WC All-time All-Stars 1st Round: Crappy vs Aldo

Based on WC prime, whose team is more likely to win?

  • Total voters
    29
  • Poll closed .
Crappy's side looks very balanced to me - and the Kopa/Fontaine combination is the icing on the cake, quite perfect.

The main issue with Aldo's (inherited) side is the back three/five. I don't buy it at all. The older Maldini? World Cup Rijkaard? Thuram the CB (not the '98 version)? That simply isn't strong enough for me. The best player in that five is Djalma Santos - and he shouldn't be, if that makes any sense (no slight on Djalma, by the way).
 
If anyone is interested in these Opta stats for the past worldcups, here you go:

Pippa said:
http://optasports.com/

Scroll down to the bottom right and there should be a widget that shows Maradona's stats in 1986 and Pelé's stats in 1970. You can change the World Cup from any of them between 1966-2010, and it has stats on every player.

Really useful, and free.
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It's your fault, you asked for a source :lol:
 
Not sure they are correct anyway.. Why are there so few aerial duels?
 
Wow Crappy/Pippa what a team! If you pick up wingers you will have a team that could win a Semi Final without the Quarter to Semi Draft.

Garrincha being available this is going to be a nightmare of a team to play for anybody.
 
Annahnomoss said:
Wow Crappy/Pippa what a team! If you pick up wingers you will have a team that could win a Semi Final without the Quarter to Semi Draft.

Garrincha being available this is going to be a nightmare of a team to play for anybody.
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Yeah those partnerships should be able to go all the way in this draft, as should Vogts, Krol and Buffon.
 
Yeah, the only salt in the sore is the wingers who I think are lackluster at drawing the attention needed to really let Kopa/Fontaine shine. A 5 man defense that is better organized than this would have a field day against him and I can see some people picking that up.

So maybe a 1st and 2nd picked winger will mean they are impossible to defend against. Kopa/Fontaine/Garrincha/X would be absolutely unstoppable in the offense.
 
Yep agree Gio, its the other 4 who need upgraded if possible.

Not sure Silva/Dunga will hack it in the final though, depends how the rest of the teams shape up within the constraints. It's a cracking pair for the first round, quarters, and probably the semi's, but by the final the opposition will be top notch you would imagine.
 
Theon said:
Yep agree Gio, its the other 4 who need upgraded if possible.

Not sure Silva/Dunga will hack it in the final though, depends how the rest of the teams shape up within the constraints. It's a cracking pair for the first round, quarters, and probably the semi's, but by the final the opposition will be top notch you would imagine.
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Yeah that's probably fair.

Plenty of room for strengthening on the flanks for crappy/pippa - Garrincha, Lato, Rivaldo, Rivelino, Iniesta, Stoichkov... tasty.
 
Gio said:
Yeah that's probably fair.

Plenty of room for strengthening on the flanks for crappy/pippa - Garrincha, Lato, Rivaldo, Rivelino, Iniesta, Stoichkov... tasty.
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Yup it really is, and they might actually get Garrincha as well as they pick third :eek:
 
Theon said:
Yup it really is, and they might actually get Garrincha as well as they pick third :eek:
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Antohan won't pick Garrincha as he is the opposite of his theme and Balu has Jairzinho who is the second best winger in this draft after Garrincha so that is a no-go.

Basically it is 100% they will get Garrincha and that is scary as hell, I mean they had an insanely good first draft and the second draft is fitting them perfectly.
 
Someone really has to bring up some points about Platini whether he is going out or not. Considered to have among the best passing any player has ever had. Averaged 25-30 goals a season as an AM in Juventus, won the top scorer of La Liga 3 years in a row as an AM.

The Italian league boosted some of the greatest defensive teams in history during the 80's/90's so it surely came against great opposition.

WC '82 was absolutely World-Class and certainly doesn't look out of depth in a draft like this even if he drops a couple of positions in rank. He showcased all his overall play but didn't carry on the extreme goal-threat to the WC's.

He carried France to two World Cup Semi Finals in a row and the '86 one he was injured and playing on injections.

Platini made more passes in his 5 games in '82 than Maradona did in all tournament of '86. Platini had a 86% passing accuracy overall and 82%(!!!) on the opponents half - Maradona had 80% overall and 67% on the opponents half.

Even Cruyff had less passes per minute and a much lower accuracy and he is also one of those candidates for the "best passer in history".

Just thought that Platini got a bit forgotten for his unique ability as an AM, I mean the only comparable passer in WC history in terms of just amount of passes/accuracy is Iniesta of '10 who had even more average passes and almost identical success-rate.

Apart from those, Zidane had a similar amount of passes but less success rate on opposition half and Pele had just a marginally worse success-rate but far fewer passes.
 
I think Thuram 06 is somewhat underrated. 98 grabbed the headlines with that brace against Croatia but 06 more than meet the requirements of an excellent CB.
Not enough credit given to Ademir and Jair too, who were among the top performers at WC 50 but paid the price here for not ending up with a winner's medal
 
Annahnomoss said:
Someone really has to bring up some points about Platini whether he is going out or not. Considered to have among the best passing any player has ever had. Averaged 25-30 goals a season as an AM in Juventus, won the top scorer of La Liga 3 years in a row as an AM.

The Italian league boosted some of the greatest defensive teams in history during the 80's/90's so it surely came against great opposition.

WC '82 was absolutely World-Class and certainly doesn't look out of depth in a draft like this even if he drops a couple of positions in rank. He showcased all his overall play but didn't carry on the extreme goal-threat to the WC's.

He carried France to two World Cup Semi Finals in a row and the '86 one he was injured and playing on injections.

Platini made more passes in his 5 games in '82 than Maradona did in all tournament of '86. Platini had a 86% passing accuracy overall and 82%(!!!) on the opponents half - Maradona had 80% overall and 67% on the opponents half.

Even Cruyff had less passes per minute and a much lower accuracy and he is also one of those candidates for the "best passer in history".

Just thought that Platini got a bit forgotten for his unique ability as an AM, I mean the only comparable passer in WC history in terms of just amount of passes/accuracy is Iniesta of '10 who had even more average passes and almost identical success-rate.

Apart from those, Zidane had a similar amount of passes but less success rate on opposition half and Pele had just a marginally worse success-rate but far fewer passes.
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Platini was considered Maradona's Ronaldo for a while in the 80's, surprised how underrated he is.
 
Snipers Breath said:
Platini was considered Maradona's Ronaldo for a while in the 80's, surprised how underrated he is.
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Really good comparison to be honest. Platini was considered the better player many seasons(83,84,85).

Of course it is a WC draft, but Platini is still at the legendary level above almost everybody. Two assists and two goals in 82 is very comparable with Zidane in 98/06. One is rated here as a bit of a failure and the other as a true WC peaker.

Goals/Assists of course means nothing, but considering Platini and Zidane had comparable chances created(Slight edge for Zizou) and Platini had a more accurate passing.

Platini may be the best non-winning AM?
 
Annahnomoss said:
Really good comparison to be honest. Platini was considered the better player many seasons(83,84,85).

Of course it is a WC draft, but Platini is still at the legendary level above almost everybody. Two assists and two goals in 82 is very comparable with Zidane in 98/06. One is rated here as a bit of a failure and the other as a true WC peaker.

Goals/Assists of course means nothing, but considering Platini and Zidane had comparable chances created(Slight edge for Zizou) and Platini had a more accurate passing.

Platini may be the best non-winning AM?
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I think Platini the issue is that he showed elsewhere that he can play better than he did at the WC. For Zidane, that is not a question at all. So it is fair to point that his absolute peak was not at the WC and this is a below his best Platini. Is that version, better than many others? ofcourse.

I agree with Balu that if you took into account only the WC, then Kopa should be considered better for this draft.
 
Annahnomoss said:
Antohan won't pick Garrincha as he is the opposite of his theme and Balu has Jairzinho who is the second best winger in this draft after Garrincha so that is a no-go.

Basically it is 100% they will get Garrincha and that is scary as hell, I mean they had an insanely good first draft and the second draft is fitting them perfectly.
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I still think Anto will pick Garrincha. With all the constraints, the drafting would be tricky.
 
crappycraperson said:
I think Platini the issue is that he showed elsewhere that he can play better than he did at the WC. For Zidane, that is not a question at all. So it is fair to point that his absolute peak was not at the WC and this is a below his best Platini. Is that version, better than many others? ofcourse.

I agree with Balu that if you took into account only the WC, then Kopa should be considered better for this draft.
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I don't disagree with anything you said at all. Just odd that someone so good hardly got a word and as the draft was over already I figured I'd highlight him.

Even if his peak was outside of WC, he is one of the best AM's especially considering he is a non-winner.

I do agree that Kopa is better than Platini in this draft though, even though it is very hard to judge. Someone like Ballack statistically trashes Matthäus with his 7 assists/goals versus Matthäus 3 open play goals and 0 assists. Still there is no doubt in anybody's eyes that Ballack is by far the worse player and performer even considering WC prime.

Difficult draft of course for both the voters and managers in this sense.
 
Annahnomoss said:
I don't disagree with anything you said at all. Just odd that someone so good hardly got a word and as the draft was over already I figured I'd highlight him.

Even if his peak was outside of WC, he is one of the best AM's especially considering he is a non-winner.

I do agree that Kopa is better than Platini in this draft though, even though it is very hard to judge. Someone like Ballack statistically trashes Matthäus with his 7 assists/goals versus Matthäus 3 open play goals and 0 assists. Still there is no doubt in anybody's eyes that Ballack is by far the worse player and performer even considering WC prime.

Difficult draft of course for both the voters and managers in this sense.
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Matthäus is a caf draft favourite. I myself rate him a lot but I think he carries much more sway that he should in these drafts.
 
crappycraperson said:
Matthäus is a caf draft favourite. I myself rate him a lot but I think he carries much more sway that he should in these drafts.
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In a worldcup draft he really should. He was outstanding in '90, still think it's a joke that he didn't win the golden ball.
 
Mmmm thanks for the sentiment TITO but I don't think so. Lack of wow players will catch on at some point. Will be tough against teams that have Maradona, Pele, Ronaldo, Cryuff, Eusebio. I think I am committed to Kopa-Fontaine till the final unless I get a pop at Maradona at some point.
 
crappycraperson said:
Mmmm thanks for the sentiment TITO but I don't think so. Lack of wow players will catch on at some point. Will be tough against teams that have Maradona, Pele, Ronaldo, Cryuff, Eusebio. I think I am not committed to Kopa-Fontaine till the final unless I get a pop at Maradona at some point.
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I got excited when it was pointed out you'll get Garrincha. Pretty much all the teams in the last 8 will be exceptional but you're definitely looking good mate.
 
Snipers Breath said:
I will check the drafts, but i think he should be rated in the same league as Cruyff, Zidane etc, is he?
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Others can correct me but he has been rated better than Zidane and given Cryuff has generally been underrated, better than him as well
 
Snipers Breath said:
I will check the drafts, but i think he should be rated in the same league as Cruyff, Zidane etc, is he?
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Neither Zidane nor Platini should be rated in the same league as Cruyff, Cruyff is the one who's underrated here most of the time.
 
Even in general, Cruyff is a tier above. And if we include Cruyff's tactical influence on the game, then it's even more obvious.

I really love Platini, rate him higher than Zidane (in general, not in a worldcup draft). Maradona's rise pushed him in a bit in the shadow which hurt his standing in the game, so I agree that he's a bit underrated nowadays. It's even worse with Cruyff though, who's individual ability is often overshadowed by the tactics around him.
 
Balu said:
Even in general, Cruyff is a tier above. And if we include Cruyff's tactical influence on the game, then it's even more obvious.

I really love Platini, rate him higher than Zidane (in general, not in a worldcup draft). Maradona's rise pushed him in a bit in the shadow which hurt his standing in the game, so I agree that he's a bit underrated nowadays. It's even worse with Cruyff though, who's individual ability is often overshadowed by the tactics around him.
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I don't think he is a tier above, i rate Cruyff higher but i will rank them in the same tier. During the 80's Platini was arguably the best player in the world after Maradona, in fact there were times he was matching Maradonas output.
 
Balu said:
Even in general, Cruyff is a tier above. And if we include Cruyff's tactical influence on the game, then it's even more obvious.

I really love Platini, rate him higher than Zidane (in general, not in a worldcup draft). Maradona's rise pushed him in a bit in the shadow which hurt his standing in the game, so I agree that he's a bit underrated nowadays. It's even worse with Cruyff though, who's individual ability is often overshadowed by the tactics around him.
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Beckenbauer is likewise often underrated. I think people struggle to understand a defender can be that good at football.

Just an example, but I watched the '74 final the other day and there was a moment where the ball got fizzed out to Beckenbauer who was close to the left back position and he was immediately closed down by two Dutch players, but he just controlled it and flicked it past both of them before skipping away. It was brilliant and not something you imagine a defender doing.
 
Snipers Breath said:
I don't think he is a tier above, i rate Cruyff higher but i will rank them in the same tier. During the 80's Platini was arguably the best player in the world after Maradona, in fact there were times he was matching Maradonas output.
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I have Cruyff in a tier with Pele, Maradona, di Stefano and Beckenbauer, those 5 stand above everyone else until today, imo. Of course, it depends where you draw the line between the tiers, but for me Cruyff is top 5, Platini isn't.

I agree though, for the first half of the 80's Platini was the best player in the world. I don't think you can call Maradona the better player until everything changed in '86.

@Theon
I won't even start on Beckenbauer. He was the player with the best technique and vision in a worldcup winning team and in a club that won 3 consecutive European Cups. I get that someone who hasn't seen him play can't believe that to be true for a defender, but it really is.
 
Snipers Breath said:
I don't think he is a tier above, i rate Cruyff higher but i will rank them in the same tier. During the 80's Platini was arguably the best player in the world after Maradona, in fact there were times he was matching Maradonas output.
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From what I've seen of the pair of them I rate Platini marginally higher than Cruyff. Obviously though it's very difficult to make those cross-generational comparisons when I'm pretty sure nobody on the forum was watching them regularly in domestic football during their careers.
 
Annahnomoss said:
Just thought that Platini got a bit forgotten for his unique ability as an AM, I mean the only comparable passer in WC history in terms of just amount of passes/accuracy is Iniesta of '10 who had even more average passes and almost identical success-rate.

Apart from those, Zidane had a similar amount of passes but less success rate on opposition half and Pele had just a marginally worse success-rate but far fewer passes.
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Surely the fact that Iniesta is the only one on that level shows how relatively unimportant that statistic is? Iniesta in 2010 was not a world-beating performance. Platini having a better passing accuracy ratio than Cruyff tells you very little, surely, given the completely different style of play of the players and the teams they played in? Holland played risky football all the time. France were a lovely fluid side but they weren't a particularly risky side.
 
Brwned said:
Surely the fact that Iniesta is the only one on that level shows how relatively unimportant that statistic is? Iniesta in 2010 was not a world-beating performance. Platini having a better passing accuracy ratio than Cruyff tells you very little, surely, given the completely different style of play of the players and the teams they played in? Holland played risky football all the time. France were a lovely fluid side but they weren't a particularly risky side.
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I further explain in my next post as well that statistics don't paint a full picture by using Ballack as an example who has 10/10 statistics but not near such a performance overall.

However if you want someone to provide you with chances while still dominating the possession then Platini is an excellent choice. Is he going to be the best at creating chances? Far from it. Is he going to be the best at dominating possession? Well he is up there.

Considering he is a non-winner I can see him be a great fit for someone as a second round draft. If playing Platini means they can also play Beckenbauer in that midfield then maybe it will be worth it.
 
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