Wealth Tax in the UK

Probably spend as much administering the tax as it would bring in...

How can you accurately value property? You would actually get penalised for refurbishing/ improving your home.
 
It’s a good and tough thought experiment to think of how actually to best bring in extra revenue to pay for all the COVID payouts. No easy answers..

I agree. I think we all know something has to be done.

frankly, god knows what. I presume there is a lot of modelling currently going on, right up to the start of March.
 
sorry. Didn’t realise you were not able to post unless you were Adam Smith?

MSc in Economics by the way - what have you got?
The massive report that was commissioned and put together by experts saying it’s the best option, rather than passively dismissing it as “completely impractical” based on nothing.
 
The massive report that was commissioned and put together by experts saying it’s the best option, rather than passively dismissing it as “completely impractical” based on nothing.

it’s a football forum. Do we really all have to go to the trouble of reading a ‘massive’ report? Or can we have a discussion

have you read it, or are you happy to accept the opinion of ‘experts?’
 
it’s a football forum. Do we really all have to go to the trouble of reading a ‘massive’ report? Or can we have a discussion

have you read it, or are you happy to accept the opinion of ‘experts?’
What does it matter that we’re on a football forum? I’ve been having a discussion already, you were the one who dismissed it out of hand with no kind of reasoning.

I’ve not read the full 126 page report but I’ve read the 12 page executive summary and I was already of the view that a one-off wealth tax is by far the fairest option to dig us out of the hole given the cost of the alternative options.

I’ve also been surprised that many HNW clients are actually pretty accepting of the concept and consider it the most reasonable route.
 
I didn't know which forum to put this in or to use the Economics thread, so I've created this one from a social effect perspective. In other words, how the heck do I avoid it since Sunak is about to drop a one off stinker on us vulnerable middle class.

So I'm at a stage of my life where I have worked hard, paid every penny of tax since uni and I'm sure a bit more, got my parents to sell up to contribute to our current (and only) abode of which the mortgage is nearly paid, and in which they live too. I also have some pension built up, nothing I could comfortably live off when I retire unfortunately. However the number is big enough to affect my illiquid 'wealth'.

I've used a wealth calculator and I will be due a tax bill of a few thousand if Sunak goes ahead with the 500k band. What the feck is he thinking? I'm not rich because I have a house worth over 400k. If I sell it yes I'll be rich but then my elderly mum and my four kids will also be on the street.

So anyone with their finger on the pulse know how serious he is with this? There is one get out for me if I put my wife as joint tenant but is it too late for that now?

Any wealth tax should not include the value of the home you live in. It should also only apply to assets over £1 million in value.

This way people who have saved for pensions or to pass onto family aren't taxed unfairly.

If you have more than a million quid (not including your home), then it's safe to say you have enough to be paying a few % a year for the most needy in society. Your home and your first million aren't impacted and paying 2 or 3% after that won't kill you.
 
Well, given levels of poverty in some areas of the UK, it's either not nearly enough or the government is grossly incompetent in its administration of socioeconomic support programs.

Institutions and the people running them having zero incentive to run things efficiently and in many instances being rewarded with higher budgets when running them poorly when standards drop means inefficiency is an inevitability. Its less gross incompetence and more the unavoidable net result of monopolising any industry.

I think it's a safe bet for example that the amount of tube drivers made redundant over the last 12 months is not comparable to the amount of airline staff.
 
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What does it matter that we’re on a football forum? I’ve been having a discussion already, you were the one who dismissed it out of hand with no kind of reasoning.

I’ve not read the full 126 page report but I’ve read the 12 page executive summary and I was already of the view that a one-off wealth tax is by far the fairest option to dig us out of the hole given the cost of the alternative options.

I’ve also been surprised that many HNW clients are actually pretty accepting of the concept and consider it the most reasonable route.

I don’t have the time or the inclination to have an in depth conversation or go into an analysis of it - but I’m still allowed an opinion, as is anyone, no matter what their experience, knowledge or expertise.

just to clarify, you were already of the view that it was the best option before reading the exec summary? What was that based on? 25 years experience of studying economics?
 
I don’t have the time or the inclination to have an in depth conversation or go into an analysis of it - but I’m still allowed an opinion, as is anyone, no matter what their experience, knowledge or expertise.

just to clarify, you were already of the view that it was the best option before reading the exec summary? What was that based on? 25 years experience of studying economics?

A minute ago you wanted a discussion rather than referring to the commission report, but now you have neither the time nor inclination to get into conversation on it?

It was based on my views on the UK tax regime and 15+ years working in and advising on it and seeing first hand the behaviours that are driven by changes in policy, but I wouldn’t consider myself any kind of voice of authority on policy or economic theory, hence why I tend to defer to the experts on such matters and when I see someone dismiss their findings as “completely impractical” it makes me wonder what that view may be based on.

Not much, it seems.
 
A minute ago you wanted a discussion rather than referring to the commission report, but now you have neither the time nor inclination to get into conversation on it?

It was based on my views on the UK tax regime and 15+ years working in and advising on it and seeing first hand the behaviours that are driven by changes in policy, but I wouldn’t consider myself any kind of voice of authority on policy or economic theory, hence why I tend to defer to the experts on such matters and when I see someone dismiss their findings as “completely impractical” it makes me wonder what that view may be based on.

Not much, it seems.

experience and knowledge. Neither of which I need to justify on an anonymous forum.

goodnight.:)
 
Institutions and the people running them having zero incentive to run things efficiently and in many instances being rewarded with higher budgets when running them poorly when standards drop means inefficiency is an inevitability. Its less gross incompetence and more the unavoidable net result of monopolising any industry.

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Percent of GDP spent on healthcare on the y-axis versus degree of govt expenditure as a percent of total health expenditure on the x-axis, European figures from 2017.
 
A minute ago you wanted a discussion rather than referring to the commission report, but now you have neither the time nor inclination to get into conversation on it?

It was based on my views on the UK tax regime and 15+ years working in and advising on it and seeing first hand the behaviours that are driven by changes in policy, but I wouldn’t consider myself any kind of voice of authority on policy or economic theory, hence why I tend to defer to the experts on such matters and when I see someone dismiss their findings as “completely impractical” it makes me wonder what that view may be based on.

Not much, it seems.

Wealth taxes are pretty common around the world. As are property taxes, and they normally take the value of the property into account.

I'm sure there are different methods of calculating, but the one I'm familiar with is using a statistical model (taking into account things like location, size, age and several other things). Then, if you think the statistical value is wrong you can get it adjusted by documenting a recent sale value of either your own property or a similar property in your area, or by getting a valuation from a realtor or an appraiser.

If this tax doesn't get implemented it's not because it isn't feasible to calculate property value, that's for sure.
 
it’s a football forum. Do we really all have to go to the trouble of reading a ‘massive’ report? Or can we have a discussion
Since you bring it up yourself: I think the point here is that @Rado_N is trying to have a discussion and you're not. You're rather defending your right to shout something without having to back it up in any kind of way (well, maybe an Argument from Authority). And while you can indeed do that if you want, that's not the discussion you're asking for yourself in this quote.
 
Wealth taxes are pretty common around the world. As are property taxes, and they normally take the value of the property into account.

I'm sure there are different methods of calculating, but the one I'm familiar with is using a statistical model (taking into account things like location, size, age and several other things). Then, if you think the statistical value is wrong you can get it adjusted by documenting a recent sale value of either your own property or a similar property in your area, or by getting a valuation from a realtor or an appraiser.

If this tax doesn't get implemented it's not because it isn't feasible to calculate property value, that's for sure.

Yea for sure, valuation isn’t overly complicated.

There’s an admin burden associated with any such tax, but that’s factored in to the estimated yield and it’s still the optimum solution.
 
Wealth taxes are pretty common around the world. As are property taxes, and they normally take the value of the property into account.

I'm sure there are different methods of calculating, but the one I'm familiar with is using a statistical model (taking into account things like location, size, age and several other things). Then, if you think the statistical value is wrong you can get it adjusted by documenting a recent sale value of either your own property or a similar property in your area, or by getting a valuation from a realtor or an appraiser.

If this tax doesn't get implemented it's not because it isn't feasible to calculate property value, that's for sure.

an estate agent is not qualified to appraise a property. next you will be suggesting we go off of the values on Zoopla

Surveyors are down valuing property left right and centre at the moment, and valid comparables are only for sales in the past 6 months, and within 1/2 mile.

This works well for a city terrace, but when we are taking about higher value property - then yes, this is a very contentious process.

the only valid valuations, are an actual sale or a RICS Red Book valuation - which is not feasible at the scale needed.

edit. The UK has tried to value property previously for taxation, and it’s had limited success, and proved to be far from simple. For a one off charge, the admin is extremely burdensome.
 
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Institutions and the people running them having zero incentive to run things efficiently and in many instances being rewarded with higher budgets when running them poorly when standards drop means inefficiency is an inevitability. Its less gross incompetence and more the unavoidable net result of monopolising any industry.

I think it's a safe bet for example that the amount of tube drivers made redundant over the last 12 months is not comparable to the amount of airline staff.
That seems like a generic pro-capitalism argument though: governments are inherently inefficient, governments can't pick winners, and so on. That holds no water though. For one, the US is one of the most privatized countries in the world and is particularly big on wasting money. Also, job protection in the public sector has more behind it than the bottom line; Canada also protected all of its public servants, and that's not because of inefficiencies. So what you're saying here doesn't really answer anything for me.
 
Yea for sure, valuation isn’t overly complicated.

There’s an admin burden associated with any such tax, but that’s factored in to the estimated yield and it’s still the optimum solution.

Probably not interesting for anyone, but here is a calculator for Norwegian homes' tax value. It uses a model from Statistics Norway, and you just fill in the address, square meters, age and type of residency (detatched house, apartment, etc) to get the result. Then, if you think it's wrong, you send in documentation in the vein of those I described earlier.
 
In theory, a wealth tax is the way to go for a more ethical and transparent form of governance, public spending, as well as help to 'level up' those in the working class.

In your particular circumstance, @Dumbstar , I doubt the property you own and live in will be included in the calculation. It'll most likely be BTL properties etc.
 
Also, it’ll be assessed on net wealth, and I’m sorry but if you own a £400k home without any borrowings, and over £100k of net wealth elsewhere then you’re certainly asset rich at the very least.

So if my mate blows all his money on expensive holidays and frivolous shit, whereas I am sensible enough to save up to get a house and pay off the mortgage, I deserve to be penalised for that decision?
 
So if my mate blows all his money on expensive holidays and frivolous shit, whereas I am sensible enough to save up to get a house and pay off the mortgage, I deserve to be penalised for that decision?
To be fair, he’ll have paid 20% VAT on a lot of that frivolous consumption.
 
Probably not interesting for anyone, but here is a calculator for Norwegian homes' tax value. It uses a model from Statistics Norway, and you just fill in the address, square meters, age and type of residency (detatched house, apartment, etc) to get the result. Then, if you think it's wrong, you send in documentation in the vein of those I described earlier.
It would be hard to administer in the UK. Where my mum lives the houses are very samey, but in parts of London you have former social housing blocks cheek by jowl with nice detached period properties and so on. The street behind ours is massively more expensive etc....
Are they really going to factor in school catchment areas, whether your garden is south facing and so on?
 
The other issue I forsee is if this is announced as happening (which it won't be), will we see a rush of people selling equity in their BTL homes and taking 80-90% mortgages?
 
In theory, a wealth tax is the way to go for a more ethical and transparent form of governance, public spending, as well as help to 'level up' those in the working class.

In your particular circumstance, @Dumbstar , I doubt the property you own and live in will be included in the calculation. It'll most likely be BTL properties etc.
It's not ethical to retrospectively tax someone for a third time on a property and then they'll have another go with IHT.
 
It would be hard to administer in the UK. Where my mum lives the houses are very samey, but in parts of London you have former social housing blocks cheek by jowl with nice detached period properties and so on. The street behind ours is massively more expensive etc....
Are they really going to factor in school catchment areas, whether your garden is south facing and so on?
The solution most economists seem to suggest to this problem is a Land Value Tax, where the tax is levied on the unimproved value of the underlying land, disregarding any property built on it.
 
The other issue I forsee is if this is announced as happening (which it won't be), will we see a rush of people selling equity in their BTL homes and taking 80-90% mortgages?

Presumably if you were going to announce a one-off wealth tax you would have the reference date be the same as or right after the announcement date, making attempts to avoid it impractical.
 
It would be hard to administer in the UK. Where my mum lives the houses are very samey, but in parts of London you have former social housing blocks cheek by jowl with nice detached period properties and so on. The street behind ours is massively more expensive etc....
Are they really going to factor in school catchment areas, whether your garden is south facing and so on?

I'm not going to pretend to know anything about London, that would be a task for some UK economists. But generally the "housing block vs detatched" should at least capture a lot of that, no? The biggest Norwegian cities have absolutely nothing on London, of course, but there's quite a lot of variance in housing here as well and by blindly checking some close areas I know something about it seems to measure up quite well.

Maybe those writing the report has said something about it?
 
The solution most economists seem to suggest to this problem is a Land Value Tax, where the tax is levied on the unimproved value of the underlying land, disregarding any property built on it.
That's still a very blunt tool, given what's built on the land is more important.
 
I'm not going to pretend to know anything about London, that would be a task for some UK economists. But generally the "housing block vs detatched" should at least capture a lot of that, no? The biggest Norwegian cities have absolutely nothing on London, of course, but there's quite a lot of variance in housing here as well and by blindly checking some close areas I know something about it seems to measure up quite well.

Maybe those writing the report has said something about it?
I dunno, I was wondering if they'd just use postcodes, which basically relate to individual streets. The streets, even if small, can have houses from multiple eras though, so doing it accurately would be very labour intensive if is to be fair.

Also bear in mind our government's extreme incompetence.
 
So if my mate blows all his money on expensive holidays and frivolous shit, whereas I am sensible enough to save up to get a house and pay off the mortgage, I deserve to be penalised for that decision?
Taxes are not a punishment. They’re the price we pay for a functioning society. It’s about finding the fairest way overall.

Also:

To be fair, he’ll have paid 20% VAT on a lot of that frivolous consumption.

This.
 
Presumably if you were going to announce a one-off wealth tax you would have the reference date be the same as or right after the announcement date, making attempts to avoid it impractical.
Yea, it would also “catch” people who leave the country, or potentially even people who left recently before it even gets announced.