We should learn from Brazil

ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC

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Simple as.

I think Brazil inspired us last time round, maybe they will do so again as the fairy dust seems to have worn off. Fergie definitely admires the way they play.

C'mon Fergie, revitalise your tactics and your players - this is how football should be played.
 
Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
<strong>Simple as.

I think Brazil inspired us last time round, maybe they will do so again as the fairy dust seems to have worn off. Fergie definitely admires the way they play.

C'mon Fergie, revitalise your tactics and your players - this is how football should be played.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Previously you have posted many good ideas in your post, but this time I'm a bit puzzled. I don't know what thing should we learn from Brazil. Their tricks? Their playing style? How can a English Premier league team play like the Brazilians is a complete mystery to me. Can you explain more about your idea?
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Definately no play acting <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[No No]" /> <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[No No]" />
 
Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
<strong>Simple as.

I think Brazil inspired us last time round, maybe they will do so again as the fairy dust seems to have worn off. Fergie definitely admires the way they play.

C'mon Fergie, revitalise your tactics and your players - this is how football should be played.</strong><hr></blockquote>

What are you on?!? Brazil was shite today! In fact, it is funny you say we should play like them because no one really knows what they are playing, even the manager admits they are getting it all wrong! <img src="graemlins/houllier.gif" border="0" alt="[Houllier]" />
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did the brazilian manager at the '94 world cup not say that he based his teams style of play on the Manchester United Style of play!

We have our own ever evolving style, we don't need to look at anyone but ourselves.
 
Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
<strong>Simple as.

I think Brazil inspired us last time round, maybe they will do so again as the fairy dust seems to have worn off. Fergie definitely admires the way they play.

C'mon Fergie, revitalise your tactics and your players - this is how football should be played.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Man United would beat Brazil
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Brazil were shite?? ARE YOU MAD? I thought you knew your stuff but everyone knows Brazil have been amazing and are now favourites for the cup.

I was going to write some stuff we should emulate but I figured it would be pretty obvious.

Passing game. We dont have the same zip that we used to. We used to pass like Brazil, 1 touch and cut right through teams. Now we try so many no-hope long balls. Plus the movement in our squad is so limited that there is very little space compared to Brazilian players. The movement is the main thing, it will create space for Beckhams 50 yard passes and help our passing game. Its as if every midfielder is behaving like an attacker 50% of the time - waiting in their position for service from the other players. It should not be like that. They should be up and down, back and forth. Remember Blackburn early on? Our 4 midfielders were moving all over, it wreaked havoc and enabled all our players to shine, Veron included. Movement is the key.

Fullbacks - ESSENTIAL to the game, ours have been shite compared to Carlos and Cafu. I'm not asking for skills all round. But to get forward and assist the wingers, allowing Beckham and Giggs to attack more. Sitting back makes the whole team sit deeper and makes us less effective up front. Those runs that Silvestre make now and then dont help enough, he has been great going forward, and we should look to use it more often. He has probably crossed it more effectively than Giggs.

Wingers - whens the last time Beckham got out wide and crossed it? This is potentially our main weapon. I remember that whenever he got to the box, it was almost a guaranteed goal. But cant remember the last time he did it properly. Giggs rarely beats the last man anymore. He should learn from Duff and the great Brazil left players who scare the hell out of defenders. Giggs has amazing skill but he has not used it, instead relying on his pace, more often than not getting tackled. When he was younger he used his skill and he was incredible. The Brazilian attackers hardly lose the ball, they either beat the player or pass it.

Defensive mid - someone who will just sit there and be happy to do their job - if Keane wont do that, Butt is more than capable. He has to sit back and allow the full backs to get forward, if the DM goes, the full backs have to stay or Scholes/Veron have to stay. He should also always be the free man, no one marks the Defensive mid, he should be an outlet for the pass from every defender and every mid.

Last of all, attitude. Not the acting, but the hunger and show boating. Brazil never stop going for goal or showing off. Our players used to be like that, but now, they would rather run down the clock. I think Cafu has been awesome, even when the game is won, he created a goal, missed his own chance and then saved a goal in the space of a few minutes. Puts Thuram to shame. Attitude is worth 2 extra players and its where Liverpool and Arsenal have beaten us. Not ability.

If you could get an overhead view of our players 4 years ago, it would be fluid and free flowing like Brazil. But its alot different now. That shold be enough for now.
 
bloody hell mate, you claim that brazil are the worlds best, and that we should be plaing like that... well if playing like the best team in the world was that easy dont you think everyone would be doing it?

You cant adapt our whole style of play just to be like the Brazilians. They are playing in a world cup that has a maximum of 7 games. At this stage they are against inferior opponents and they want to put on a show thus they can afford to do some extra show boating and keep going for goal. But when you play 60 matches week in and week out in a season you can't afford to be going all out for the full 90mins to get a few extra goals. Id ratther beat the likes of West Brom 1-0 and save some of our energy for the likes of the Arse and Liverool.

As for your claims that Brazil are the team to beat, I honestly think that are going to be found wanting when it comes to playing teams such as Italy or Spain. They dont really the steal or the organisation in the midfield to keep quality teams at bay.

Yeah agreed they are great to watch, astheticaly pleasing, but im with AEBM i reckon United would beat the current Brazil team.
 
Hmm....that old conundrum - Brazil vs Man Utd.

I think Brazil are so strong going forward that they just press the opposition and totally dominate. Best form of defense is...?

The main thing is movement. Our players dont do it enough or do the right things.

Not every team can play like Brazil, but we definitely can. Its really not that hard when you have the ability our players have. I hope watching Brazil has reminded Fergie how important movement and other things are and that he reincorporates it into our team.

The way we play now is ok for easy teams. But against big teams, the best thing to do is kill them to shreds. How do teams beat us? They come at us. Who are the best attacking side? US! So what the hells going on. Why is it that when people play us they attack us but when we play big teams we sit back in 4-5-1? We should be going out there and taking the game to them the way we used to. We're more than capable. This is the best squad of players in the world, without question. Some might say the best squad ever in ths history of football. So nothing is beyond them.

But we've been playing like a midtable side, with the mentality to go along with it. Brazil, even with their crap qualifying campaign, still play like kings, like rulers of the footballing world. That should be us, that authority, that hunger and ruthlessness. Confidence and arrogance. Only then will our football be back to its best.

Cantona instilled these things in us for awhile, but effects are wearing off.
 
Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
<strong>Not every team can play like Brazil
</strong><hr></blockquote>

My fundamental problem with your post is that Brazil are not playing like anything. They are just a bunch of very skilled players facing dismal opposition.

What you saw yesterday was a kickabout, make no mistake. There were no tactics involved in it.

Let's see:

Defence: They have NO idea how to operate as a block. When attacked they just run around like headless chicken. The back three have been useless.

Brazilian's verdict: "given that the back three are shite, why not play with 1 or 2, remain to have a shite defence but play two more midfielders/attackers?".


Attacking fullbacks: This is not tactics, this is just 2 tremendous players. Anyone who had Cafu and Roberto Carlos would play them like that. They aren't much use otherwise.

I would not be surprised if against stronger teams they are kept under check (e.g. Beckham had Sorin for dinner).


Midifield: One average ball-winner, useless for anything else. One playmaker, Juninho, who makes the game go as quick as he can run as he just doesn't pass the ball and carries the ball continuously.

Against stronger opposition Silva will not be enough to hold them. Juninho doesn't tackle and will get caught in possession continuously.


Attacking mid/wingers/attackers: Basically, three fantastic players meant to rip the other team apart. There isn't any tactic/strategy involved, they just run around, piss around in different sectors and predominate due to their sheer class.

Their alternative for the second half: the very eye-catching Denilson.

Brazilian verdict for Denilson "he is better suited for Nike ads than playing football".

So, all you have is the isolated individual brilliance of:

-Roberto Carlos
-Cafu
-Ronaldo
-Ronaldinho
-Rivaldo

As we know, we would want any of those in a red shirt anytime, they are players who can make a difference and even playing with no clear tactics/strategy/gameplans their sheer brilliance might prevail.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if they get whacked. It's a simple gamble, same as the 1982 team, Brazil is probably the team with the greatest potential to beat those same teams which look more suited to beating them.

A strong, skilled, organised, solid team is the greatest threat to their random approach. But then, their individual strokes of genius are the elements that escape the planning/possibilities of those same teams.

It's a roulette approach you can take in the WC, not in the EPL or the CL!

If only Juninho was replaced by Ricardinho and Vampeta at the expense of a useless defender, Brazil would strengthen their ability to control the game but I don't think they'll go for that. They continue to tinker with the defence working when it never will, they should focus on scoring more than they allow in (strengthen miidfield play), and they aren't.
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Brazil are great to watch, but take yesterday's game as an example. China could have had a couple of goals on the break if they had been just a little bit better. Brazil will concede a couple of goals when up against teams like Spain and Italy, and they will find it very hard to score three against that kind of opposition.

If Man United played Brazil, we would Keano and Scholes would boss the midfield, and Ruud and Giggsy would have a field day against their defence.
 
Agree with Antohan this time. Brazil played like god simply because their opponenet was China. If you watched how horrible were them in their WC Qualifiers I wonder will anyone still say we should play like them.
 
Brazil are a bunch of quality players not playing a team game. We'd want Ronaldinho for example? What for? He's shown nothing to prove he's United class. Rivaldo? Class individual, but not a very good team player.

So Brazil beat a decent side thanks to the referee, blast away possibly the poorest team in the tournament and suddenly they play great stuff? No...
 
china w/ a couple more "better" , touchs , final passes and not ball watchin' in awe , would have stung the giant (not beat them). lucio is a DMF at best. MU would have made a meal of the 11 that were out there. butt , keano and PS all throwin' chrushing tackles , becks and RG in counter attacks , feeding rvn and ogs.
 
Originally posted by FresnoBob:
<strong>The one thing England could learn from Brazil is how to end up in an easy first round group.</strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
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Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>

Man United would beat Brazil</strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
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Originally posted by Nabe:
<strong>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Why are you laughing? IMO the best European clubs, of which Man United are among, are better than most International team. On normal form, I would say only France and Argentina + possibly Italy are as good as the best clubs.
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These club vs country scenarios are always tough to think about cos it wont happen and its never fair to compare.

Against Brazil, I cant see our defence being able to handle them attackers.

Whats also good was how they pressed the ball, strong in the tackles etc.

Everyone here has criticised them, but I'll judge what I see and I saw a first class performance. You can only beat whats put in front of you. If they fail later on against good sides then you lot will be right.

But the points I made are still viable I think. They are definitely areas we need to improve on.
 
:D

Whats the point? I leave the glaoting online to other people. I dont have fun discussing good things.

I do however like ironing out faults and analysing the game and discussing improvements etc.

As it happens I see so many faults in Man Utds games last season, I have to get it off my chest. Particularly as the same bunch of players playing the same formation have suddenly gotten alot worse.

All that "Beckham was great" etc is better in real life where convo's are alot more light hearted.
 
I do say positive things though. At the start of the season I was saying how we were gonna be the best in Europe and how we're perfect in every way.

Then we sold Stam, Yorke fell away again, Cole left, Barthez, Brown and Veron triple act let me down and the all round play was so lack lustre it betrayed the talent on display.

I dont mind mistakes actually. Its unfulfilled potential/ability or wasted ability which gets to me. Our team has played at 70% for the past 3 years. Reminds me too much of my own life perhaps.
 
I find it hard to believe that anybody rates this Brazilian team, they struggled to qualify for the WC and have only looked as good as they have because they are in the weakest goup. Lets see how they perform when they play against decent opposition.
 
You all think its a joke that we should be more like Brazil?

I dont see the logic,its their philosophy that we should admire, I'm not saying we carbon copy them player for player. But we take a look at their energy, hunger, movement etc and we apply it to our own. So what if they've done poorly? Its only cos they have such high standards. Our players are different anyway, but the values and styles are similar. Or at least they should be.

Its this philosophy of total football that seperates Brazil and Man Utd from the other teams out there.

With our players, we should be playing total football. But we're not.

Why do you disagree?????? Its not as if we have a bunch of no hopers. This is a team that played total football for a number of years, back when Brazil (and every other team) probably aspired to play like us. But we're not there anymore. I dont support this club for its trophy cabinet so football without substance is a waste of time (i.e. Liverpoo). I support this club for the magic and the total football.
 
Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
<strong>We should learn from Brazil </strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
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We played like Brazil at times last year....
Great going forward but shite at the back..
Wait till someone attacks em then you'll see how good they are..
 
Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
<strong>
But we take a look at their energy, hunger, movement etc and we apply it to our own. </strong><hr></blockquote>

If you want energy, hunger and movement it's for us to play like Japan you want.
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Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
<strong>You all think its a joke that we should be more like Brazil?

I dont see the logic,its their philosophy that we should admire, I'm not saying we carbon copy them player for player. But we take a look at their energy, hunger, movement etc and we apply it to our own. So what if they've done poorly? Its only cos they have such high standards. Our players are different anyway, but the values and styles are similar. Or at least they should be.

Its this philosophy of total football that seperates Brazil and Man Utd from the other teams out there.

With our players, we should be playing total football. But we're not.

Why do you disagree?????? Its not as if we have a bunch of no hopers. This is a team that played total football for a number of years, back when Brazil (and every other team) probably aspired to play like us. But we're not there anymore. I dont support this club for its trophy cabinet so football without substance is a waste of time (i.e. Liverpoo). I support this club for the magic and the total football.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You like total football? How about Holland who are well known of it, but can't even qualify for the WC final? ;)

Manchester United never plays total football. Total football is the philosophy of "ten up, ten down", all the players on the field can do basically everything. A defender can carry the ball forward and shoot like a striker, while a forward can chase back and mark the opponenet like a defender. The Philosophy is ideal but it is also very demanding and it must be trained from youth team. We didn't play the total football when we won the treble, nor do we need to play it now.
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:sigh:

If you say so.

I'm sure Fergie doesnt think that way and he admires the Brazilian's style of play, which is actually not too different from our own.

How would you like to play? Like last season? Where our players didnt have a clue what to do with the ball or without the ball?

Off the ball: cant defend, cant press, cant fight, cant tackle.

On the ball: clueless, no game plan, just a bunch of world class players thrown onto the pitch in some sort of formation. Too many times I see us approach the penalty box and then dont know where to go. The player proceeds to pass it away, wanting to get rid of the ball more than anything. It used to be that our players wanted the ball all the time, just like Brazil. I remember when Keano got to the box, didnt no what to do so he just whacked it. It rebounded and fell to Phil Neville who didnt no what to do. So he just whacked it.

Whats the big deal about playing attacking football like Brazil anyway? Dont you like attacking football? By ridiculing Brazil you're ridiculing Man Utd, because Brazils faults are pretty much the same as ours!!

Both teams are struggling with their philosophies, Brazil because of poor management and Utd because we've decided to change our philosopy to be more defensive 4-5-1 n all that. We used to go into every game looking to beat the opponent. Dont care how they play, we're 4-4-2 and they have to stop us.

It was that arrogance and confidence that beat teams. Now we're more worried about what other teams will do to us. It should be them worried about us.

I still dont know what your argument is, if all your gonna do is laugh stupidly then go ahead. You act as if Brazil are Tunisia or something. You dont even have an argument. <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[No No]" />
 
Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
<strong>:sigh:

If you say so.

I'm sure Fergie doesnt think that way and he admires the Brazilian's style of play, which is actually not too different from our own.

How would you like to play? Like last season? Where our players didnt have a clue what to do with the ball or without the ball?

Off the ball: cant defend, cant press, cant fight, cant tackle.

On the ball: clueless, no game plan, just a bunch of world class players thrown onto the pitch in some sort of formation. Too many times I see us approach the penalty box and then dont know where to go. The player proceeds to pass it away, wanting to get rid of the ball more than anything. It used to be that our players wanted the ball all the time, just like Brazil. I remember when Keano got to the box, didnt no what to do so he just whacked it. It rebounded and fell to Phil Neville who didnt no what to do. So he just whacked it.

Whats the big deal about playing attacking football like Brazil anyway? Dont you like attacking football? By ridiculing Brazil you're ridiculing Man Utd, because Brazils faults are pretty much the same as ours!!

Both teams are struggling with their philosophies, Brazil because of poor management and Utd because we've decided to change our philosopy to be more defensive 4-5-1 n all that. We used to go into every game looking to beat the opponent. Dont care how they play, we're 4-4-2 and they have to stop us.

It was that arrogance and confidence that beat teams. Now we're more worried about what other teams will do to us. It should be them worried about us.

I still dont know what your argument is, if all your gonna do is laugh stupidly then go ahead. You act as if Brazil are Tunisia or something. You dont even have an argument. <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[No No]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Of course all of us hope United can play better than last season. And we also like attacking football of course. People laughed at your idea are mainly due to your agrument of "we should learn from Brazil". We have watched a lot how Brazil struggled and played like a third class team in their WC Qualifiers, so even they beat Turkey (with luck) and China (the worst team in the tourament), it still doesn't mean that they are a model team we should follow. What we really need is play like the year we won the treble. So I think the team in 1999 is the model we need to follow.
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Well I think we can all agree that Brazil made us look pathetically poor. Brazil played like Man Utd 99, not skills galore, but attack, control, pass and move, imagination, flair, positive - a ruthless killer instinct. Its like this every game.

England played like Man Utd 2002, toothless, no bite, no hunger, no imagination, didnt fight, no passion, casual, cautious. Then they play great one game or some individual luck or brilliance pulls them through.

Dont hate them or blame them, but just like Man Utd, I cannot say I am proud of this performance, unlike the Irish players who fought and ran ther hearts out.

When we lost to Juventus I was proud of our team, esp. Giggsy.

When England lost at Euro 96, I was proud of the teams performance.

Now you see what I meant by learning from Brazil. I'm proud that we got this far, but failing is failing. Brazil didnt even get into top gear. Not laughing now are we? Brazil still shite are they? Feck off!
 
Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
<strong>Well I think we can all agree that Brazil made us look pathetically poor. Brazil played like Man Utd 99, not skills galore, but attack, control, pass and move, imagination, flair, positive - a ruthless killer instinct. Its like this every game.

England played like Man Utd 2002, toothless, no bite, no hunger, no imagination, didnt fight, no passion, casual, cautious. Then they play great one game or some individual luck or brilliance pulls them through.

Dont hate them or blame them, but just like Man Utd, I cannot say I am proud of this performance, unlike the Irish players who fought and ran ther hearts out.

When we lost to Juventus I was proud of our team, esp. Giggsy.

When England lost at Euro 96, I was proud of the teams performance.

Now you see what I meant by learning from Brazil. I'm proud that we got this far, but failing is failing. Brazil didnt even get into top gear. Not laughing now are we? Brazil still shite are they? Feck off!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Brazil will IMO be punished by a better attacking team than England, i.e Spain
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Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>

Brazil will IMO be punished by a better attacking team than England, i.e Spain</strong><hr></blockquote>

That'll be that great attacking force that managed one goal against Oireland yes?
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Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>

That'll be that great attacking force that managed one goal against Oireland yes?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Isn't that the Oirland that Portugal and Holland managed to score one against in two games, no?
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Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
<strong>Well I think we can all agree that Brazil made us look pathetically poor. Brazil played like Man Utd 99, not skills galore, but attack, control, pass and move, imagination, flair, positive - a ruthless killer instinct. Its like this every game.

England played like Man Utd 2002, toothless, no bite, no hunger, no imagination, didnt fight, no passion, casual, cautious. Then they play great one game or some individual luck or brilliance pulls them through.

Dont hate them or blame them, but just like Man Utd, I cannot say I am proud of this performance, unlike the Irish players who fought and ran ther hearts out.

When we lost to Juventus I was proud of our team, esp. Giggsy.

When England lost at Euro 96, I was proud of the teams performance.

Now you see what I meant by learning from Brazil. I'm proud that we got this far, but failing is failing. Brazil didnt even get into top gear. Not laughing now are we? Brazil still shite are they? Feck off!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Brazil is not shite of course. But today's match can only make me believe that there is not many things for us to learn from Brazil. How did Brazil beat England today? Not the great fullback or great winger or great DM or great attitude you mentioned earlier. They won by the genius skill and creativity of Ronaldino. So the only thing to learn today: The way to beat a tight and hard defence is to get someone with the unpredictable genius and creativity such as Ronaldino.
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Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
[QB
England played like Man Utd 2002, toothless, no bite, no hunger, no imagination, didnt fight, no passion, casual, cautious. Then they play great one game or some individual luck or brilliance pulls them through. [/QB]<hr></blockquote>

No hunger? didn't fight? No passion? Sometimes I wonder what the english expect to see for them to say 'the players fought'. I guess unless you bleed like Terry Butcher, you didn't actually fight.
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Spain are a great attacking force then are they jsv? Spain that beat Ireland minus Keane 1-0 are a great attacking froce are they? Portugal and Holland are great teams are they?
 
I'm saying you're being stupid if you discredit Spain as an attacking force due to one game. Your tears are getting in the way of you thinking straight.
 
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