they will lose but it still remains). The introduction of Bruno has obviously helped you hugely and now the return of both Pogba and Rashford will too, but how are we to know that Werner or Ziyech won't make the same impact when they join? At the moment Chelsea are ahead in the table and on balance their squad has coped with the season better just slightly. Without Pogba and Bruno you really struggled for creativity and it's daft for the forum to omitt that when assessing this. 11 vs 11 you may edge it but that doesn't constitute who is a better team as you don't play Chelsea every week. The best teams do what Liverpool do and beat everyone and anyone.

I don't think it matters what players you'd take from a team and what players they'd take from yours. If a team performs well as a group and structure then it works. I don't think you'd have taken many players from Leicesters title winning side either yet they still won the league by an actual comfortable margin of 10 points.
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There's nothing silly in that statement imo. We've beaten them 3 times in a row, 2 of those on Stamford Bridge, scoring 8 in the process and conceding once.
 
Nah. I like the positivity but this is a bit much. We have a shout at being 3rd best, but not "comfortably". Wait and see if we have the fortitude to finish the season strongly instead of falling at the first hurdle and giving up. It's one thing having top players, but they'll need the consistency and the mentality to snuff out the remaining teams we got.

Chelsea have already made some excellent signings, and they're still ahead of us despite this being Lampard's first season and them having a transfer ban. We need to catch up in both table and the transfer market.
 
Mihai said:
There's nothing silly in that statement imo. We've beaten them 3 times in a row, 2 of those on Stamford Bridge, scoring 8 in the process and conceding once.
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It is silly to reduce an argument of being comfortably the third best team in the league (higher than teams that are above you in the league) due to you beating them three times.

By that same metric you're better than City too then since you've beaten them 3 times, 2 of those at the Etihad, scoring 5 in the process and conceding one. If you think that then good on you but you're daft.
 
Wetin fit be de main reason you say dis?
If people talk pogba karamapim tok bruno be the only reason then dem must not call the Manchester third rum slip teams. Football tim more den two players.
 
Moods might change if we have a poor result against an in form Brighton team.

It is quite a bold statement saying we are the third best team in the Premier League, I'm not as bullish about it as other people. We have certainly caught up as we have vastly improved over the season, but there isn't enough evidence yet to suggest we are in top 3 teams. Leicester and Wolves have somewhat over achieved but there is no doubt that they have far more settled teams than us if they don't have the individual talent we have. People seem to underestimate Chelsea, they might have had a transfer ban and lost Hazard but they still had a settled team with talented experienced players like Alonso, Azpilequeta, Rudiger, Kante, Kovacic, Willian, Pedro, Giroud so it is no surprise that they have been ahead of us for most of the year. I know we beat them in head to heads but I think that was more down to our team being a good counter to their game plan. I think at the end of the season, United, Chelsea, Leicester and Wolves will be very tight, and as they all play each other on the final day, I wouldn't be surprised if it goes down to the wire.
 
Tarrou said:
we're not comfortably the 3rd best IMO, or we wouldn't be where we are

it's pretty close between Chelsea and us, and I'd say Wolves and Leicester are in the mix too
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I believe that Wolves are an under-rated team and may not have big stars to catch attention, but are effective.
 
We are dangerously close to "next year will be our year" levels of giddiness that we mercilessly slagged off Liverpool fans over.
 
padzilla said:
We are dangerously close to "next year will be our year" levels of giddiness that we mercilessly slagged off Liverpool fans over.
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No, I think most fans who understand what is happening do not expect a title challenge next year. I haven't heard that many fans even say we will win the league next season.

The aim for next season is play good football all season and be competitive in the league.
 
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