We are a lazy team with no intensity

[Marwood]

Well it means they have to press less, City are basically always at the bottom of the table for distance travelled.

Ok but surely then the answer for a team like United is to join them in looking after the ball not just work more?

What we're saying here is because we don't look after the ball the answer is to run harder.

No, the answer is to get or play players who take care of the ball.

There's only so much running a team can do. I'd be interested to see the stats from this weekend in terms of distance covered. I bet there's barely any difference between us and league average.

 

[Hammondo]

Ok but surely then the answer for a team like United is to join them in looking after the ball not just work more?

What we're saying here is because we don't look after the ball the answer is to run harder.

No, the answer is to get or play players who take care of the ball.

There's only so much running a team can do. I'd be interested to see the stats from this weekend in terms of distance covered. I bet there's barely any difference between us and league average.

Oh yea, getting control of the ball more is key, but we don't have the players to do it.

 

[The Hilton]

Opta for The Analyst. We are generally taking too many risks and we are getting very little in return. Sometimes, we are not good at taking our chances (Spurs game, for example), some others it all looks disjointed and hopeless. I'm not angry at ETH, and i think it's disingenuous to make absolute judgements because everything that could have gone wrong thus far has gone wrong. But i am very disappointed. I look at the 30 passes that led to Brighton's second goal and at the 3 almost identical goals they scored and i can't help but shake my head at how far away we are from that.

Fair enough, their model looks to be very generous with regard to central chances on the edge of the box, 0.29 seems excessive for their second goal. Interesting site though, I'll bookmark that one.

We do seem a bit disjointed I agree, but that's to be expected sometimes. A big issue is that the team seem to be able to press reasonably well, but when we concede we end up in a hybrid situation where some players revert back to sitting off and trying to play the ball in behind to Rashford all the time (including Rashford himself). Spurs and today are great examples.

Still, I don't actually think we're that far away, the pieces are there but they aren't quite fitting together yet.

 

[flappyjay]

Sure some players are worse than others (Rashford) but as a team we are simply too lethargic. This is the build up for the third goal against Brighton, its almost 2 minute long and I think theres only 1 moment in the whole move we put any sort of a decent press on a player with the ball. Its near the touchline when Casemiro presses two players and Reguillon almost wins it back.



30 passes and 3 were challenged. This is not an issue of 1 or 2 players its a team thing. Any team can come to OT and give us a game simply by working harder than us. For all the plaudits Peps City get for their on the ball skills, you will hardly ever see a passage of play like this against them. I thought ETH would fix this but it seems unfixable.

The likes of Brighton and Man City don't press for 90 minutes either. The key difference is their ability to keep the ball and have the other team do the running and tire said team out. That way they save energy and can still press with high intensity well into the 2nd half. We press get the ball quickly launch an attack (best transition team in the world),lose the ball and chase, eventually you get tired.

 

[RedStarUnited]

The likes of Brighton and Man City don't press for 90 minutes either. The key difference is their ability to keep the ball and have the other team do the running and tire said team out. That way they save energy and can still press with high intensity well into the 2nd half. We press get the ball quickly launch an attack (best transition team in the world),lose the ball and chase, eventually you get tired.

Said it already before, the two go hand in hand. City are pretty intense in trying to win the ball back quickly. They can then get on the ball and start passing.

 

[fallengt]

Rashford was by a mile our best attacker that game. The only one Brighton was afraid of. Nearly assisted Hojlund twice. Hit the woodwork.

He was not the problem.

Also conceded at least 3 goal by now, directly from his gently touch that he called "pressing"

 

[Drizzle]

Also conceded at least 3 goal by now, directly from his gently touch that he called "pressing"

Holy shit, so he's responsible for us conceding 3 goals! You guys are unbelievable. I'm convinced you're all on a wind-up now.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Sure some players are worse than others (Rashford) but as a team we are simply too lethargic. This is the build up for the third goal against Brighton, its almost 2 minute long and I think theres only 1 moment in the whole move we put any sort of a decent press on a player with the ball. Its near the touchline when Casemiro presses two players and Reguillon almost wins it back.



30 passes and 3 were challenged. This is not an issue of 1 or 2 players its a team thing. Any team can come to OT and give us a game simply by working harder than us. For all the plaudits Peps City get for their on the ball skills, you will hardly ever see a passage of play like this against them. I thought ETH would fix this but it seems unfixable.

Couple of stand out points. McT (I think it’s him) getting sold is what gives Brighton all that ground, poor marking and doesn’t even grab the shirt/give a cheap freekick to stop the play (which is what City, Arsenal etc do).

Then United generally do ok, Brighton don’t go anywhere for a while and there’s no real penetration despite how crisp the passing is. Issue then comes where Bruno gets a bit impatient, leaves the man he’s on to close the ball with no support. Brighton pop it round him to the player Bruno was on, who then has time and space to switch the play and drift completely untracked (very very slowly I’ll add) into our box and has quite a simple finish. I do think the pass was a bit lucky for the goal now I watch it but I don’t think the issue is challenging for passes, it’s just being disciplined off the ball.

 

[IrishRedDevil]

We aren't street smart. That was screaming out for a tactical foul.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Fair enough, their model looks to be very generous with regard to central chances on the edge of the box, 0.29 seems excessive for their second goal. Interesting site though, I'll bookmark that one.

We do seem a bit disjointed I agree, but that's to be expected sometimes. A big issue is that the team seem to be able to press reasonably well, but when we concede we end up in a hybrid situation where some players revert back to sitting off and trying to play the ball in behind to Rashford all the time (including Rashford himself). Spurs and today are great examples.

Still, I don't actually think we're that far away, the pieces are there but they aren't quite fitting together yet.

The finish from Gross was more inside the box than on the edge of it. His feint that sent both defenders the other way was on the edge of the box, the shot not so much. But you do raise a valid point regarding the different models. It's surprising from Understat because they are usually very generous with their stats. It may not be a 0.30xG chance (which is the bar for a great opportunity), but with both defenders out of the picture and the whole goal to aim at, i tend to believe that it's closer to that than to a chance that finds the back of the net once in every ten attempts (which is what Understat suggests).

Other than that, i want to share your optimism. I'm currently caught between two minds. A part of me wants us to keep pushing because, if we somehow survive the hits, we'll have taken a step forward in some key areas. What i don't want us to do is go back to a mid-block and hope to win games on the counter. It may save our season again (it did last year), but it's like trying to fight chronic arthritis only with cortisone. Instant pain relief vs proper treatment. On the other hand, i see ETH making other baffling choices. You'd expect from an Ajax manager to at least respect some of the basic principles of positional play. As the days go by, we seem to be moving further away from any notion of that. I don't know what to think.

About the high press, i've argued elsewhere that it was one of his biggest weapons and also one of his weaknesses at Ajax. It's more man-to-man oriented, and that's why (don't just look at yesterday's game), it looks more effective when we press from the front (i.e., in a dead ball situation) and the opposition players' positions are more fixed and our lads can work with a script instead of making decisions on the fly. But the nature of this press makes you vulnerable if one of the chains breaks. He's got big wins and big defeats by playing this way. Whether he can turn it into a strength for us in the PL, it remains to be seen.

 

[Lentwood]

Rashford was by a mile our best attacker that game. The only one Brighton was afraid of. Nearly assisted Hojlund twice. Hit the woodwork.

He was not the problem.

That IS the problem in a nutshell. The idea that Rahsford had a couple of good moments so can be exempt from working hard/contributing to the team's overall press and/or defensive effort.

That stopped being acceptable at the top level ten years ago. You can't just play in moments, as an individual.

If Rashford scores 40 goals this season, I might, might accept the argument that we can tolerate his laziness. I'm not going to tolerate the strolling around and the terrible body language because he had a shot which hit the post.

 

[The Hilton]

The finish from Gross was more inside the box than on the edge of it. His feint that sent both defenders the other way was on the edge of the box, the shot not so much. But you do raise a valid point regarding the different models. It's surprising from Understat because they are usually very generous with their stats. It may not be a 0.30xG chance (which is the bar for a great opportunity), but with both defenders out of the picture and the whole goal to aim at, i tend to believe that it's closer to that than to a chance that finds the back of the net once in every ten attempts (which is what Understat suggests).

Other than that, i want to share your optimism. I'm currently caught between two minds. A part of me wants us to keep pushing because, if we somehow survive the hits, we'll have taken a step forward in some key areas. What i don't want us to do is go back to a mid-block and hope to win games on the counter. It may save our season again (it did last year), but it's like trying to fight chronic arthritis only with cortisone. Instant pain relief vs proper treatment. On the other hand, i see ETH making other baffling choices. You'd expect from an Ajax manager to at least respect some of the basic principles of positional play. As the days go by, we seem to be moving further away from any notion of that. I don't know what to think.

About the high press, i've argued elsewhere that it was one of his biggest weapons and also one of his weaknesses at Ajax. It's more man-to-man oriented, and that's why (don't just look at yesterday's game), it looks more effective when we press from the front (i.e., in a dead ball situation) and the opposition players' positions are more fixed and our lads can work with a script instead of making decisions on the fly. But the nature of this press makes you vulnerable if one of the chains breaks. He's got big wins and big defeats by playing this way. Whether he can turn it into a strength for us in the PL, it remains to be seen.

Maybe we can agree it's somewhere between 0.29 and 0.11, but we're getting into debating xG models which is gonna make us both look like right nerds!

I agree with you about the mid-block situation, we had to adopt that last year as a somewhat "in-between" step as the players we had simply couldn't play the system ETH is trying to implement. As for this season, we're clearly trying to adopt more of the principles, but players are struggling to put them in to practice for long enough periods. That's somewhat to be expected though, as a lot of our best players are used to the low block counter style we played for years beforehand, and so it doesn't come easily to them - Rangnick only managed to get 45 minutes of pressing out of this team before they downed tools.

As for chains breaking and decision making, that'll come with time. To begin with we need our players to get the reps getting it right against fixed predictable opponents, the better decision making will come with time, experience, and coaching, but the latter needs to wait until the basic fundamentals become more like second nature. Gotta walk before you can run and all that.

 

[DLE]

Sure some players are worse than others (Rashford) but as a team we are simply too lethargic. This is the build up for the third goal against Brighton, its almost 2 minute long and I think theres only 1 moment in the whole move we put any sort of a decent press on a player with the ball. Its near the touchline when Casemiro presses two players and Reguillon almost wins it back.



30 passes and 3 were challenged. This is not an issue of 1 or 2 players its a team thing. Any team can come to OT and give us a game simply by working harder than us. For all the plaudits Peps City get for their on the ball skills, you will hardly ever see a passage of play like this against them. I thought ETH would fix this but it seems unfixable.

Great post. Amazing and sad observation.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I think the issue is that we haven’t bothered with things like possession, high octane, high line football for the past decade so it’s impossible to switch it on all of a sudden. It’s going to be a long and painful process to go from years of hit team on the break and individual moments of quality to a well rounded front foot team. Whether we are on the right track to head in that direction is up for debate but we’ve spent too long doing one thing to expect doing a completely different thing to be anything but very difficult. I do think some players might be beyond repair in this regard - again a player who is coached to play a certain toll the age of 26/28 is gonna to find it very hard to change tracks.

Essentially we are paying for our mistakes and are going to have to put in a lot of work to put things right. Part of me just wishes we would just stop buying big and instead investing mostly in younger players as they’re much more adaptable.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Sure some players are worse than others (Rashford) but as a team we are simply too lethargic. This is the build up for the third goal against Brighton, its almost 2 minute long and I think theres only 1 moment in the whole move we put any sort of a decent press on a player with the ball. Its near the touchline when Casemiro presses two players and Reguillon almost wins it back.



30 passes and 3 were challenged. This is not an issue of 1 or 2 players its a team thing. Any team can come to OT and give us a game simply by working harder than us. For all the plaudits Peps City get for their on the ball skills, you will hardly ever see a passage of play like this against them. I thought ETH would fix this but it seems unfixable.

Bruno is the only one busting a gut. The rest are like traffic cones watching and observing.

 

[stw2022]

There's maybe one too many individuals who aren't really team players.

 

[kouroux]

Bruno is the only one busting a gut. The rest are like traffic cones watching and observing.

I honestly think it's not because they're lazy but more like they're gassed. If we can't recover by passing it around, pressing all game long will kill our stamina.

 

[oz insomniac]

Let’s be honest, any team that consistently plays McTominlay is asked to be found out. He is an academy graduate but that is the only positive relating to his selection, can’t remember one game where he was dominant or really effective.

Comes back to silly wages paid on extensions for some reason by Woodward and his acolytes, making it difficult to move players on. No depth overall as the funds needed to add to the roster is tied to getting rid of these extended players, terrible decisions on the back of the Glazers allowing someone so out of depth to run this club is a major factor in who is available. Sad but true.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Having seen the analysis of that goal it seems our setup to press was fine but the intensity levels within key moments was laughable. McTominay letting his man waltz past him was unforgivable and aside from Bruno and Casemiero running out in frustration nobody really showed the desired intent.

Honestly I have no idea how you fix it. You can’t drop them all so you have to just double down on them with a few key personnel changes.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I honestly think it's not because they're lazy but more like they're gassed. If we can't recover by passing it around, pressing all game long will kill our stamina.

But we had Brighton the absolute runaround in the first half an hour. They were on the ropes but didn’t fall apart and stop doing the basics or feel any exhaustion. Mentally gassed from being behind at home and not able to press - maybe, but this wasn’t the end of the game and fit athletes should be able to do it. Not to mention the more intensely you press the less you have to chase which is what this lot doesn’t get.

 

[izak]

Having seen the analysis of that goal it seems our setup to press was fine but the intensity levels within key moments was laughable. McTominay letting his man waltz past him was unforgivable and aside from Bruno and Casemiero running out in frustration nobody really showed the desired intent.

Honestly I have no idea how you fix it. You can’t drop them all so you have to just double down on them with a few key personnel changes.

We may talk down on Antony and how bad his final decision making, but Antony is never letting Lampty ghost pass him like that without a fight.

 

[MadDogg]

Yep, McTominay was the worst all game. Never chased back properly. Clearly he's not arsed after it was made clear he wasn't rated by ETH.

Scott has always done that. It just somehow gets ignored and he has this myth around him about being a 'workhorse'. Once the opposition get in behind him he's terrible at actually getting back to help out.

A few years back I looked up a bunch of stats of about 26 PL midfielders (all the midfielders for the top teams plus a few other notable ones) and from memory he was in the bottom six for overall defensive work (pressing, tackling, interceptions). Slightly ahead of Matic and Pogba at the time who were even worse, but still well below average. We were basically relying on Fred (who was either second or third best) to do everything. I think Scott's actually improved a little since then but it's still laughable how many people talk about him as if he's a particularly hard worker.

 

[fergiewherearethou]

Having seen the analysis of that goal it seems our setup to press was fine but the intensity levels within key moments was laughable. McTominay letting his man waltz past him was unforgivable and aside from Bruno and Casemiero running out in frustration nobody really showed the desired intent.

Honestly I have no idea how you fix it. You can’t drop them all so you have to just double down on them with a few key personnel changes.

Exactly ETH has instructed the players to press and stay higher up but we have a very slow midfield. Eriksen and Mct are very slow and incapable of winning 1 vs 1's without the ball, Casemiro is not getting any younger and Bruno is the only player who runs at the opposition and at least tries.
We do not have aggressive enough players who are actually capable of cutting a passing lanes or dispossess a decent opponent. That's why we seem like living goalposts in the pressing phase.

 

[Marwood]

But we had Brighton the absolute runaround in the first half an hour. They were on the ropes but didn’t fall apart and stop doing the basics or feel any exhaustion. Mentally gassed from being behind at home and not able to press - maybe, but this wasn’t the end of the game and fit athletes should be able to do it. Not to mention the more intensely you press the less you have to chase which is what this lot doesn’t get.

Big difference is Brighton scored after being outplayed for 30 mins.

If we scored at that point, then we get to keep the ball and Brighton suddenly have to start chasing more.

It's a cliché but goals change games. For all the talk of tactics and pressing the most pivotal moments are goals.

 

[Trex]

we started four midfielders against Brighton among them Eriksen was the best under pressure. He's actually worst at this than the likes of Pogba and Matic were (and they weren't perfect either). If any of those midfielders were on the ball I'll run at them full pelt knowing they wouldn't know what to do with the ball.
This I think is our biggest midfield problem. The problem at the moment isn't our intensity its how we work the ball.
Compare the sort of chances we were creating to Brighton. Ours were quick dash forward while theirs were well worked passing moves, because they show composure, ability to evade pressure and spatial awareness.
I hope Amrabat and Mainoo bring some of this qualities to the team otherwise we'll just have to give up attempting to play on the front foot. Form a mid-block and counter attack.

 

[crossy1686]

This video from Four Four Two essentially backs up the point this thread is making:

 

[kouroux]

But we had Brighton the absolute runaround in the first half an hour. They were on the ropes but didn’t fall apart and stop doing the basics or feel any exhaustion. Mentally gassed from being behind at home and not able to press - maybe, but this wasn’t the end of the game and fit athletes should be able to do it. Not to mention the more intensely you press the less you have to chase which is what this lot doesn’t get.

Which the theory that our team just lost its legs. It's happened far too often not to be a coincidence, if we were able to keep the ball better for larger periods of time throughout the entire, we'd press better when it'd be our turn to do so. Casemiro+Eriksen isn't midfield that's designed to keep chasing after balls all game long

 

[Sky1981]

If you have no problem with Rashford display, then maybe 6th is our level. Stop complaining, let's all cheer up and applaud the team nonstop.

Give him the armband, another 450k / week wages and chant VIVA Rashford

Might as well make him player / manager

 

[Sky1981]

The likes of Brighton and Man City don't press for 90 minutes either. The key difference is their ability to keep the ball and have the other team do the running and tire said team out. That way they save energy and can still press with high intensity well into the 2nd half. We press get the ball quickly launch an attack (best transition team in the world),lose the ball and chase, eventually you get tired.

You don't need full intensity press for 90 minutes, you just got to be smart with positioning.

You don't need to chase for the balls, you just need to close down the avenue for a pass.

Pressing is more about intelligence and tactics rather than blindly chasing after the ball

 

[Lyng]

For this type of tactic to work you need everyone to press every time we dont have the ball. We dont really have the players for that. And I dont mind energy wise only, I also mean in terms of reading the passing lines and closing them down. A lot of our players lack basic football intelligence.
Then you look at Brighton and Man Citys tactic which is more about taking care of the ball and passing safe while finding an opening. Highly effective because they dont have to waste a lot of energy chasing the ball.
Problem is we dont really have the ´players for that either. We have some players who excel in pressing or counter attacking setups mixed with some that work well under a more controlled playstyle. We dont really have a team that fits a system.
And this is why it all falls back to the ownership. We have not had a clear strategy from the club ever since Fergie left. We are a mix of ideas and players from vastly different managers. Which is also why sacking the manager is not the answer.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

We may talk down on Antony and how bad his final decision making, but Antony is never letting Lampty ghost pass him like that without a fight.

That’s one thing I love about Antony - his is excellent off the ball.

 

[UpWithRivers]

The million dollar question is why? I'm not sure I buy this excuse that all our players are sht. Did you see Brightons team? They made 6 changes and were bought for 16 mill. The whole team bought for the cost of Dalot! You telling me Wellbeck, Lallana etc would be courted by top teams? Would you swap their players for ours? Except Mitoma most of their really top special players have left. Individually the Brighton team we faced was nothing special. We go on about Casemiro being done because he's over 30. Lallana is 35. Wellbeck 32. Gross is 32.
So its down to tactics, coaching and attitude and how in form and fit our players are. In that 30 goal sequence the players are obviously not trying. Its half arsed. If its an instruction by Ten Haag then he has lost his mind. If its fitness then the staff need to be sacked because 90 percent of other teamsseem to be fine. If it was the players. Then he's done. Id walk out if I were him. Because it wasn't just one of them it was 90 percent of them doing that.

 

[Leftback99]

The kind of squad we have. Just there for the easy ride.

 

[Ricardo de la Vega]

I honestly think it's not because they're lazy but more like they're gassed. If we can't recover by passing it around, pressing all game long will kill our stamina.

We're six games into the season how can they be gassed??? They're just lazy they don't want to press with intensity. If you remember they wouldn't for Ragnick either. It's absolutely shocking and suggests the players don't want to be here and aren't buying into ETHs approach which is a huge worry.

 

[Adisa]

Scotty getting rinsed by their fullback and then not breaking a half arsed job to get back.

And he's supposed to be one of the hard-working/honest players.

There is a poison at this club. I keep saying it.

 

[HJ12]

This video from Four Four Two essentially backs up the point this thread is making:

This is really tragic. We are in deep trouble.

 

[Big Ray]

This is really tragic. We are in deep trouble.

That highlights perfectly the total lack of effort witnessed throughout the game. Rashfords body language is a complete disgrace. Mctominays awful attempt to press and chase back on the far side like he couldn’t care less. If one player isn’t doing it, it spreads like a cancer and the rest just stop knowing it’s a waste of time. And we are where we are. Watching this at the ground from high up, the first person I noticed showing no appetite to chase down was rashford, the other front two were pressing well at the start. He just doesn’t GAF and needs a massive kick up the arse.

 

[crossy1686]

This is really tragic. We are in deep trouble.

As always, it's cultural with us. You've got players like Sancho dictating to the manager when they'll play or even turn up, and there's zero consequences for them. The manager eventually gets sacked and they get reintroduced back into the team to throw the next manager under the bus. For us to be successful again, we need to allow the manager to clear out all the players he wants to in the summer and set an example to the ones that are on the fence of the power struggle. Buy in, work hard or feck off.

 

[kouroux]

We're six games into the season how can they be gassed??? They're just lazy they don't want to press with intensity. If you remember they wouldn't for Ragnick either. It's absolutely shocking and suggests the players don't want to be here and aren't buying into ETHs approach which is a huge worry.

Ask yourself why many of them are already injured then ? They're absolutely gassed, whatever the reason, it is fecking easy to see it.
Do you really think a very strict manager like ETH would put up with pure laziness ? Do you not see how he's dealt with Sancho ?
It's so easy for us, from the comfort of our living rooms, to label all of them as lazy