WC All Stars Chain Draft QF: idmanager vs PNut/prath

[idmanager]

Schweinsteiger (Driving force to get Germany to the win)

Germany didn't win the 2010 WC mate. You are playing the 2010 version. But sure, played well in that young impressive German team.

Vieira (Driving force to get France to the final, subbed due to injury in said final)

Sure, he had a good campaign.

Voronin (see clip below)

Don't need to. I already rate him well enough having watched in the past.

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As most have already said, you have a very nice midfield.

I have already posted why I don't think it fits the rest of the team. (Vieira and Bastian). Quoting again for you below.

4. I don't think 2002 Dinho and 2014 Messi could operate effectively together. Either one of them with 2 striker ahead of them makes much more sense IMO
4. Lets for a moment assume they can somehow work. In an already central attack, having 2 good B2B midfielders (Vieira, Schweinsteiger) significantly kills their attacking output. The 4 of them will constantly run into each other.
6. What the team required a feel is someone in the Xavi/Pirlo mould to play make from the deep. Heck, Didi would have been very good.

To emphasize a bit more, Bastian and Vieira had great tournaments because they were good bombing forward as well as helping out with their work rate.

Below is France 2006 and Germany 2010 formations. You see they have enough spaces to bomb forward without running into anyone. A classic Number 10, a B2B and a DM.

What you have here is an already loaded centre with Ronaldinho and Messi trying to share space. Try getting to push Vieira and Bastian as well forward and it ends a four way colliding cluster feck.

I am sure you'd like to look at it another way, but that is how I see it.

Its not surprising that both the formation below have wingers in them.

If you had one of Dinho/Messi with two strikers ahead, yes, it could have worked well in a nice diamond.

Coming to Voronin, he will try his best to nullify Cruyff and Sarosi with his other midfield partners but then Cruyff 1974 was not just another attacker. He was easily in the top most echelons of world cup football.
Similarly, Sarosi was as complete a footballer as they come.
Combined with Cruyff's movements and exchanges with Sarosi, Voronin will do well to produce a mistake less performance to contain that duo.
And with Cruyff when I say contain, I mean centrally. When he roams around, he will be a completely different animal altogether.

Not to forget the really underwhelming CB due he has behind him. Sure, if he had a a great well appreciated pair behind him, maybe it would have made his job a bit less difficult.
But that pair will only add to the burden on him to have a spotless perfect performance. That is too much dependence on him.

Great player nonetheless, you don't need to sell him to me at least.

 

[idmanager]

@idmanager see my last post for reasoning behind my message earlier, fine to disagree but that's the approach I'll be taking when voting.

Oh voting is always down to personal preferences mate. You don't need to justify that.

Some appreciate the nostalgia and exploring the unexplored, some don't like to indulge in the sea of uncertainty and vagueness.

To each his own

 

[idmanager]

but with Masopust in their whilst he was adept at it, you wouldn't claim it was one of his strongest assets

Masopust was pure B2B mate. He is underappreciated usually here but he was pretty good at both defending and attacking.

Sure his goal in the 1962 world cup final might be remembered more, but his work rate and ball retaining was top notch too.

Besides, I am not a fan of filling the team with 2 pivots just because you have two inside forwards. I am not playing ultra defensive here

It doesn't work that way. There is only one football ground to play on and unless there is a third dimension to the pitch, having 2 inside forwards doesn't warrant two absolute DM's.

And while we are on Masopust, I am not just big upping him because I have picked him in my team. Always rated him pretty highly as a B2B.
Below is my post from a thread on the caf around a discussion on the greatest B2B players of all time

I would gladly put Masopust ahead of most of the names mentioned here.

Sammer is one.name I didn't see in the discussion so far as well. Deserves to be there along with the Kaiser. In fact I would put him ahead of the Kaiser as a pure B2B. Kaiser would me more of a playmaker in my book and does lack in physical traits you would expect of a pure B2B.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/who-are-the-top-5-box-to-box-midfielders-of-all-time.436447/page-3

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

If Pnut had Beckenbauer I would have voted already. I feel lile Kaiser would have been perfect here to balance the defense. I dont like that CB pairing vs Cruyff

On idm side not sold on Sarosi at this stage either. Did he play CF role similar to false 9 in 1938?

 

[P-Nut]

Germany didn't win the 2010 WC mate. You are playing the 2010 version. But sure, played well in that young impressive German team.



Sure, he had a good campaign.



Don't need to. I already rate him well enough having watched in the past.

------------------

As most have already said, you have a very nice midfield.

I have already posted why I don't think it fits the rest of the team. (Vieira and Bastian). Quoting again for you below.



To emphasize a bit more, Bastian and Vieira had great tournaments because they were good bombing forward as well as helping out with their work rate.

Below is France 2006 and Germany 2010 formations. You see they have enough spaces to bomb forward without running into anyone. A classic Number 10, a B2B and a DM.

What you have here is an already loaded centre with Ronaldinho and Messi trying to share space. Try getting to push Vieira and Bastian as well forward and it ends a four way colliding cluster feck.

I am sure you'd like to look at it another way, but that is how I see it.

Its not surprising that both the formation below have wingers in them.

If you had one of Dinho/Messi with two strikers ahead, yes, it could have worked well in a nice diamond.

Coming to Voronin, he will try his best to nullify Cruyff and Sarosi with his other midfield partners but then Cruyff 1974 was not just another attacker. He was easily in the top most echelons of world cup football.
Similarly, Sarosi was as complete a footballer as they come.
Combined with Cruyff's movements and exchanges with Sarosi, Voronin will do well to produce a mistake less performance to contain that duo.
And with Cruyff when I say contain, I mean centrally. When he roams around, he will be a completely different animal altogether.

Not to forget the really underwhelming CB due he has behind him. Sure, if he had a a great well appreciated pair behind him, maybe it would have made his job a bit less difficult.
But that pair will only add to the burden on him to have a spotless perfect performance. That is too much dependence on him.

Great player nonetheless, you don't need to sell him to me at least.

As you yourself stated though football doesn't work like a chess board. Vieira and Schweinsteiger are smart enough to know when to push into the spaces left by a drifting 'Dinho or Messi. Against a midfield lacking in defensive strength that's dangerous.

You seem to be thinking that their will always be 4 players trying to attack the same space when in reality it just means there will always be an option there whilst the others drift to where space is appearing.

Anyways I'm about to board so I'll hopefully check up on this late tonight, when I'm home. Good luck @idmanager

 

[idmanager]

On idm side not sold on Sarosi at this stage either. Did he play CF role similar to false 9 in 1938?

Yes he did. The CF frequently drops deep with the inside forwards moving ahead in these formations back in the day.
The rest I guess, you could read from my earlier posts.

 

[idmanager]

As you yourself stated though football doesn't work like a chess board. Vieira and Schweinsteiger are smart enough to know when to push into the spaces left by a drifting 'Dinho or Messi. Against a midfield lacking in defensive strength that's dangerous.

You seem to be thinking that their will always be 4 players trying to attack the same space when in reality it just means there will always be an option there whilst the others drift to where space is appearing.

Anyways I'm about to board so I'll hopefully check up on this late tonight, when I'm home. Good luck @idmanager

No, they won't try to attack the same space. They just won't get enough opportunities. With a packed midfield, you'd hope your B2B midfielders get enough chances to bombard forward. Here I see them get very limited chances.

Have a safe trip mate.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Julio Cesar, Lucio and Aldair are seen as one of Brazil's best CBs. None of them are close to Bobby Moore (and I wouldn't trust neither of them with peak Cruyff)

Hmm, not sure about this. In older circles Domingos and Luís Pereira are seen as better than all three of those. (although World Cup wise Julio Cesar is probably the best IMO)

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Yes he did. The CF frequently drops deep with the inside forwards moving ahead in these formations back in the day.
The rest I guess, you could read from my earlier posts.

From what I read this would depend entirely on the specific team and players. Do you have a reference for Sarosi style of play in 38 in particular?

 

[idmanager]

I am really disappointed with the reception Sarosi is getting after scoring a goal in every game of the tournament, while playing here in a role surrounded by players well suited to his biggest strengths which I have tried to explain as much as I can based on what I have read.

Might as well have blocked the pre war world cups from the chain if the argument came down to not rating any player before 1950. Sigh.

 

[idmanager]

From what I read this would depend entirely on the specific team and players. Do you have a reference for Sarosi style of play in 38 in particular?

No mate, its almost impossible to find in depth tactical analysis of specific teams in particular games of back then.

Maybe one of the draft veterans might have some age old articles, but one has to depend on the general playing styles of these formations and players.

 

[Tuppet]

Yes he did. The CF frequently drops deep with the inside forwards moving ahead in these formations back in the day.
The rest I guess, you could read from my earlier posts.

Is that true ? I thought forward dropping back in midfield was the key innovation that Hungary did in 50s and made Magyars the greatest team of its time.

 

[idmanager]

Is that true ? I thought forward dropping back in midfield was the key innovation that Hungary did in 50s and made Magyars the greatest team of its time.

The 2nd great Margyars played with 2 strikers upfront for starters. And the likes of Puskas were more of our inverted forwards/second strikers of the current generation than the drop into the midfield kinds.

While Meazza is remembered more, Piola vs Sarosi was the name given to the WC final of 1938 based on what I read.
Piola again was great at both scoring and assisting while the inside forwards moved ahead (Both teams had same formations). Of course, his game was more about the physical part than finesse.

I read the Piola vs Sarosi part in an article in Hungarian (probably, since the author constantly referred to Hungary as 'We') language and the translation was loose, hence I didn't bookmark it to use here.
I will try to find it if possible.

Coming back to Sarosi, he has played as a ball playing CB (more like bring the ball out freely sweeper), played as a midfielder, played as a Supporting striker and as a striker throughout his career.
He had all the qualities to be a false 9.

 

[idmanager]

This is the article I was talking about.

http://www.tempofradi.hu/dr-sarosi-gyorgy-2

Its in Hungarian but it covers his career throughout the 30's.
Read the 1938 part for the Sarosi-Piola part of it.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I am really disappointed with the reception Sarosi is getting after scoring a goal in every game of the tournament, while playing here in a role surrounded by players well suited to his biggest strengths which I have tried to explain as much as I can based on what I have read.

Might as well have blocked the pre war world cups from the chain if the argument came down to not rating any player before 1950. Sigh.

Its definitely tricky. For instance Domingos Da Guia has the best reputation of any Brazilian CB and was the pioneer of the ball playing CB. Yet his draft reputation turned into a joke when Raees posted a single gif of a horror tackle from 1938 completely out of context.
I had Leonidas this draft who got ignored and I have seen Leonidas (the best player of that 1938 World Cup) in other drafts not really get much play. Of that entire era Josef Bican is probably one of the most forgotten players of the pre-war era. I had him in one draft and he barely got much credit outside a few people.

Its tricky because so much hyperbole was written by both Euro and SA journalists of that era. I think people tend to rate of few of their favorites and then ignore the rest. Meazza for instance, not just in draft, but among my real life friends is probably the most well known player of that era whereas I even had to remind my Italian friend of that Grande Torino side with Valentino Mazzola. Nasazzi and Andrade are respected because Antohan put in so much work and he also has access to older journalists info from Uruguay that is rare. But its tricky, in some latin american circles, Jose Sanfilippo is extremely well known and (in)famous. Respected player. But to Europeans he is virtually unknown.

Sometimes it just takes a lot of effort to bring out an unknown nostalgic player. I selected Kurt Hamrin in this draft, entirely on the research by Annahmoss in that 50s Swedish side that was remarkable yet forgotten in today's media. I *think* Tuppet might have picked Skoglund this draft based on the same great profiles Annah put in.

 

[Tuppet]

I *think* Tuppet might have picked Skoglund this draft based on the same great profiles Annah put in.

Yep.

 

[idmanager]

Its definitely tricky. For instance Domingos Da Guia has the best reputation of any Brazilian CB and was the pioneer of the ball playing CB. Yet his draft reputation turned into a joke when Raees posted a single gif of a horror tackle from 1938 completely out of context.
I had Leonidas this draft who got ignored and I have seen Leonidas (the best player of that 1938 World Cup) in other drafts not really get much play. Of that entire era Josef Bican is probably one of the most forgotten players of the pre-war era. I had him in one draft and he barely got much credit outside a few people.

Its tricky because so much hyperbole was written by both Euro and SA journalists of that era. I think people tend to rate of few of their favorites and then ignore the rest. Meazza for instance, not just in draft, but among my real life friends is probably the most well known player of that era whereas I even had to remind my Italian friend of that Grande Torino side with Valentino Mazzola. Nasazzi and Andrade are respected because Antohan put in so much work and he also has access to older journalists info from Uruguay that is rare. But its tricky, in some latin american circles, Jose Sanfilippo is extremely well known and (in)famous. Respected player. But to Europeans he is virtually unknown.

Sometimes it just takes a lot of effort to bring out an unknown nostalgic player. I selected Kurt Hamrin in this draft, entirely on the research by Annahmoss in that 50s Swedish side that was remarkable yet forgotten in today's media. I *think* Tuppet might have picked Skoglund this draft based on the same great profiles Annah put in.

Some of them are appreciated all around universally (not just journalists or others rating their favorites while ignoring the rest) and Sarosi definitely was on of them.
The universally appreciated ones (Valentino, Meazza, Sarosi, Pedernera, Sindelar, Nasazzi, Moreno, Monti and maybe a few more) you could count on your fingers from 1930 to 1950 as I earlier mentioned in one of the posts. And not appreciating even them disappoints me. Read the articles on Valentino Mazzola from plenty of sources, not just Italian. You will see how highly he is rated and compared with the likes of Maradona/Cruyff/Matthaus. Not every one of the pre war era is appreciated that much. That is one good way to sort out the best from the bunch although we could never really find answers with definitive proof.

I know I coming back to Sarosi all the time, but I am not ignoring the overall point in general.
Maybe I was very excited about the Sarosi and Cruyff combo and that has not fully met the reception I was expecting

 

[idmanager]

Anyways, time to sleep. I will try to post a bit more tomorrow if you folks are around @prath92 @P-Nut0712
Pretty good game and discussions so far. Cheers!

 

[Physiocrat]

Why not mate? Sure, we don't have enough footage, but there is ample literature around them and their playing styles and lots of stats available.

You do realize that less than a dozen players are actually remembered now a days from the two decades from 1930 to 1950?

That is an average of 1 player every 2 years on average. They ought to be a special group to be remembered over such a large span of time.

That is a very good point.

 

[Don Alfredo]

Good game in my opinion. Not such a goatfest like some other matches, but everyone is playing in a role which fits them.

I like Pnut's/Prath's midfield this time because it is needed to not let Cruyff drop in the hole and create havoc. Messi, Ronaldinho and Romario is a cohesive offense and reminds me of MSN in some kind.

I still think idmanager's attack trumps that of Pnut if you rate the players according to their world cups only. Messi and Ronaldinho were fine, but Jairzinho and Czibor especially destroyed literally every opponent along the way. Two of the best winger performances in a WC ever and really hard to overlook.

Cryuff-Sarosi seems like a good combo to me. I can only go by what is presented in this thread about Sarosi, but I think he is a very complimentary fit for Cruyff. He offers physicality and heading which Cruyff lacked, plus he plays on the same wavelength. He is also a creative hub up front in case of Cruyff wandering around again and popping up at LB to start some attack. That was one big weakness of Cruyff, he wanted to do all by himself sometimes. Got the ball at the back, dribbled around 8 players only to miss the finishing shot. I appreciate idmanager for putting in the effort to research and present Sarosi

You did write about your CB partnership being a sweeper/stopper combo. I assume Moore is the sweeper and Nasazzi the stopper? I always thought of them being both well rounded leaders at the back while not being the tallest. Why would you make such a clear distinction into sweeper/stopper? Or was Nasazzi the type of no-nonsense defender like a Vidic or a Pepe?

 

[idmanager]

I appreciate idmanager for putting in the effort to research and present Sarosi

Cheers mate.

You did write about your CB partnership being a sweeper/stopper combo. I assume Moore is the sweeper and Nasazzi the stopper? I always thought of them being both well rounded leaders at the back while not being the tallest. Why would you make such a clear distinction into sweeper/stopper? Or was Nasazzi the type of no-nonsense defender like a Vidic or a Pepe?

Well, Moore while being a great defender, was also clinical in starting moves from the back. He did assist two of the goals in the 1966 final.
Nasazzi on the other hand as you put it, was a no non sense defender. Very physical with excellent positional attributes.
Hence, the sweeper-stopper description. Both were well rounded of course, but Moore was better at the ball playing part of it.

While they were certainly not the tallest, they were not short either. Both were 6 feet tall (Moore slightly taller, nearing 6.1 feet)

 

[P-Nut]

Done a little bit of digging on Bellini as people seem to not be appreciating just how good he was.

"In a side containing the likes of the incomparable Pele, the gloriously unorthodox winger Garrincha and renowned defenders such as Djalma and Nilton Santos, the captain attracted relatively scant global attention, but in his homeland they appreciated his worth as immense."

"Having been converted from full-back to centre-half, he made his full international debut in a World Cup qualifier against Peru, a 1-1 draw in Lima in April 1957, then established a regular slot and, as a natural leader, rose quickly to become captain."

But while Pele was the one in the spotlight, Bellini took care of the daily, hourly work of
unifying the team. He cleaned up their mistakes on the field with his fearless defense, often
leaving the field bruised and bloodied. He calmly urged his team forward, expressing his
confidence in them when their confidence waned. Walker concludes, “The captains on my list
were rarely exceptional talents. …The leader’s job wasn’t to dazzle on the field but to labor in
the shadows of the stars, to carry water for the team, to lead from the back.”

He was a massive massive influence on that 58 side and regarded as an absolute great of the game in South America.

Obviously being the first televised world cup the flamboyant players would always receive the biggest following and tributes, but we have a player who was made captain 1 year after his debut and oversaw Brazil's first world cup win after crumbling in the final 4 years earlier. How he can be called a liability based solely on that tournament is really rather strange.

 

[idmanager]

There is a reason why Bellini is not even remembered when considering the top 5 Brazilian CB's of all time despite being the captain of the first WC Brazil won.
Its simply because that 1958 WC victory was won due to Brazil's immense attacking talent. The defense was a liability.

Below are a few anecdotes from that WC of Bellini.

Game summary vs England: (Result 0-0)

England aware of the technical superiority of Brazil, designed a defensive tactic aiming at neutralizing the Brazilian attackers, especially Didi. Although they managed to do so, Brazil still hit the post twice with Mazola and Vava.
On the English sidde, Kevan should have had a penalty when he went down on a challenge from Bellini. In the end, it was the first goal less draw in the history of the World Cup.

Vs France: (Result 5-2) (Semi Final)

France was able to draw one back thanks to the solo efforts of Roger Piantoni, who made a mazy run from the halfway line all the way to the edge of the box, keeping Bellini and Orlando off balance before slicing a left-footed shot into the bottom right corner.

Fontaine made an off-the-ball run into the box, with center-backs Bellini and Orlando both slow to react. Di Sordi was nowhere to be seen, and it was an easy thing for Fontaine to round the diving keeper Gilmar and blast into the open net.

vs Sweden : Final (Result 5-2)

Sweden was excited to be playing the entertaining and popular Brazilians in the final!

It was the first World Cup final to be transmitted live on television, so millions were watching the match which started on a pitch that was wet from an entire day of rain, something that seemed to favour the home team. And when Nils Liedholm passsed through two weak Brazilian defenders (Orlando and Bellini) after only four minutes, he seemed to confirm this as he brought Sweden ahead 1-0.

Simonsson was unmarked on the right and his square pass reached Liedholm just outside the penalty area.
The Swedish captain turned past Orlando and Bellini before hitting a ground shot which went in past Gilmar

 

[idmanager]

When compared with Silver Ball winner Bobby Moore and Golden Ball winner Jose Nasazzi, Bellini and Butcher are way too many leagues down in both stature and world cup performances.

Its impossible for the duo to get the better of Cruyff and Sarosi. Not by any stretch of imagination.

 

[P-Nut]

There is a reason why Bellini is not even remembered when considering the top 5 Brazilian CB's of all time despite being the captain of the first WC Brazil won.
Its simply because that 1958 WC victory was won due to Brazil's immense attacking talent. The defense was a liability.

Below are a few anecdotes from that WC of Bellini.

Game summary vs England: (Result 0-0)

England aware of the technical superiority of Brazil, designed a defensive tactic aiming at neutralizing the Brazilian attackers, especially Didi. Although they managed to do so, Brazil still hit the post twice with Mazola and Vava.
On the English sidde, Kevan should have had a penalty when he went down on a challenge from Bellini. In the end, it was the first goal less draw in the history of the World Cup.

Vs France: (Result 5-2) (Semi Final)

France was able to draw one back thanks to the solo efforts of Roger Piantoni, who made a mazy run from the halfway line all the way to the edge of the box, keeping Bellini and Orlando off balance before slicing a left-footed shot into the bottom right corner.

Fontaine made an off-the-ball run into the box, with center-backs Bellini and Orlando both slow to react. Di Sordi was nowhere to be seen, and it was an easy thing for Fontaine to round the diving keeper Gilmar and blast into the open net.

vs Sweden : Final (Result 5-2)

Sweden was excited to be playing the entertaining and popular Brazilians in the final!

It was the first World Cup final to be transmitted live on television, so millions were watching the match which started on a pitch that was wet from an entire day of rain, something that seemed to favour the home team. And when Nils Liedholm passsed through two weak Brazilian defenders (Orlando and Bellini) after only four minutes, he seemed to confirm this as he brought Sweden ahead 1-0.

Simonsson was unmarked on the right and his square pass reached Liedholm just outside the penalty area.
The Swedish captain turned past Orlando and Bellini before hitting a ground shot which went in past Gilmar

Wait so you mean strikers managed to beat the defenders every now and then. Come on man, obviously there is going to be times when they get beat, no defender is perfect. But the fact he is heralded as such a great leader, was in the team of the tournament means he's not exactly a liability like you're trying to make out here.

 

[idmanager]

Wait so you mean strikers managed to beat the defenders every now and then. Come on man, obviously there is going to be times when they get beat, no defender is perfect. But the fact he is heralded as such a great leader, was in the team of the tournament means he's not exactly a liability like you're trying to make out here.

To be honest, they sound more like mistakes mate.

For me, he was lucky to be in a great team in 1958 which would have won the WC even without him. Same probably goes for Tarantini in 1978.

I am sure you can't find many lists or sources that would rate him ahead of some of the other (underwhelming) Brazilian CB's in general historically.

And of course, I would fail to find lists that would rate Tarantini as the South American Maldini although he is ranked well among South American/Argentine LB's (owning to the short list I would admit)

For me it comes down to who they are facing. I have made my points as to why Tarantini works against Messi style wise.

Bellini-Butcher for me doesn't work against a GOAT pair Cruyff-Sarosi. For me, it needed at least 1 defender of Beckenbauer mould and stature if not two to even imagine this to be a contest in that area of the field.

I am sure you think other wise which is alright.

I will stop blowing the weak CB's trumpet now though as everything that had to be said from me and that had to be reverted from your end has been done.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

there is footage of those games so its very easy for both sides to prove their points.

 

[idmanager]

there is footage of those games so its very easy for both sides to prove their points.

That is true.

Below video for example has both the French goals from the 1958 semi final.

In both the French goals, the slow defense is torn apart by either a single pass or a single dribble centrally.

Bellini is #2 and clearly beaten by pace in the first goal and by trickery in the second goal

 

[harms]

@P-Nut0712 @prath92 by the way, why did you chose the 1982 version of Schumacher, when he was better in 1986 (and even won the Silver Ball)?

 

[P-Nut]

there is footage of those games so its very easy for both sides to prove their points.

The problem with trying to highlight defenders worth from back then is unless the full match is available and you can sit and pick out all the individual tackles and positioning etc then you usually just get the goals scored which aren't exactly going to cover defenders in glory

 

[idmanager]

Cheers @P-Nut0712 @prath92 . Was a good game right till the end.

 

[P-Nut]

Cheers @P-Nut0712 @prath92 . Was a good game right till the end.

Yeah cheers mate was a good close game. Enjoyed the back and forth discussion as well.

 

[prath92]

Good game mate @idmanager . That’s a very good team you have