Well, the penalty...?

We're just going to say the same thing over and over again. I think the fact Mark Lawrenson and Lee Dixon agreed with me should at least count in my favour. If you can't trust their expert opinion, who's can you trust?

Plechazunga said:
He's not, he's dropping, the ball's gone and he knows it the moment he spoons it.
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I'll concede this point. In fact, I think he knows he's going down a second before he even touches the ball. I just think it's irrelevant.
 
Rooney did almost exactly what Eduardo did last week. i.e. expected the contact and went down.

The difference was that Boruc got out the way whilst Almunia obliged and went through Rooney.

A clear penalty for me.

But these incidents do highlight the grey area between cheating, going down expecting contact, self preservation and such.

Edit: I also thought that Rooney's was more of a 'dive' than Raul for Real, who was clearly tripped. But the paper reports I've read seem to be crying diving foreigner at Raul.
 
Spoony said:
Obstruction.
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If it impedes a player yes....if the player simply hurdles the player and continues then there is no problem.

Not sure you can book Almunia and Rooney Plech....what would you be booking Almunia for?
 
MikeUpNorth said:
We're just going to say the same thing over and over again. I think the fact Mark Lawrenson and Lee Dixon agreed with me should at least count in my favour. If you can't trust their expert opinion, who's can you trust?



I'll concede this point. In fact, I think he knows he's going down a second before he even touches the ball. I just think it's irrelevant.
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How can it be irrelevant Mike....that means his going down is nothing to do with Almunia.
 
Marching said:
How can it be irrelevant Mike....that means his going down is nothing to do with Almunia.
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Not at all. He knows he's going down whether Almunia catches him or not. But Almunia does touch him, therefore it's a penalty. If Almunia had avoided him Wayne would still have gone down, and it would be a yellow card for diving and a freekick to Arsenal.
 
The way I read it, Almunia fouls Rooney as he is just starting the process of 'diving'. And to me, that's a penalty.
 
Marching said:
Not sure you can book Almunia and Rooney Plech....what would you be booking Almunia for?
Click to expand...

Yeah I was probably wrong about that

MikeUpNorth said:
I'll concede this point. In fact, I think he knows he's going down a second before he even touches the ball. I just think it's irrelevant.
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To me that's entirely relevant... though I'm no longer so sure it's the case...

F-Red said:
He's stretching for the ball, the trailing leg would always have that kind of action & wouldn't be upright.

The photo used is a poor one, the best angle to judge is behind Rooney.
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It's not just that it's not upright, it's that it starts to trail along the ground in a way that means he has to go down, he could never continue running. You can see it better here:

angaki.gif


Although, seeing it from that angle, you cnuts might be right, the falling over and getting cleaned out are virtually simultaneous.

(In my personal interpretation of the law which no-one else shares, I'd still not give a pen because the ball's gone so the 'foul' is not affecting the course of the game, and isn't dangerous play. My argument has even more force now we no longer abide by the stupid FA stipulations on 'contact'.)
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Not at all. He knows he's going down whether Almunia catches him or not. But Almunia does touch him, therefore it's a penalty. If Almunia had avoided him Wayne would still have gone down, and it would be a yellow card for diving and a freekick to Arsenal.
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Tricky one IMO...as he's going down anyway then Almunia didn't bring him down which is what the penalty was for.
 
Plechazunga said:
(In my personal interpretation of the law which no-one else shares, I'd still not give a pen because the ball's gone so the 'foul' is not affecting the course of the game, and isn't dangerous play. My argument has even more force now we no longer abide by the stupid FA stipulations on 'contact'.)
Click to expand...

Your personal interpretation of the law is basical wrong.

That's probably why no one else share it with you.
 
Marching said:
Tricky one IMO...as he's going down anyway then Almunia didn't bring him down which is what the penalty was for.
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It's a penalty for me because Rooney couldn't have stayed on his feet even if he had wanted to. And as he hadn't really 'dived' by the time he was caught, it's a penalty.
 
Marching said:
Tricky one IMO...as he's going down anyway then Almunia didn't bring him down which is what the penalty was for.
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Almunia made the decision easy for the ref. Almunia's foul made everything else irrelevant.

Almunia took down Rooney, whatever way people want to look at it. Hence a foul and a penalty.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Not at all. He knows he's going down whether Almunia catches him or not. But Almunia does touch him, therefore it's a penalty. If Almunia had avoided him Wayne would still have gone down, and it would be a yellow card for diving and a freekick to Arsenal.
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Okay, what about if a player blatantly dives... before the ref has time to blow up for a free-kick, another attacker gets hold of it, and this time he is scythed down. Penalty?
 
He sees Almunia coming out, and knows he's going to take a hit if he touches the ball. As soon as he does he looks for the contact. The fact is, Almunia's been stupid enough to do it, so it looks a peno in real time.

With the benefit of slow-mo and different angles I'd say it's probably technically not a penalty as he's falling into the contact knowingly, but Almunia queers the dice by racing out and smashing into him, and gives the ref an easy decision to make.
 
Plechazunga said:
angaki.gif


Although, seeing it from that angle, you cnuts might be right, the falling over and getting cleaned out are virtually simultaneous.
Click to expand...

It's not his trailing leg which gets taken out, which would disprove the theory further that it was a dive. Playing for a foul would be a more appropriate description, but when Almunia commits himself, its up to the keeper to take the ball.

Now with the benefit of replays and the like, people would start to pick out points (in split second frames) as we've seen already in this thread. Given that in real time Mike Dean called the decision, nearly every pundit (including the most bitter ABUs) have agreed with his decision.

The most decisive point for me is that Wenger didn't even try to debate the Rooney penalty, but focus on why he wasn't awarded one for the Fletcher tackle (legitimate call from Wenger as i feel it was a penalty).
 
Marching said:
How can it be irrelevant Mike....that means his going down is nothing to do with Almunia.
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Absolutely, which is why I said much earlier had Almunia managed to not clatter into him it would have ended up exactly the same as Eduardo's

There's absolutely no doubt at all that Rooney is dropping his left side as he goes forward before getting hit. If you look closely you can see his left foot going underneath him as he starts to do that and his left upper leg starts to fall away too (which also means its not stuck in the fking mud as some idiots have mentioned !!)

Thing is Plech you cant argue its not a pen due to the speed of it all and don't forget the ref does'nt have all this time to decide. He made the right call imo and its a clear penalty

However as an 'honest player' that does get Rooney off the hook as its exactly the same as Eduardo's, just that 'Thickmunia' got him off the hook

I find it a bit ridiculous really considering Rooney - he is one of the greatest players in the world today but actually his history of diving and getting decisions cos of it ranks up in the very highest of the lot.

Thats another compelling factor here - its not as if this is the first time he's tried this is it unless he's prone to getting his feet 'stuck in the mud' and 'falling over'
 
Like Cnut says, everything else is irrelevent as Alumina does "hit" Rooney. If he doesnt, then no penalty, but he does, and he totally wipes him out.

Rooney is stretching for the ball. You can see that in his stance during the screenshot, and by the way his eyes are firmly on the ball.
 
CnutOfAllCnuts said:
Your personal interpretation of the law is basical wrong.

That's probably why no one else share it with you.
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Yeah... it is 'wrong' in the sense that it's not the actual law as it stands. But it's right in that it should be, as it comes closer to nailing down what the essence of a foul is, and conforms better with people's (and refs') common-sense way of looking at the game.

Your mum has her own interpretation of the public indecency laws...

TheReligion said:
Almunia did bring him down.

Why can't some of you see what is it front of your eyes?

Bloody hell!
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As I keep explaining, most of us can see that Almunia clattered him. The question is whether Rooney had already started diving, in which case that would be the prior transgression.
 
Jopub said:
Absolutely, which is why I said much earlier had Almunia managed to not clatter into him it would have ended up exactly the same as Eduardo's

There's absolutely no doubt at all that Rooney is dropping his left side as he goes forward before getting hit. If you look closely you can see his left foot going underneath him as he starts to do that and his left upper leg starts to fall away too (which also means its not stuck in the fking mud as some idiots have mentioned !!)

Thing is Plech you cant argue its not a pen due to the speed of it all and don't forget the ref does'nt have all this time to decide. He made the right call imo and its a clear penalty

However as an 'honest player' that does get Rooney off the hook as its exactly the same as Eduardo's, just that 'Thickmunia' got him off the hook

I find it a bit ridiculous really considering Rooney - he is one of the greatest players in the world today but actually his history of diving and getting decisions cos of it ranks up in the very highest of the lot.

Thats another compelling factor here - its not as if this is the first time he's tried this is it unless he's prone to getting his feet 'stuck in the mud' and 'falling over'
Click to expand...

:lol:

Go on then... explain that one
 
Plechazunga said:
Yeah... it is 'wrong' in the sense that it's not the actual law as it stands. But it's right in that it should be, as it comes closer to nailing down what the essence of a foul is, and conforms better with people's (and refs') common-sense way of looking at the game.
Click to expand...

Where the ball is is totally irrelevant whether it is a foul or not, and rightly so.
 
Maybe eboue tripped over a long strand of grass or maybe someone shouted out sniper just before he went down? :nervous:
 
Plechazunga said:
Yeah... it is 'wrong' in the sense that it's not the actual law as it stands. But it's right in that it should be, as it comes closer to nailing down what the essence of a foul is, and conforms better with people's (and refs') common-sense way of looking at the game.

Your mum has her own interpretation of the public indecency laws...



As I keep explaining, most of us can see that Almunia clattered him. The question is whether Rooney had already started diving, in which case that would be the prior transgression.
Click to expand...

The question has been answered for you by numerous screenshots and gifs.

You interpret Rooney stretching for the ball as a dive.

Everyone else interprets it as him stretching for the ball...

As said before, if you are still unsure, look where Rooneys eyes are fixed. He doesnt even know where Alumina is, he is simply putting his foot in for the ball.
 
Brophs said:
He sees Almunia coming out, and knows he's going to take a hit if he touches the ball. As soon as he does he looks for the contact. The fact is, Almunia's been stupid enough to do it, so it looks a peno in real time.

With the benefit of slow-mo and different angles I'd say it's probably technically not a penalty as he's falling into the contact knowingly, but Almunia queers the dice by racing out and smashing into him, and gives the ref an easy decision to make.
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This is correct I reckon

F-Red said:
It's not his trailing leg which gets taken out, which would disprove the theory further that it was a dive. Playing for a foul would be a more appropriate description, but when Almunia commits himself, its up to the keeper to take the ball.
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Yeah, there's a very fine line between playing for a foul and diving... that's why this one's hard to call

Now with the benefit of replays and the like, people would start to pick out points (in split second frames) as we've seen already in this thread. Given that in real time Mike Dean called the decision, nearly every pundit (including the most bitter ABUs) have agreed with his decision.
Click to expand...


Jopub said:
Thing is Plech you cant argue its not a pen due to the speed of it all and don't forget the ref does'nt have all this time to decide. He made the right call imo and its a clear penalty
Click to expand...


I'm not blaming the ref or saying for a moment it wasn't an exceptionally tough call. Whether he got it right is hard to say even with replays and stills.
 
Plechazunga said:
The question is whether Rooney had already started diving, in which case that would be the prior transgression.
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Only Rooney can say whether he had.

And unless we bring in mind-reading as a requirement for refs, it is again totally irrelevant.

Rooney was still on his feet when he got clattered by the goalie.
 
Plechazunga said:
Yeah, there's a very fine line between playing for a foul and diving... that's why this one's hard to call
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It's not hard to call at all....

Almunia committed himself to the challenge. Got the player not the ball. Therefore its a penalty & a yellow card.

It's a very simple decision.

The point up for discussion was whether Rooney was looking for a penalty or not.
 
Jopub said:
Absolutely, which is why I said much earlier had Almunia managed to not clatter into him it would have ended up exactly the same as Eduardo's

There's absolutely no doubt at all that Rooney is dropping his left side as he goes forward before getting hit. If you look closely you can see his left foot going underneath him as he starts to do that and his left upper leg starts to fall away too (which also means its not stuck in the fking mud as some idiots have mentioned !!)

Thing is Plech you cant argue its not a pen due to the speed of it all and don't forget the ref does'nt have all this time to decide. He made the right call imo and its a clear penalty

However as an 'honest player' that does get Rooney off the hook as its exactly the same as Eduardo's, just that 'Thickmunia' got him off the hook

I find it a bit ridiculous really considering Rooney - he is one of the greatest players in the world today but actually his history of diving and getting decisions cos of it ranks up in the very highest of the lot.

Thats another compelling factor here - its not as if this is the first time he's tried this is it unless he's prone to getting his feet 'stuck in the mud' and 'falling over'
Click to expand...

Personally I think Rooney is one of the few players that actually fights to stay on his feet.
 
TheReligion said:
The question has been answered for you by numerous screenshots and gifs.

You interpret Rooney stretching for the ball as a dive.

Everyone else interprets it as him stretching for the ball...

As said before, if you are still unsure, look where Rooneys eyes are fixed. He doesnt even know where Alumina is, he is simply putting his foot in for the ball.
Click to expand...

Not just me... even of those currently posting, brophs, Spoony and even Mike agree that Rooney dived. Read the thread, there are plenty of people who do.

Looking forward to your next wide-eyed expostulation... "How can you idiots not think Almunia clattered him? Hoooooooow?"

CnutOfAllCnuts said:
Only Rooney can say whether he had.

And unless we bring in mind-reading as a requirement for refs, it is again totally irrelevant.
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Not irrelevant, that's what makes it so hard for refs to gauge whether someone's diving or 'going down too easy' - when players are good at it, they basically need to be a mind-reader. That's why players shouldn't go down too easy, including Rooney.

F-Red said:
It's not hard to call at all....

Almunia committed himself to the challenge. Got the player not the ball. Therefore its a penalty & a yellow card.

It's a very simple decision.

The point up for discussion was whether Rooney was looking for a penalty or not.
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Along with the crucial question of whether Rooney had begun his simulation before he was clattered

Marching said:
Personally I think Rooney is one of the few players that actually fights to stay on his feet.
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That's what's so frustrating. Wayne should be exactly that sort of player, but in fact he's a not infrequent cheat.
 
Plechazunga said:
Okay, what about if a player blatantly dives... before the ref has time to blow up for a free-kick, another attacker gets hold of it, and this time he is scythed down. Penalty?
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No penalty. Yellow card for diving and freekick to defending team. But I don't see what this scenario has to do with anything?
 
Brilliant play from Rooney. He knew he had no chance of getting the ball and beating the GK and defender. He did what every striker is taught to do, toe poke the ball and go down on contact from the GK.

He played for the penalty, and Alumina obliged.
 
Plechazunga said:
Not irrelevant, that's what makes it so hard for refs to gauge whether someone's diving or 'going down too easy' - when players are good at it, they basically need to be a mind-reader. That's why players shouldn't go down too easy, including Rooney.
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Question whether a player goes down to easily, or takes advantage of the opposition's mistake.

Almunia made a mistake. He had no chance of getting the ball, but committed himself to the challenge.

Rooney had two options then, get clattered by Almunia, or jump over him.

Whatever Rooney does, Almunia has illegally interfered with Rooney's charge of the ball.
 
Pletch, your making yourself look like a fool now. You going to go down the road of saying Rooney likes to dive now too?

Knock it on the head while you still can.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
No penalty. Yellow card for diving and freekick to defending team. But I don't see what this scenario has to do with anything?
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Well, in this scenario you agree that the priority of the dive negates the later 'foul'. In the Rooney situation you agree - I think? - that he probably started diving before Almunia reached him, but think the pen should be given.
 
Plechazunga said:
Well, in this scenario you agree that the priority of the dive negates the later 'foul'. In the Rooney situation you agree - I think? - that he probably started diving before Almunia reached him, but think the pen should be given.
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The thing is in your example there are two clearly defined instances; in Rooney's penalty there is just one.

And no, I wouldn't say Rooney dived before Almunia fouled him. I would say it would be a dive if Almunia doesn't touch him. You can't be diving if you are fouled, as a dive is by definition going down without being fouled. That's not to say he isn't looking for it. As I said, he was going to go down whatever happened.
 
Plech, for you to be right, they would have to change the rules, and state that unless a player is 100% in balance, a penalty shall never be given - whatever the offence of the defender is.
 
Plechazunga said:
Along with the crucial question of whether Rooney had begun his simulation before he was clattered
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An irrelevent question on the outcome of the decision. If he was 'simulating' (again a stupid word for the pussys who can't say dive) then it wouldn't have been a penalty. Basing that irrelevant question on the split second frame of a trailing leg is absolutely ludicrous & clutching at straws. Something that looks every more ludicrous when they try to compare like for like with Eduardo.

Almunia made the contact which made any form of discussion about a dive irrelevant - as to dive, or simulate as you would say, he would be looking to simulate the challenge or contact. Which as everyone knows didn't happen.

The only question up for discussion is whether Rooney was looking for the penalty, knowing that if he got a foot to the ball Almunia wouldn't get it & take him down or he was genuinely chasing a ball which he realistically had no chance of getting.
 
CnutOfAllCnuts said:
Plech, for you to be right, they would have to change the rules, and state that unless a player is 100% in balance, a penalty shall never be given - whatever the offence of the defender is.
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Exactly!

How can anyone, even a video ref, decide that a player is 100 percent in balance. You have to go with what physicaly happens, like we have been doing in the sport for hundereds of years.
 
TheReligion said:
Exactly!

How can anyone, even a video ref, decide that a player is 100 percent in balance. You have to go with what physicaly happens, like we have been doing in the sport for hundereds of years.
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I think everyone who has played football knows this.
 
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