He can't even be a great leader/player in this United side, so curious about what makes you say that.
'We are starving for leaders on the pitch": has Amorim just exposed the true scale of the problem facing United
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A mistake, a misplaced pass or poor decision should be met with a proper bollocking, not throwing your hands in the air or applauding the effort.
The problem is not one of the players shows enough themselves to be able to admonish others in such a fashion for not being good enough. Players just don't lead by example on the pitch, do things right consistently and then you can't start getting on at other players for the same.
So you end up with a bunch of players who aren't willing to step on each others toes or get at each other because they know themselves they aren't doing enough either.
The problem is not one of the players shows enough themselves to be able to admonish others in such a fashion for not being good enough. Players just don't lead by example on the pitch, do things right consistently and then you can't start getting on at other players for the same.
So you end up with a bunch of players who aren't willing to step on each others toes or get at each other because they know themselves they aren't doing enough either.
I respect Maguire’s resilience, but I think that’s more of a personal pride thing. I am not sure he is a good ‘leader’ in the context of inspiring his teammates, but at least he sets a good example.
Bruno does this every game tbf, but that’s mostly due to his own mistakes.
Lots of people have been banging the drum about leadership for a while now, and it's telling that even this manager's finally starting to mention it too. You can see it plain as day when we're out there on the pitch, the lack of leadership is absolutely jarring. Don't get me wrong, having someone who's a proper role model off the field is great and all, but bloody hell, if they can't get a grip of things during matches, what's the point? The armband isn't just some fancy accessory, you need someone who'll actually step up when things go sideways.
And let's face it, with the shambles we're in right now, weak leadership is the last thing we need. You see it every time we concede and Christ, it's happening way too early in matches these days - heads drop, shoulders slump, and suddenly we're playing like a bunch of strangers who've never kicked a ball together. No one's grabbing the game by the scruff of the neck, no one's rallying the troops when we're up against it. Yeah, being a nice bloke and doing charity work is class especially at this time when men in suits just want to cut everything off, but at this point in our season, it would be really nice if someone who can actually sort things out on the pitch.
And let's face it, with the shambles we're in right now, weak leadership is the last thing we need. You see it every time we concede and Christ, it's happening way too early in matches these days - heads drop, shoulders slump, and suddenly we're playing like a bunch of strangers who've never kicked a ball together. No one's grabbing the game by the scruff of the neck, no one's rallying the troops when we're up against it. Yeah, being a nice bloke and doing charity work is class especially at this time when men in suits just want to cut everything off, but at this point in our season, it would be really nice if someone who can actually sort things out on the pitch.
He is not wrong.
A good mate of mine supports Liverpool, and after what they did we naturally talked quite a bit about rebuilding a squad not only in footballing terms but also when it comes to a winning culture and leadership. (After Klopp he knows everything there is to know about that topic, of course…)
He showed me a podcast from the time of Klopps tenure before it klicked.
They talk about principles of a healthy dressingroom and winning mentality.
I think we all agree that our rotten dressingroom has to change, but other than ‘they need a kick up their ass!‘ I haven‘t seen too many solutions.
What I found extremely interesting about it is that the sports psychologist they have on as a guest explains very detailed how such a process can/should look like. Bonus is he‘s a red
So if you can stomach the scouse cnuts hosting it I highly recommend to give it a try, I felt as if they were talking about us several times.
I can‘t post links yet as newbie so:
The anfield wrap - Jurgen Klopp thinking games
Mod edit: link added.
He showed me a podcast from the time of Klopps tenure before it klicked.
They talk about principles of a healthy dressingroom and winning mentality.
I think we all agree that our rotten dressingroom has to change, but other than ‘they need a kick up their ass!‘ I haven‘t seen too many solutions.
What I found extremely interesting about it is that the sports psychologist they have on as a guest explains very detailed how such a process can/should look like. Bonus is he‘s a red
So if you can stomach the scouse cnuts hosting it I highly recommend to give it a try, I felt as if they were talking about us several times.
The anfield wrap - Jurgen Klopp thinking games
Mod edit: link added.
Last edited by a moderator:
It's all about culture. You can say Keane, Neville, Vidic and the like were great leaders, but they joined a club full of leadership and became great leaders within that environment.
The culture at United is rotten and has been for an age. It's very difficult for an individual to come into that environment and instigate change - it's next to impossible for a young player to break though and do it. A guy like Casemiro, De Ligt or Maguire could've come into the club in the 90's or early 2000's and added to the leadership group, but in a club without accountability and discipline, it is far more likely that they will come in as individuals and migrate towards the group than it is they will be a magical catalyst for change.
It's the reason many of us have felt the club needed a dramatic reset and cull for many years now. People kept saying it's unrealistic to change the majority of a squad, but we've been half arsing it for more than a decade and despite huge changes in personnel, the same issues linger on. Roy Keane would've come into this side and either been kicked out of the club within a year for not getting on with anyone, or he'd have become half the player he was without the impact great leaders had on his development. We tend to think of the lack of leadership in terms of its impact on results, but a graver impact is the development cost of talent and careers that could've been.
I firmly believe for example, that a Marcus Rashford born into the class of 92, with the exact same talent and personality, would've been a world class footballer at 27. Instead we had a 23 year old who told his captain to "shut the feck up you knobhead" in front of cameras when he was being asked to track back, was never dropped or disciplined for it, and now we have this version.
I don't fully buy into the "modern football is different" argument either. It's different at United because that's the culture we have allowed to fester. Real Madrid didn't lack for leadership over the past decade, nor did Bayern Munich. Liverpool have achieved more than the sum of their parts by signing good characters, without anything like the financial resources we've wasted. It's more challenging to develop leaders and a leadership environment nowadays - 18 year olds being on 100k a week certainly doesn't help, but it isn't impossible and it certainly doesn't have to be as bad as we have it.
The culture at United is rotten and has been for an age. It's very difficult for an individual to come into that environment and instigate change - it's next to impossible for a young player to break though and do it. A guy like Casemiro, De Ligt or Maguire could've come into the club in the 90's or early 2000's and added to the leadership group, but in a club without accountability and discipline, it is far more likely that they will come in as individuals and migrate towards the group than it is they will be a magical catalyst for change.
It's the reason many of us have felt the club needed a dramatic reset and cull for many years now. People kept saying it's unrealistic to change the majority of a squad, but we've been half arsing it for more than a decade and despite huge changes in personnel, the same issues linger on. Roy Keane would've come into this side and either been kicked out of the club within a year for not getting on with anyone, or he'd have become half the player he was without the impact great leaders had on his development. We tend to think of the lack of leadership in terms of its impact on results, but a graver impact is the development cost of talent and careers that could've been.
I firmly believe for example, that a Marcus Rashford born into the class of 92, with the exact same talent and personality, would've been a world class footballer at 27. Instead we had a 23 year old who told his captain to "shut the feck up you knobhead" in front of cameras when he was being asked to track back, was never dropped or disciplined for it, and now we have this version.
I don't fully buy into the "modern football is different" argument either. It's different at United because that's the culture we have allowed to fester. Real Madrid didn't lack for leadership over the past decade, nor did Bayern Munich. Liverpool have achieved more than the sum of their parts by signing good characters, without anything like the financial resources we've wasted. It's more challenging to develop leaders and a leadership environment nowadays - 18 year olds being on 100k a week certainly doesn't help, but it isn't impossible and it certainly doesn't have to be as bad as we have it.
This shouldnt matter. The leadership should be reaffirming what they've been doing in training and what the manager wants from the team. Therefore even if you are playing shit, as long as you are reaffirming what the manager wants the team to do you should be listened to.
Its not like its the player's own idea of how to play. Its not park football where you listen to the player doing the best. Its only the manager and he cant be on the pitch, so the players need to remind each other when they spot something off
He's a very good player. That should be obvious. Many of our players from the last 10 years have or have been good players at some point.
For some reason, none of them work out like they should at United. That's a wider structural issue.
As I say, Roy Keane would struggle in this current team. As would Neville, Ferdinand and many other great players and leaders from our past. Unless we went back in time and swapped the entire team and manager with the current setup, they'd be on a hiding to nothing.
I know I'm an outsider but this is an absolutely ludicrous thing to say, good grief
Our players are mentally destroyed...extremely weak, fragile, I'd say fearful on the pitch which is why we see so many stupid errors. Majority of them probably hate playing at Old Trafford because of the massive pressure they face when things aren't going well.
This is where Brailsford needs to step up now and do some hardcore work with them...a handshake here and there with a thank you isn't going to cut it.
This is where Brailsford needs to step up now and do some hardcore work with them...a handshake here and there with a thank you isn't going to cut it.
No they wouldn't; they all had the ability to make others better via their leadership and actions on the pitch. There is more to being a captain than just being a good player. Bruno sets an absolutely awful example to the other players with his constant whinging and body language - it's beyond ludicrous to put him in the same conversation with Roy Keane.
Bruno has been a very good player at times for us, especially in the beginning. He was a PFA TOTY player and a Ballon d'Or nominee (finishing 21th) in 2021. Since then he's been neither.
He's always come across as a great guy in interviews. And he's been a very good player for us at times, capable of world class moments. But he's also been a liability at times.
He was considered indispensable at Sporting too, racking up goals and assists galore. Yet they became a better team and won the league for the first time in 17 years the season after he left (when Amorim came in, coincidentally).
Depends on what he means to be honest, this current team seem more vocal now than previous years - there's a bit more bite about them so I assume it's more a dig to fire up the senior players who have not been performing, rather than say they aren't trying to lead by example. Despite the ropey form, Bruno, Licha, De Ligt, Dalot even are extremely vocal and are forever organising things, Case even gave Garnacho a dressing down during that other game.
Everyone needs to step up to a degree in terms of performances and that includes Amorim, who needs to be less cautious in his selections. We can be cautious in how we play, keep the ball and shuffle teams for long periods to wear them down but we can't be starting 3 CBs, 2 FBs as WBs and 2 CMs whose role is defensive again, it just won't work.
Everyone needs to step up to a degree in terms of performances and that includes Amorim, who needs to be less cautious in his selections. We can be cautious in how we play, keep the ball and shuffle teams for long periods to wear them down but we can't be starting 3 CBs, 2 FBs as WBs and 2 CMs whose role is defensive again, it just won't work.
I already regretted saying that as I was typing it
I'm not sure.
I've been a manager at work and tried to lead by example but the structure above us was incredibly toxic. You can only do so much. Especially when you've maybe been promoted a couple of years ahead of schedule because you were the best of a bad bunch.
In a correctly functioning United side (like what we we had for 20 years before Fergie retired) Fernandes would have been a great asset.
I'm also not saying that Fernandes is anywhere near as good as Keane. More suggesting that Keane benefitted from a better system, structure and team that was already champions when he arrived in 93 and champions again when he became captain in 97. If the Roy Keane of 1993 had arrived at Old Trafford in January 2020, he would have struggled and probably been considered a liability at various points.
Martinez was praised in his first season for his leadership qualities. De Ligt was one of the youngest captains of Ajax. Casemiro was praised as a leader when he was bought. Whilst im not a fan of Bruno as a captain, in terms of effort he displays leadership. There are players in the squad who either have shown leadership qualities or been in leadership positions in their career. I think it's less about "leaders" and more about adding people who are up for battles and fights. Ugarte is a good example of someone who I wouldn't say is a leader but has that right battling profile. Our attack is bereft of that for example. I don't think buying the right "captain" will suddenly solve the lack of fighters in the squad. Find players who have both the technical ability but also the physical/battling profile. More of those profiles will help the team.
I think most of our "leaders" dont understand the system and arent comfortable telling someone else what to do for it. Lisandro is doing it. Casemiro and De Ligt I havent seen doing it since the system change. Its completely understandable when its a system they arent familliar with, they are learning too. Unfortunately its exactly the time when you do need some leadership
Ugarte is familliar with the system. Hopefully he will speak up
Yeah I'd agree with that.
Very well said. Which is why I am banging on the fact that we aren't just one or two or three good transfers away from anything. A new spine will develop on its own when group dynamics emerge. And for somebody to demand a leading role, he probably can't really be in question himself all the time. Doesn't mean that only the best players can be leading figures but it certainly helps in terms of respect. You can't buy respect and you don't really help it by extending players because they theoretically have the a suitable character.
That is true but saying it shouldn't matter isn't hitting the point I feel. I mean, it depends on how one player would play shit while following instructions. Hard to believe too many scenarios. But in principle, you are right, it isn't a question of how well a player is playing but how well he is playing within the instructions. But at the same time, I think in groups full of millionaires and young men, it would certainly help if playing well and playing well within the instructions would come together.
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Overall - it is all good and well looking at the squad and what it is lacking but that still shouldn't be the reason to burn money only to "not lose" a player. While you need leaders on the pitch, also no player should be bigger than the club. And from the moment where a player is supposed to be sold, he certainly shouldn't be in a position where his loss would be a big issue.
We are starving for even one player aside from Amad, who can actually go past somebody on a football pitch and cause danger to the opposition. Let's start with that, Ruben.
what do you reckon he should do to get them running? deep heat on their bell-ends?
Even if we had leaders on the pitch, you can't make the others follow if the drive and ambition to succeed, and the pride required to maintain a certain standard isn't there. Some just ain't got it, earning 4 million a year can do that to a guy. Unfathomable wealth at such a young age has got to have psychological effects, the feeling you have made it, regardless of what happens on the pitch. At a club like Utd, where the expectations are huge and a winning mentality is essential, making multi millionaires out of 20something men, probably isn't the best idea. But what're gonna do?
The manager needs players on the pitch and in training to reinforce standards and ideas. It's clear looking at this lot, they don't have any standard bearers on matchdays or in training.
We just keep buying raw kids and has-beens looking for a retirement home. This is the result. We need more players in their peak years, like Bruno when we bought him.
He's absolutely spot on. The fact none of us can name a worthy captain or vice captain for the squad is a damning indictment.
I mean in terms of signings.
If you put VDS,Neville,Evra,Rio,Vidic,Keane,Scholes,Giggs,Ronaldo,Rooney and Cantona all in the team today we may actually go places.
Bruno captain of our winning sides? 
feck me, he’d be lucky to get into their sides.
He’s been probably our best player on average since he arrived but boy is the bar low. Plus I still haven’t forgotten how much of a leader he was when we got walloped by 7 against Liverpool. He should have been transfer listed
feck me, he’d be lucky to get into their sides.He’s been probably our best player on average since he arrived but boy is the bar low. Plus I still haven’t forgotten how much of a leader he was when we got walloped by 7 against Liverpool. He should have been transfer listed
I've been complaining about this for ages.
Maguire and Bruno have been our only real Captain material players we've had the past four/five years.
I had high hopes when we signed Casimero but he's relatively quiet on the pitch.
I'm hoping de Ligt over time will develop into a leader on the pitch and fulfill his potential with us.
Time will tell. It still won't be enough though.
A far cry from that 1993/1994 Double Winning team.
A team full of not only top players but strong, demanding, forceful personalities on the pitch too.
Maguire and Bruno have been our only real Captain material players we've had the past four/five years.
I had high hopes when we signed Casimero but he's relatively quiet on the pitch.
I'm hoping de Ligt over time will develop into a leader on the pitch and fulfill his potential with us.
Time will tell. It still won't be enough though.
A far cry from that 1993/1994 Double Winning team.
A team full of not only top players but strong, demanding, forceful personalities on the pitch too.
I dunno, we may need some subs too
These cowardly players would love to be under the bus as it’ll give them a place to hide.
agree 100%
we are badly missing these tough competitors too - players like Robson, Whiteside, Hughes, Ince, Keane, Butt, Scholes, Stam, Vidic, Rooney, Teves
thought Martinez had it but he's been meek this season..... a lack of character and fight in current squad. You can see how we seem to be bullied regularly
we are badly missing these tough competitors too - players like Robson, Whiteside, Hughes, Ince, Keane, Butt, Scholes, Stam, Vidic, Rooney, Teves
thought Martinez had it but he's been meek this season..... a lack of character and fight in current squad. You can see how we seem to be bullied regularly
Indeed. It's been this way for a while now. Too many shirkers allowed to get away with giving the bare minimum. I would have thought that Casemiro, with his haul of medals would be captain material but he's just as lost in this set up as the rest.
Its not that it was finally said.
Its that the NEW MANAGER has said it to the world.
Its that the NEW MANAGER has said it to the world.
When Bruno is not playing - who is good enough to take the captains armband?
Back then you could arguably pass in through the whole starting 11 but now except Bruno i cant think of a single one.
Even Bruno himself, who i really appreciate as a footballer is not necessarily captain material which shows how much our squad has regressed of leaders.
Back then you could arguably pass in through the whole starting 11 but now except Bruno i cant think of a single one.
Even Bruno himself, who i really appreciate as a footballer is not necessarily captain material which shows how much our squad has regressed of leaders.
Not just leadership but grit, resiliance, and high professional standards
It's not news, is it? I remember the first interview he gave in which talked about lacking leaders like Keane in the squad. He has rightly been pretty consistent on the lack of leadership in the squad. We have seen our team repeatedly crumble when put under little bit of pressure. There is no one on the pitch to calm things down and guide our players through. Bruno, our new Captain Marvel, unravels as soon as things go awry and acts like a petulant child. If he's the best we have to captain the team then the less said about the rest's leadership qualities the better.
It’s hard to buy leadership and it’s also hard for someone to walk in to a new environment and demand the respect of multi millionaires who think they have made it. You’d have to be a special character and have accolades and money beyond what any of them have. Then have the character to lead the, and show it on the pitch.
We tried it with Ronaldo, he called them out on it said they didn’t desire it or listen to him so if he can’t do it then there is no one on this earth that could.
You look at some of the people like DeLigt, Martinez, Casemiro, Maguire, Bruno you’d look at those characters and think those are your leaders but it seems like they’ve had it beaten out of them or don’t want to step up.
If there are people in the squad that don’t want to listen then they need to go, and the guys mentioned above need to step up and lead. If they see an issue deal with it.
We tried it with Ronaldo, he called them out on it said they didn’t desire it or listen to him so if he can’t do it then there is no one on this earth that could.
You look at some of the people like DeLigt, Martinez, Casemiro, Maguire, Bruno you’d look at those characters and think those are your leaders but it seems like they’ve had it beaten out of them or don’t want to step up.
If there are people in the squad that don’t want to listen then they need to go, and the guys mentioned above need to step up and lead. If they see an issue deal with it.