WC All Stars Chain Draft QF: idmanager vs PNut/prath

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

VS

...................................... TEAM IDMANAGER ......................................................................... TEAM PNUT/PRATH ..........................................


TEAM IDMANAGER

Tactics:

Building an attack around two of the greatest all round attackers of all time : Gyorgy Sarosi and Johan Cruyff

Sarosi and Cruyff both had a couple of things in common. Both were great at creating chances at will for their teammates and both were prolific scorers as well.

Its one thing to have the ability to play well as a dedicated striker and a dedicated play maker or second striker in different games, but what made these two special was that they could play both the roles at will in the same game and switch as they desired.

They could drop deep to pick up the ball, dribble past opponents at speed, create chances from any where, as they wished to and as they found spaces and weakness in the opposition.

On the flip side, they were both good at finishing the chances created by their team mates as well.

They will both constantly switch roles confusing both the opposition centre backs and DMs. Man marking such a pair is almost impossible and bound to spoil the shape of the opposition to no ends.

Cruyff of course, was the better playmaker of the two and Sarosi, the more prolific goal scorer.
Hence, Sarosi will more often be the most forward player leading the attack.

Sarosi of course, was also one of the greatest headers of all time who reveled from service from the wings. Here he has Jairzinho and Czibor to create chance after chance for him.

Jairzinho and Czibor were great goal scorers themselves (including in their WC editions mentioned here).

They will constantly try to get at the end of chances in the box created from their opposite wings or when both Cruyff and Sarosi try to drop deep to create chances.

The front 4 is very dynamic with lots of flexibility and versatility, and most importantly, great world cup CV's.

The midfield has the classic combination of a DM/destroyer alongside a B2B midfielder, behind the great maestro Cruyff.

In the midfield we have Luis Monti to play the role of the destroyer/DM to cut any opposition attacks through the centre. Alongside him would be the box to box engine of Masopust who again was one of the few ones in history who was brilliant with and without the ball.

The defense is marshalled by probably the best CB partnership of the draft in the WC context. Two captains who lead from the front in winning it for their countries. Moore-Nasazzi form the classic sweeper-stopper partnership blocking everything in the way. Moore was brilliant at starting attacks from the back and he would be playing that role here as well.

Alongside Moore on the left is Tarantini, who is well verse with playing such a role with Passarella. Tarantini will be playing the role of a defensive left back.

And at right back is one of the most balanced full backs of all time in Philip Lahm, who was equally good at attacking and defending. He would be the more ambitious of the full backs supporting Jairzinho in the attacks from the right side..

The defense doesn't have any easy routes to goals with all 4 defenders and the defensive shields from the MF having great tournament in the same roles.

The team would look to transition quickly from defense to attack and try to get the ball quickly to the wingers/play makers.

With so many great passers in the team in the form of Moore/Monti/Masopust/Lahm/Cruyff, the transition should be seamless and then there is enough fire power to kill the opposition upfront.

TEAM PNUT/PRATH


Write up

Harald Schumacher (1982) - A finalist of the 1982 World Cup, he was a top goalkeeper
Hilderaldo Bellini (1958) - A World Cup winner with Brazil, he is one of Brazil’s best central defenders.
Terry Butcher (1990) - One of England’s defensive stars from the 1990 World Cup. He was solid and one of the main reasons for England’s run to the Semi Finals
Carlos Alberto (1970) - One of the best Right backs especially in th World Cup context playing a crucial role in helping Brazil to win the World Cup
Roberto Carlos (1998) - A key player in Brazil’s 1998 final run. He was part of the All star team for the cup. A monster attacking and very competent defensively
Valery Voronin (1966) - A top class defensive midfielder who was key in Soviet Union’s progress to the World Cup semis in 1966.
Patrick Vieira (2006) - One of the best B2B of the late 90s and early 2000s. A key part of the French final run in 2006. He was part of the World Cup Team of the tournament.
Bastian Schweinsteiger (2010) - Another world class midfielder, the German central midfielder was instrumental to the German successful semi final run in 2010
Ronaldinho (2002) - Known as the magician he was an integral part of the 2002 World Cup win.
Romario (1994) - One of the most prolific strikers of his era, he was top scorer and the best player during the 1994 World Cup when his team won the World Cup.
Lionel Messi (2014) - One of the best players in the 2014 edition (winner of golden ball). He is exceptional in creation and finishing chances

Tactics

Defence

2 solid CBs marshalling the defence in Bellini and Butcher. Carlos Alberto and Roberto Carlos the full backs. Carlos Alberto is adept at both attack and defence and can very well take care of his defensive duties with aplomb. Roberto Carlos may be known as an attacking fullback, which he admittedly is, but he is not incompetent defensively especially with the support he has from midfield. Valery Voronin in the DM role to anchor the midfield with both schweinsteiger and Vieira well pitching in on the defensive sides.

Midfield

A very robust midfield but creative at the same time. Voronin will anchor the midfield by sitting in front of the defence. Vieira and schweinsteiger play B2B midfielders. They are hard to be dominated. With them being quality in both offensive and defensive roles, there are no issues of lacking creativity or of lacking tenacity in this midfield

Attack

Romario to play as the striker with ronaldinho and Messi in free roles behind him. Messi to roam the right side channels and Ronaldinho to take care of the left side thereby creating width on either side for the two Carlos’s to overlap. Bastian Schweinsteiger and Patrick Vieira are very good in the offensive part of the game as well so they will contribute to attack with their late runs into the box and helping the other forwards in any way.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@idmanager @P-Nut0712 @prath92 all the best!


TEAM IDMANAGER PLAYER PROFILES

Spoiler: Player Profiles

Player profiles:

Thomas N'Kono (1982) : Arguably the greatest goalkeeper Africa ever produced. African soccer had its first real break-through on the world stage in 1982. Cameroon held Peru, eventual winners Italy and semifinalists Poland to draws in the first round group. They only let in one goal, a lucky header by Italian forward Graziani, but it was enough to send them home because Italy had 2-2 in goals compared to Cameroon's 1-1. Thomas N'Kono was the main reason to their impressive defensive record. He showed goalkeeping at its finest and was nominated as one of the best goalkeepers in the tournament.

Alberto Tarantini (1978) : Part of the world cup winning Argentine team of 1978 and selected in the all stars team of the tournament. Played the role of a defensive LB alongside Passarella to great effect often covering for the CB.

Bobby Moore (1966) : World Cup winning captain of England in 1966 and one of the greatest defenders of all time. Had an immense tournament and was the best defender in it, along with assiting 2 goals in the final. Part of the all stars team of the tournament

Jose Nasazzi (1930) : World Cup winning captain of Uruguay in 1930 and one of the greatest defenders of all time. Selected as the best player of 1930 World cup and in the all stars team of the tournament.

Philip Lahm (2010): World cup winning captain in 2014 but had a great 2010 tournament as well.Lost to Spain in the semis but had a superb world cup, getting selected in the all stars team of the tournament at the end.

Luis Monti (1934) : Consecutive world winner in 1930 and 1934 and selected in the team of the tournament in both editions, albeit from different countries. Considered one of the greatest DMs of all time.

Josef Masopust (1962) : Greatest Czech footballer of all time. Captained the Czechoslovakia team in 1962 and lead them to the final losing only to Brazil, while still scoring a goal in the final. Had a spectacular world cup and won the Ballon Dor in 1962 for his WC performances. Was selected in the team of the tournament as well.

Johan Cruyff (1974) : Easily among the top 3 greatest WC performances of all time. Won the Player of the Tournament deservingly.

Zoltan Czibor (1954) : Part of the much loved Mighty Magyars who reach the WC final in 1954. Czibor had a great tournament from the left wing and was named in the team of the tournament, while scoring 3 goals, including one in the final while assisting plenty more for Puskas and Kocsis.

Jairzinho (1970) : The World Cup Hurricane won the 1970 WC scoring in all games along the way in one of the greatest teams of all time. He is one of the only 3 players in history to score in all games of a WC. Selected in the team of the tournament.

Gyorgy Sarosi (1938) : One of the greatest forwards of all time. A complete footballer. Had a brilliant 1938 WC only to lose the final to Italy while still scoring in the final. Like Jairzinho, he scored in all games of the 1938 WC as well and was selected in the team of the tournament.

 

[harms]

I like the look of idmanager's side, even though the lack of actual knowledge of Sarosi's game makes it harder to envision his attacking unit. On paper he and Cruyff should do fantastic as both are among the most complete footballers in history.

P-Nut's center backs look a bit light, especially in comparison with Moore - Nasazzi pairing on the other side. But then again, Schumacher is a significant upgrade on N'Kono and he can kick the shit out of Sarosi/Cruyff without any repercussions

 

[idmanager]

But then again, Schumacher is a significant upgrade on N'Kono

Cameroon in 1982 faced Peru, Poland (finished 3rd in the tournament) and Italy (Won the WC).
Cameroon conceded 1 goal in all those 3 games combined. N'Kono was the main reason to their impressive defensive record.

Germany/Schumacher, a much better team faced Algeria, Chile and Austria (a much more easier group) in the group stages and maintained a clean sheet in only 1 of those 3 games.

Calling Schumacher a significant upgrade on N'kono is not right in the draft's WC context.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

P-Nut's center backs look a bit light, especially in comparison with Moore - Nasazzi pairing on the other side

Yeah. Second this.

Messi vs Tarantini or Jairzinho vs Carlos should settle this. Width from Carlos looks to be crucial as they lack natural wide player up ahead and with Jairzinho lurking there, seem to be a mismatch.

Leaning towards idmanager for now.

 

[idmanager]

Good luck @prath92 @P-Nut0712

I will post my initial thoughts in a while.

 

[prath92]

I like the look of idmanager's side, even though the lack of actual knowledge of Sarosi's game makes it harder to envision his attacking unit. On paper he and Cruyff should do fantastic as both are among the most complete footballers in history.

P-Nut's center backs look a bit light, especially in comparison with Moore - Nasazzi pairing on the other side. But then again, Schumacher is a significant upgrade on N'Kono and he can kick the shit out of Sarosi/Cruyff without any repercussions

Hilderaldo is seen as one of Brazil’s best CBs. He was key in them winning a tournament. And Butcher is someone who will get stuck in more often than not. I don’t see how they won’t do the job.

 

[idmanager]

Messi vs Tarantini

Tarantini in 1978 tucked in quite often when Passarella attacked and had a very good tournament defensively and was selected in the team of the tournament.
A tucked in defensively sound LB would be ideal to deal with Messi IMO.

In fact, he often played CB in his career as well, so should be at home trying to nullify Messi.

 

[harms]

Cameroon in 1982 faced Peru, Poland (finished 3rd in the tournament) and Italy (Won the WC).
Cameroon conceded 1 goal in all those 3 games combined. N'Kono was the main reason to their impressive defensive record.

Germany/Schumacher, a much better team faced Algeria, Chile and Austria (a much more easier group) in the group stages and maintained a clean sheet in only 1 of those 3 games.

Calling Schumacher a significant upgrade on N'kono is not right in the draft's WC context.

Just noticed that Schumacher is not from 1986 but from 1982. Which I can't really explain considering that P/P don't anyone from that tournament

 

[prath92]

Yeah. Second this.

Messi vs Tarantini or Jairzinho vs Carlos should settle this. Width from Carlos looks to be crucial as they lack natural wide player up ahead and with Jairzinho lurking there, seem to be a mismatch.

Leaning towards idmanager for now.

Ronaldinho can offer width due to his role. Or even bastian when in attack (he had pace in 2010). Also it won’t be Carlos vs jairzinho. He has support from midfield all of whom are extremely competent in defending. That’s even if you consider Carlos is someone who can’t defend. Which isn’t really true

 

[harms]

Hilderaldo is seen as one of Brazil’s best CBs. He was key in them winning a tournament. And Butcher is someone who will get stuck in more often than not. I don’t see how they won’t do the job.

Julio Cesar, Lucio and Aldair are seen as one of Brazil's best CBs. None of them are close to Bobby Moore (and I wouldn't trust neither of them with peak Cruyff)

 

[Šjor Bepo]

also leaning towards idmanager but feck me if i understand the signing of Czibor, such a strange fit for Cruyff

 

[idmanager]

Anyways, below are my initial thoughts on the game:

1. Jairzinho + Lahm vs Carlos will be a fun ride for my team. Not only will it be a great attacking outlet, it will significantly reduce Carlos' attacking output which is crucial for a formation like this.
2. Ronaldinho was not the flying left forward he went on to become at Barcelona in the 2002 WC. He had a great outing but that was more from the central zone creating chances for Rivaldo and Ronaldo.
3. Messi again was not his young self from the right flank in 2014. He played in similar roles to Ronaldinho's 2002 role, albeit slightly from right.
4. I don't think 2002 Dinho and 2014 Messi could operate effectively together. Either one of them with 2 striker ahead of them makes much more sense IMO
4. Lets for a moment assume they can somehow work. In an already central attack, having 2 good B2B midfielders (Veiera, Schweinsteiger) significantly kills their attacking output. The 4 of them will constantly run into each other.
6. What the team required a feel is someone in the Xavi/Pirlo mould to play make from the deep. Heck, Didi would have been very good.
7. Coming to the defense, Nasazzi was the golden ball winner in 1930 and Moore the silver ball winner in 1966. Butcher+Bellini is miles below that. How often do you see them picked in all time drafts. Even in WC contexts, they didn't have any where near the sort of tournaments Moore and Nasazzi had.

 

[idmanager]

also leaning towards idmanager but feck me if i understand the signing of Czibor, such a strange fit for Cruyff

You see, the attack is two pronged with Sarosi and Cruyff. Sarosi was one of the greatest headers of ball and scored plenty from crosses from the wings from what I have read. Wingers were a great source of his goals.
In fact, the below image showing his height would tell you all that is needed to know. (Meazza on left, Sarosi on right)

This is sort of a Hungarian recreation of Czibor+Kocsis

Czibor was a prolific goal scorer as well and not just a touchline hugger. Scored in the 1954 semis and finals as well. He will enjoy moving around scoring areas when Cruyff drifts wide.
As I mentioned in the OP, its a very dynamic and flexible front 4 with lots of versatility and players moving around. Jairzinho for example, also was not a touchline hugger. The opposition would do well to figure out where who would end during different moves.

Lads, Please do read the OP (the front 4 part), in case you haven't as I spent a short but decent while writing it rather than the usual scribbling. Criticism is welcome

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

That’s even if you consider Carlos is someone who can’t defend. Which isn’t really true

Nah, Carlos defensive weakness tends to get overrated in these drafts. he's capable in back 4. But then I do rate WC Jairzinho higher. It's not on individual, but more on Carlos ability to provide width consistently in this matchup, that I'm not sure of. A bit too much is expected of him imo.

 

[idmanager]

Dr. György Sarosi was one of the world’s greatest footballers between the two World Wars. During his career, he scored 393 goals for Hungary and his club Ferencvaros in 444 games over a period spanning 18 years (1930 to 1948). Of the great generation of Hungarians that came before the Magic Magyars of the 1950s, Sarosi led his teammates to the 1938 World Cup final in which his team lost to the defending champions Italy despite him scoring a goal. Possessing a superb technique and supreme football intelligence, Sarosi was a sophisticated person on and off the pitch, equally adept at playing center forward and at dropping back creating opportunities for his teammates as inside right or inside left and since he was also very strong in the air, Sarosi was known be a very good center half as well.

Sarosi played his first game for Hungary on May 21 1931 in Belgrade vs Yugoslavia, which the Magyars lost 2-3. His last game he played in November 1943 against Sweden (2-7 defeat).

His personal highlight while playing for Hungary came on 19 September 1937, when he scored seven goals against Frantisek Planicka in Hungary’s 8-3 victory over World Cup runners-up Czechoslovakia. Sarosi played his first World Cup in 1934 but missed the first game vs. Egypt. In the second round against the strong Austrians Sarosi could not prevent a 1-2 defeat, scoring Hungary’s only goal. Things went better for the Magyars four years later in the 1938 World Cup, in the first round they crushed the Dutch East Indies 6-0 (two goals by Sarosi), then eliminated the Swiss by winning 2-1 (Sarosi scoring once). In the semi final, the Swedes were annihilated in a 5-1 rout (one goal by Sarosi) but in the final, they met an Italy side that proved too strong for them that day, but again Sarosi scored a goal in the 2-4 defeat, having thus managed to score in every World Cup game he played in (6 goals in 5 games).

 

[idmanager]

Nah, Carlos defensive weakness tends to get overrated in these drafts. he's capable in back 4. But then I do rate WC Jairzinho higher. It's not on individual, but more on Carlos ability to provide width consistently in this matchup, that I'm not sure of. A bit too much is expected of him imo.

I think Lahm alongside Jairzinho makes him a way bigger mismatch than a 1 on 1 vs a winger.
You'd ideally want a hard working winger along side him if he is 2 vs 1 against quality.

 

[prath92]

Ronaldinho played that World Cup in a free role. I don’t think it’s particulary different to the role that he is being asked to play here. He won’t be a genuine wide man but can drift to the right. ronaldinho dribbled for fun back then too. His role here is similar. There is no problem with Messi’s role. Messi is someone who will roam around the attacking third creating chances and also getting at the end of chances created by others.

As for Carlos, 1v1 with jairzinho maybe tough. But he won’t be. He has midfielders who work extremely hard to support him. Schweinsteiger was an extremely vital cog to Germany’s solidity and prowess in 2010. Hard to see how he won’t make a mark here. These players make a quick transition quite easy.

 

[idmanager]

As for Carlos, 1v1 with jairzinho maybe tough. But he won’t be. He has midfielders who work extremely hard to support him. Schweinsteiger was an extremely vital cog to Germany’s solidity and prowess in 2010. Hard to see how he won’t make a mark here. These players make a quick transition quite easy.

Sure, he might have midfielders supporting him when defending mate (which leaves holes in the middle to be exploited by Cruyff/Masopust), but what remains a question is whether he can attack and provide the width the formation needs here.
Him bombing forward like his usual self would be suicidal against that right flank, with or without the support from MF.

 

[idmanager]

Ronaldinho played that World Cup in a free role. I don’t think it’s particulary different to the role that he is being asked to play here. He won’t be a genuine wide man but can drift to the right. ronaldinho dribbled for fun back then too. His role here is similar. There is no problem with Messi’s role. Messi is someone who will roam around the attacking third creating chances and also getting at the end of chances created by others.

Just so that we are on the same page, where do you think Ronadinho or Messi's best attacks came from in 2002 and 2014 mate?
If you don't think centrally, then surely we are on different pages.

Sure both can drift out wide at times to start attacks and try to cut in, but if you want them to have the respective WC peak of their capable effectiveness, it has through be through the centre where I feel they are bound to run into each other.

 

[idmanager]

More on a young Sarosi from one of his coaches

“He was only a boy, but on the pitch it seemed like he was the man playing against kids in the park,” said Zoltan Blum, who coached Sarosi .
“It was just so easy to him. He was big, really strong, quick, never lost a header. He was impossible to bully. Moreover, he played with such confidence – even at a small age he played with the confidence of a captain."

 

[2mufc0]

Everything thing looks ace for P-Nut and Prath until you get to those CB's

 

[2mufc0]

Dr. György Sarosi was one of the world’s greatest footballers between the two World Wars. During his career, he scored 393 goals for Hungary and his club Ferencvaros in 444 games over a period spanning 18 years (1930 to 1948). Of the great generation of Hungarians that came before the Magic Magyars of the 1950s, Sarosi led his teammates to the 1938 World Cup final in which his team lost to the defending champions Italy despite him scoring a goal. Possessing a superb technique and supreme football intelligence, Sarosi was a sophisticated person on and off the pitch, equally adept at playing center forward and at dropping back creating opportunities for his teammates as inside right or inside left and since he was also very strong in the air, Sarosi was known be a very good center half as well.

Sarosi played his first game for Hungary on May 21 1931 in Belgrade vs Yugoslavia, which the Magyars lost 2-3. His last game he played in November 1943 against Sweden (2-7 defeat).

His personal highlight while playing for Hungary came on 19 September 1937, when he scored seven goals against Frantisek Planicka in Hungary’s 8-3 victory over World Cup runners-up Czechoslovakia. Sarosi played his first World Cup in 1934 but missed the first game vs. Egypt. In the second round against the strong Austrians Sarosi could not prevent a 1-2 defeat, scoring Hungary’s only goal. Things went better for the Magyars four years later in the 1938 World Cup, in the first round they crushed the Dutch East Indies 6-0 (two goals by Sarosi), then eliminated the Swiss by winning 2-1 (Sarosi scoring once). In the semi final, the Swedes were annihilated in a 5-1 rout (one goal by Sarosi) but in the final, they met an Italy side that proved too strong for them that day, but again Sarosi scored a goal in the 2-4 defeat, having thus managed to score in every World Cup game he played in (6 goals in 5 games).

Sounds great but imo guys like this shouldn't be around for later rounds, it's impossible to rate them fully without any footage.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Sounds great but imo guys like this shouldn't be around for later rounds, it's impossible to rate them fully without any footage.

id ban all pre-footage players in every draft but while that isnt the case you cant really dismiss them because there is no footage and you pretty much have to trust what you read about them so in theory i dont see why they wouldnt participate in the finals and not only in later rounds.

 

[prath92]

Just so that we are on the same page, where do you think Ronadinho or Messi's best attacks came from in 2002 and 2014 mate?
If you don't think centrally, then surely we are on different pages.

Sure both can drift out wide at times to start attacks and try to cut in, but if you want them to have the respective WC peak of their capable effectiveness, it has through be through the centre where I feel they are bound to run into each other.

Not true at all. Both of them operated in the centre as well but they were quite often in the flanks isolating the full backs. His natural tendency was quite often to go wide and isolate the full backs or draw the CBs wide.





It was similar for ronaldinho. They played central but back then there were definitely inclination to go wide to isolate defenders to get past them 1v1. Here their role is to drift to the opposite flanks but the role would mean they could find themselves on the opposite flanks as well.

It’s similar to how ronaldinho and Rivaldo never overlapped even though both were essentially attacking midfielders.

 

[prath92]

Bellini was key in Brazil’s win in 1958. And terry butcher was also exceptional in 1990. While they may not be best in an all time sense, in terms of World Cup, they are excellent defenders and fit for the job here.

 

[Gio]

Ronaldinho played that World Cup in a free role. I don’t think it’s particulary different to the role that he is being asked to play here. He won’t be a genuine wide man but can drift to the right. ronaldinho dribbled for fun back then too. His role here is similar. There is no problem with Messi’s role. Messi is someone who will roam around the attacking third creating chances and also getting at the end of chances created by others.

Yeah the attack looks good to me. Not as good as it looks on paper, because only Romario can truly claim to have delivered a major tournament befitting his class, but role-wise everybody fits.

You're right on Ronaldinho. He did tend to play to the right of Rivaldo but they inter-changed a fair bit and were fluid in their support to Ronaldo.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I don't see any overlaps in Messi and Ronaldinho. They have ample room to make plays without running into each other. Also love the super solid midfield of prath. But that defence is an eyesore, esp the CBs. Competant in their own way, but lacking in class compared to attackers in this match.

 

[idmanager]

Sounds great but imo guys like this shouldn't be around for later rounds, it's impossible to rate them fully without any footage.

Why not mate? Sure, we don't have enough footage, but there is ample literature around them and their playing styles and lots of stats available.

You do realize that less than a dozen players are actually remembered now a days from the two decades from 1930 to 1950?

That is an average of 1 player every 2 years on average. They ought to be a special group to be remembered over such a large span of time.

Besides, aren't you a little bored of the same old Stoichkov ahead of Maradona, Ronaldo ahead of Cruyff, Kocsis ahead of Pele every draft by the time we reach the semis or finals?

I for one really liked that you stuck by Faas Wilkes till the semifinals of the auction draft recently even though there was hardly any footage on him as well. I had hardly known anything about him prior to that game and can remember a fair bit now thanks to the ton of write up you had on him besides him just being Cruyff's idol. (Might I light heartedly say, its a bit of hypocrism on your end )

I am sure @Šjor Bepo wouldn't call his win over you his fondest, but I am glad with the outing and discussion Meazza got. Was a fun thread.

And lets not forget this is a WC draft and he scored in every fecking game of the tournament? How many players have done that over history? Its a great feat which should be cherished.

I dunno how far I will go in the tournament and if I do, who will be available in reinforcements, but Sarosi will be in the lineup till my last game.

 

[P-Nut]

Tarantini in 1978 tucked in quite often when Passarella attacked and had a very good tournament defensively and was selected in the team of the tournament.
A tucked in defensively sound LB would be ideal to deal with Messi IMO.

In fact, he often played CB in his career as well, so should be at home trying to nullify Messi.

I think Lahm alongside Jairzinho makes him a way bigger mismatch than a 1 on 1 vs a winger.
You'd ideally want a hard working winger along side him if he is 2 vs 1 against quality.

Sure, he might have midfielders supporting him when defending mate (which leaves holes in the middle to be exploited by Cruyff/Masopust), but what remains a question is whether he can attack and provide the width the formation needs here.
Him bombing forward like his usual self would be suicidal against that right flank, with or without the support from MF.

Hope you don't mind me chiming in whilst I've got chance @idmanager (understand it's usually 1 manager at a time, but I won't be around most of the day)

As much as Lahm and Jairzinho is favourable to your side, the same can be said of the opposite flank.

You claim Tarantini will tuck in to deal with Messi who will roam the attacking areas. That's fine, but who then deals with Carlos Alberto? He's one of Brazil's greatest ever attacking full backs and with your left back tucked in and Czibor not offering much defensively hasn't he got free reign to massively punish you here?

 

[idmanager]

Not true at all. Both of them operated in the centre as well but they were quite often in the flanks isolating the full backs. His natural tendency was quite often to go wide and isolate the full backs or draw the CBs wide.





It was similar for ronaldinho. They played central but back then there were definitely inclination to go wide to isolate defenders to get past them 1v1. Here their role is to drift to the opposite flanks but the role would mean they could find themselves on the opposite flanks as well.

It’s similar to how ronaldinho and Rivaldo never overlapped even though both were essentially attacking midfielders.

Rivaldo for one played more as a forward than a AM mate from what I remember in that WC mate.
Sure, its not like he never helped from the midfield and they did rotate a lot, but it wasn't the major chunk of role.

As I said, they can perform and drift out wide as well. It would be foolish and stupid of me to say they can't, but I don't think it would be the most effective setup for all of them to be at their WC peaks.

I am sure, we won't agree on this even by tomorrow, but I'll just wrap this by saying if Dinho and Messi constantly drift wide, I would be glad as the opposing manager keeping their WC's in mind.

And I am sure a few will agree with you (like a couple already have), and a few might agree with me. But I guess, we are both entitled to put our perspectives in there. Cheers

 

[idmanager]

Hope you don't mind me chiming in whilst I've got chance @idmanager (understand it's usually 1 manager at a time, but I won't be around most of the day)

Not at all mate. More the merrier
Glad you get to chime in even after the adjusted date.

As much as Lahm and Jairzinho is favourable to your side, the same can be said of the opposite flank.

You claim Tarantini will tuck in to deal with Messi who will roam the attacking areas. That's fine, but who then deals with Carlos Alberto? He's one of Brazil's greatest ever attacking full backs and with your left back tucked in and Czibor not offering much defensively hasn't he got free reign to massively punish you here?

Come on mate, he is not going to tuck in always. Otherwise, I would have depicted the formation that way.
Based on the situation, he would tuck in if requited and keep a check on Carlos Alberto when he pushes up.

Its the general behavior with full backs tending to tuck in from time to time with narrow attacks without a proper winger.
While Tarantini did the same with Pasarella moving forward in 1978 WC, its not like he was constantly there.
I trust the LB of the tournament to be wise enough to do that.

 

[P-Nut]

Not at all mate. More the merrier
Glad you get to chime in even after the adjusted date.



Come on mate, he is not going to tuck in always. Otherwise, I would have depicted the formation that way.
Based on the situation, he would tuck in if requited and keep a check on Carlos Alberto when he pushes up.

Its the general behavior with full backs tending to tuck in from time to time with narrow attacks without a proper winger.
While Tarantini did the same with Pasarella moving forward in 1978 WC, its not like he was constantly there.
I trust the LB of the tournament to be wise enough to do that.

So what happens when Messi drifts inside and Alberto is up on his outside.

You can't have it both ways that he will be in two places at once. At times if he is ticking in with Messi he will be caught by Alberto going on the outside.

 

[P-Nut]

@idmanager also without the tucking in issue a 2v1 of Messi and C. Alberto Vs Tarantini is a massive mismatch equal to if not more than the 2v1 of Jairzinho and Lahm Vs Carlos wouldn't you say?

 

[idmanager]

So what happens when Messi drifts inside and Alberto is up on his outside.

You can't have it both ways that he will be in two places at once. At times if he is ticking in with Messi he will be caught by Alberto going on the outside.

Of course, he can't be at both places at once. If Alberto pushes up, Tarantini will take care of him, with support from Masopust or Monti to stop Messi.
Now before you ask if Monti steps up , where does that leave Ronaldinho, I'd just say its a chain with players helping each other out and not a chess board with players constantly being in their designated boxes. Something we see week in week out in regfular football matches as well.

 

[idmanager]

@idmanager also without the tucking in issue a 2v1 of Messi and C. Alberto Vs Tarantini is a massive mismatch equal to if not more than the 2v1 of Jairzinho and Lahm Vs Carlos wouldn't you say?

Not really. Get in Garrincha and I am fecked no ends without proper support.
Messi is not a right winger and Tarantini was both a LB and CB throughout his career.
As I mentioned constantly, he covered Passarella'a ass throughout the tournament and is a good fit, style of players wise.
Is he Krol or Maldini? No. But he has the right attributes and tournament experience/performance to face your right flank.

Carlos on the other hand I am afraid is exactly against the flank you wouldn't want him against, no less in a 4 man defense

Lets not forget Tarantini had a great tournament and was in the team of the tournament for his defensive performances, unlike Carlos who was there for his offensive performances.

With his offensive output already cut, might as well have had a better defensive LB there.

 

[idmanager]

I will join more of the discussion post dinner lads.

 

[2mufc0]

id ban all pre-footage players in every draft but while that isnt the case you cant really dismiss them because there is no footage and you pretty much have to trust what you read about them so in theory i dont see why they wouldnt participate in the finals and not only in later rounds.

Agree about banning them.

The biggest issue I have with the written reports is that they are never objective and a lot of the time nostalgic, so it's hard to get the full picture with them either.

Personally i think they should be replaced when you get a chance with reinforcements, though I agree they serve a purpose earlier on when you had no choice but to pick a few.

 

[P-Nut]

Of course, he can't be at both places at once. If Alberto pushes up, Tarantini will take care of him, with support from Masopust or Monti to stop Messi.
Now before you ask if Monti steps up , where does that leave Ronaldinho, I'd just say its a chain with players helping each other out and not a chess board with players constantly being in their designated boxes. Something we see week in week out in regfular football matches as well.

Sorry mate, but something has to give at some point. Sure we all know that players cover each other, but at times you don't want players shuttling from zone to zone.

Messi may not be a winger, but he's more than capable of isolating a full back in a game where he has a free role. When he does that it's 2v1 no matter which way you spin it.

Now I can admit, younger Messi would have favoured doing it more often and would have been a better fit, (if he'd had a great tournament back then), however this version of Messi can still have a high level of impact doing similar things and isolating full backs.

Anyways moving on so far it seems...

My left side struggles to contain your right hand side.

My right hand side has a bit too much for just Tarantini to deal with himself.

So let's take a look at the middle of the park.

Schweinsteiger (Driving force to get Germany to the win)
Vieira (Driving force to get France to the final, subbed due to injury in said final)
Voronin (see clip below)



Every touch in included so unlike most YouTube videos you can't claim it's hiding all the poor stuff. His engine, drive and passing range is a massive standout.

It's an area most teams would struggle to deal with, but with Masopust in their whilst he was adept at it, you wouldn't claim it was one of his strongest assets, and Monti could really do with someone next to him that would be more of an aide I feel.

 

[2mufc0]

@idmanager see my last post for reasoning behind my message earlier, fine to disagree but that's the approach I'll be taking when voting.