He's useless in midfield. He just isnt good enough so either he plays upfront or not at all. LVG always speaks about balance but Rooney in midfield probably creates the most inbalance
10
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- Appearances
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- 14
- Assists
- 6
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- 4
- Red cards
- 1
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He was right because at the time our CMs weren't fit and in form. Rooney can cover for a few matches and help out for sure.
I will join you if you allow me. We don't get penalties anymore, where are our divers ?
I don't see many runs into the penalty box where defenders could potentially make a mistake. I think 2 things needed for most penalties (apart from ref's proper view of incident):
fast runners into the penalty area at full throttle causing panic or through balls cutting across defense where defender have to foul the attacker to avoid 1-1 with GK. Too many crosses United is playing now for defenders to panic, it's easy to settle down and clear crosses.
Sadly too true.
Actually I'd say the further away from playing as a striker that Rooney gets, the more fans overrate his ability as a striker. People forget that he isn't a great striker; thinking that he must be as he's a great player and he isn't a great midfielder/play-maker. People forget his patchy form and positional indiscipline up front caused most people to declare him a great number 10, but merely a good number 9 a few years ago. Then when he was played as a number 10 his poor first touch and average link up play meant he was a poor number 10, but a great number 9. Basically he's great in whatever position he currently isn't playing.
The fact is he's a versatile, hard working but inconsistent player wherever he plays. Being played out of position isn't a reason to regularly fail to make basic 10-15 yard passes. If he were making those basic errors when linking up with a striker he'd be equally poor and frustrating (possibly more so as he'd be spurning good opportunities).
At the moment I agree he should be playing up front, but not because he's some great striker. Mainly because we have better midfielders and our current centre forwards are in poor form.
That just isnt how I remember it at all. In 2011-12 he played up front and scored 34 goals, he was fantastic. When we signed a new striker and pushed him back the following summer some people spoke about SAF not having forgiven him for holding the club to ransom, like it was an act of vindictiveness. Others said, "when a player as good as RVP becomes available you just have to go for it." Either way, people werent talking about us needing a new striker because the one we had wasnt up to it.
Everyone can see it's not difficult to rectify. LVG is acting stubborn for some reason only he knows. You have ADM, Herrera who can easily make those runs, Mata can try those through balls. All it needs is consistent team selection and a formation which players are comfortable with. IMHO
1. Let go of 2 striker theory, just play any one of them.
2. Play either of Rooney/Mata bit advanced, behind the striker.
3. Hererra, Blind, ADM, Fellaini, Carrick can easily be made to play as part of midfield 4 based on availability and opposition.
4. Defence as per the best available choices. I think that's good enough for top 3 spot.
I don't understand what's wrong doing the obvious, one shouldn't act oversmart for his own good.
The pace of his passing is so slow. He never fizzes a pass to feet. We all know about the big long slowly floated ball over to valencia but now when he's making a 20 yard sqaure pass to Di Maria / Blind / Januzaj they are floated over to them....knee height straight at them. So the recieving player has to stand still, take a touch and then look forward.
Its this type of pass that is constantly slowing us down. The amount of times players have to stand still and wait for passes to trickle / float towards them is redcilous. It stops all momentum and pace to our attack. Rooney is by no means the only culprit of this but he's certainly the biggest.
If we are passing to feet we need to be move the ball so much more quickly and really pinging it about. When countering / going forward it needs to be into the on moving players run so to not break their run / momentum.
This to me is blatently obvious school boy type stuff which we are getting terribly wrong.
We always looks like we are playing in a pre-tournement international friendly on some slow rock hard bobbly pitch.
Its this type of pass that is constantly slowing us down. The amount of times players have to stand still and wait for passes to trickle / float towards them is redcilous. It stops all momentum and pace to our attack. Rooney is by no means the only culprit of this but he's certainly the biggest.
If we are passing to feet we need to be move the ball so much more quickly and really pinging it about. When countering / going forward it needs to be into the on moving players run so to not break their run / momentum.
This to me is blatently obvious school boy type stuff which we are getting terribly wrong.
We always looks like we are playing in a pre-tournement international friendly on some slow rock hard bobbly pitch.
Rooney's passing is so damn sloppy. He's too slow in the middle, play him up top ffs.
Rooney has played up front for several lengthy periods and has had mixed results. He played a large chunk of the 06/07 and 07/08 seasons as a number 9 and didn't set the world alight. He also alternated the position with Berbatov for the 08/09 season and the start of the 10/11 season and went through lengthy periods of poor form (before Hernandez started playing). The 11/12 season he played up front often as well, on the whole he played very well but again he was inconsistent (if I recall he went through a couple of baron spells where he looked poor mid Sept - mid Dec and end Dec - end Jan). He basically started the season fantastically and finished fantastically which made the season seem brilliant on a whole. The 09/10 season he was great throughout.
Overall people remember the great periods of Rooney as a number 9 and forget the lengthy periods of inconsistency and mediocrity. They forget his positional indiscipline, forget his inability to play as a sole striker, forget his inconsistent first touch and remember maybe 50 games out of the 150 that he's played up front that he was in great form.
However I watch Rooney and I see a player who when on his game is a 10/10 player in central midfield, as a number 10 or as a number 9. His first touch is immaculate, his finishing phenomenal, long passing is fantastic, work rate/drive/determination are brilliant and short passing is very good. On the top of his game he is Shearer as a centre forward, Scholes in central midfielder and not a million miles away from Messi as a number 10.
The problem is he attains his absolute top level quite rarely and sustains a top level not nearly enough. For his ability Rooney plays a 5/10 infinitely more than 10/10.
That's true for all strikers, not just Rooney. We watch Rooney every single game and at the same time presume every other top striker never goes through a barren spell. Rooney's barren spells are even tougher to judge the likeliood is not all of those games were spent playing as a striker. We have another striker at the club in RVP who goes through his share of barren spells.
He's only had 2 seasons where he's pretty much consistently played up top and he scored 30+ in both the seasons.
And 50 in 150 is a ridiculous figure, one you've pulled out of nowhere.
What is his price and who could afford him? PSG? Surely Coleen likes Paris..
The reason he hasn't played more often as a number 9 is because he's often not been great there. I disagree that he's only had 2 seasons there, after Ruud left he played up front consistently until RVP was signed. The 06/07, 07/08, 08/09, 09/10, 10/11 & 11/12 seasons had Rooney playing up front far more often than not, 4 of these 6 seasons he didn't play great there which culminated in Hernandez playing himself into the position half way through the final season. During that period he played with Berbatov alongside him, Tevez alongside him, Ronaldo behind him, as well as briefly Saha and Hernandez ahead of him. Over this period you could point to 50-60 games where he showed consistency as a number 9: which was all of 09/10, a couple of months at the start of 11/12 and 3 months at the end of 11/12.
Hernandez form in 2010-2011 is a prime example of how playing brilliant will get you a place in the team, regardless. Unfortunately Rooney hasn't shown this level of form in 3 years. The only argument for starting Rooney up front is "everyone else is in poor form and Rooney was great 3 years ago".
That was poor from him yesterday. I think generally he's done pretty well in CM, although sitting too deep. BUT yesterday was poor. Herrera should have come on and him go up top at half time! Falcao or RVP could have been subbed, given Rooney a chance up top and then if that not worked then bring on Fellaini as what happened anyway. (Or even Fellaini into CM at half time and then further forward later if required).
If he doesnt go up top against Leicester I think LVG is being stubborn once again, cos he cant argue RVP or Falcao had a good game so why they should be rewarded with another start, and cant argue Rooney is doing well in CM at the moment as he's been average the last few games. Why not switch it round.
At home I would hope we wouldnt start Fellaini up top and play long balls against Burnley, I'd hope wed have enough to white wash them with attacking football.
If he doesnt go up top against Leicester I think LVG is being stubborn once again, cos he cant argue RVP or Falcao had a good game so why they should be rewarded with another start, and cant argue Rooney is doing well in CM at the moment as he's been average the last few games. Why not switch it round.
At home I would hope we wouldnt start Fellaini up top and play long balls against Burnley, I'd hope wed have enough to white wash them with attacking football.
Disagree with this, after Ruud left Ronaldo, Tevez, Berbatov and even Saha were playing upfront while Rooney was often shunted to the left wing because Ronaldo was a liability playing on the wing. Yes he did play the odd game upfront in that period but he wasn't consistently played there for 30+ games, when he did he was pretty good.
Youre going back 7, 8, 9 years to assess his contribution as a striker. At that time, yes, he looked more like a second striker. But for me it is largely irrelevant considering his most recent spell up front dispelled any doubt about where he should be playing. His inability to play as a solo striker? He proved himself more than capable of playing that role then. Some people felt the rest of his game suffered when playing up there which is a separate argument, but in his primary task of scoring goals he excelled.
Maybe he had a bit of a lull in the middle of the season but I dont remember it being a huge one, his stats for the season were very good. As @akash02 said, that happens to every striker. I really dont think this is a case of rose-tinted hindsight, all things considered the facts point to his best position being up top.
The only thing he lacks as a number 9 is the ability play well with his back to goal. Which is where his indiscipline comes from. If the team is playing well he'll stay up top and not drop deep but the worse our performance is the deeper he comes. I prefer him as a #10 in an any case even if it means fewer goals.
It's pretty much a fact. He's only had 2 season of consistently playing there. At various points, you've had Saha, Larsson, Tevez, Berbatov, RVP all play in front of him. Then there was also the period where Fergie stuck Ronaldo up top and played Rooney out wide although this was mainly in the CL games. Not that he hasn't played there at all. He has but not had a long run of games there. So unless you can come up with some sort of stats of how many games he played as #9 and how many goals/assists he has in just those games, it's all a bit pointless.
Or you could aalso say, Rooney was great the last time he played there. He also started last season playing up top and scoring goals before moving deeper as the season went on.
Again this is a myth. Berbatov and Rooney both played a 9.5's the majority of the time, Tevez and Rooney both played as 9.5's more often than not. You could count the number of games Ronaldo played as a centre forward on both hands and during the stated period Saha started around 25 league games.
And you're using a period 5 years ago to assess his ability as a centre forward, or looking very favourably on a season 3 years ago.
I could understand one manager having a blind spot to his qualities as a centre forward; but all three of our managers have dismissed the option of playing him up front. Fergie tried him there after Ruud left and with mixed results signed Hernandez and then RVP; Moyes tried him there but he ended up playing in other positions more often than not and now Van Gaal has tried him anywhere but the strikers position. Fans must accept there is something these people don't see in him that they do (or vice versa)?
He lacks many qualities to be a great number 9. He can't play with his back to goal, his first touch is too poor to play as a lone striker, his short passing often breaks down quick attacks and his positional indiscipline means that frequently he isn't in the box when you need him to be.
Again I don't agree that it's a fact he's only played 2 seasons as a number 9 and he wasn't great last time he played there, he was inconsistent. Which is exactly the problem with Rooney in any position he plays. I accept that almost every striker goes through dry patches, but with Rooney it wasn't just his failure to score during these (too frequent) periods, it was the fact that his level can drop to such a low that negatively effects the team far more when you're the focal point.
In my opinion a wide forward role would probably be the most forgiving for Rooney, given his inconsistencies but terrific work rate.
His first touch is quite good. Just because he has the odd stinker does not mean he has a poor first touch. Breaks down quick attacks? That's just complete nonsense. Some of the best counter attacks and fast paced goals we've scored have involved Rooney. His short passing is more than good enough when he plays as a #9 or #10 because it's mostly based on instinct. It's when he plays CM that it becomes suspect. Again, his positional indiscipline only comes to the fore when the team is playing shite and he feels the need to drop back.
You may not agree but it's the truth. Also, not the word consistent. He's only had 2 seasons of consistently playing there. That's irrefutable.
He's best as a #10 where he brings balance to the team while contributing plenty of goals and assists.
You have to bang your head against the wall when you go to a place like west ham and play Wayne Rooney at centre mid. Shocking. We should've played a three man midfield yesterday of Blind, Fellaini and Herrera. Rooney up front on his own, Di Maria and Januzaj on the sides. We were bloody awful and LVG is starting to get on my nerves.
To be fair, he scored 34 goals in 43 games, with a midfield of Cleverley, Anderson, Carrick, Young, Giggs and Park supporting him. You can call that 'inconsistent' if you want, but it was a fantastic return.
I just occassionally laugh at the fact that we have the current leading Premier League goalscorer who will most likely go on to break not only our record but the Premier League record for goals sat as a defensive central midfielder. It's pathetic.
His first touch is very poor. Di Maria, RVP and Mata have a good first touch, it is one of Rooney's biggest flaws.
He's only had 2 full seasons playing 100% a number 9 because of form, nothing else (although I class playing as a 9.5 as no different to a centre forward; I certainly wouldn't say Cole and Yorke were playing out of position). You can't play someone in a position for a full season, if for 3-4 months they look poor and/or inconsistent in that position, particularly when it is arguably the most important position on the pitch. Rooney is fortunate in the sense that when he's out of form as a striker, he drops back as a number 10 or number 8 to take him out of the spotlight. Most player's when out of the form get dropped back to the bench, but Rooney's qualities mean he is a benefit to the team wherever he plays.
I've said many times before: Rooney isn't at his best in any particular position. Rooney is at his best when Rooney is at his best. When he hits this form he's a joy to watch as a midfielder, wide forward, play-maker or centre forward. Unfortunately he's a player who has never been able to sustain great form. In nearly 11 seasons at the club you could probably point to 3 great seasons, 3 good season and 4.5 mediocre seasons. One of those truly great seasons he was a number 9, one he was a number 10 and one he played both. Likewise with the 3 good seasons and likewise with the mediocre ones.
Falcao up front is costing us points now, and RVP to a degree. It's obvious we are struggling to create chances, so the chances we do create need to be scored. Rooney does just that. For the next game I would like to see Rooney pushed up with RVP and Falcao dropped. Fellaini and Blind into midfield with Herrera, Di Maria and Mata playing behind Rooney. Make sure Rooney stays up top, because that heat-map from BBC is showing that Falcao, Di Maria and RVP are getting in each others way.
Im using one period, which is the most recent one available where he played in the position in question. That strikes me as being more rational than leapfrogging it entirely and looking at 2 or 3 seasons before that where he was played in a number of different positions and was still developing as a young player.
However I will concede your second para does pose problems for me. In isolation each manager's treatment of Rooney can be explained easily enough but taken together, as you said, it does look like the managers see something the fans dont.
Doesnt change the fact that all three managers, who have made a living managing football teams and doubtlessly know a lot more about football than I do, look wrong from where Im sitting. So I will continue to hope (though with almost zero expectation) to see Rooney played up front on his own in the next game, and in every upcoming game until the facts change - i.e. till Rooney has been tried there and has failed, or until one of the other strikers makes himself undroppable.
They see a squad that is profoundly flawed with a talented, versatile and extremely hard-working footballer able to help try and paper over the cracks?
We don't even know if our squad is flawed, we keep picking players out of position rather than trusting the specialists we have.
Shunting Di Maria and Rooney as our best two attacking players, and leaving Mata (our next best) out of the team is unforgivable IMO.
Shunting Di Maria and Rooney as our best two attacking players, and leaving Mata (our next best) out of the team is unforgivable IMO.
Was thinking Engalnd game may be a good thing to get him back up top.
However with Kane and Sturridge (Who could make a good pair) - will Hodgson mix Rooney up in CM for England?
However with Kane and Sturridge (Who could make a good pair) - will Hodgson mix Rooney up in CM for England?
He used him out wide at the World Cup to play Sterling through the middle, I'm sure he'd do similar to get Kane and Sturridge in.
Evidently. God knows where they are getting that from.
Seriously though. Three managers have successively declined, on the whole, to play Rooney up front which is where I think he plays best. I dont find his midfield performances as awful as many on here do but let's face it, it isnt optimal for him. If the problem is there is nobody else in the squad with the qualities he has in midfield, there have been windows when this could have been addressed. But I dont think that is really the problem. We can cobble together a midfield without him in it, the reason he isnt playing up front is Van Gaal doesnt fancy him there, not that he cant be spared from midfield, IMO.
I was looking at his career as a whole, but yes I agree he was good the last time he played as a number 9 consistently. However I also think he was one of the better player's last season as a number 10.
I think it's also pertinent that fans still argue where Rooney's best position is after watching him for 11 years. If there were a straightforward answer it would have been conclusively answered half a decade ago. A number of them say it's as a number 9, quite a lot say it's as a number 10 and then there's people like myself that think it's neither. Rooney is the only Footballer I can think of that doesn't actually have a position.
Rooney is a bizarre hybrid of several types of player's, which actually makes him good but not great in almost any position. If you could swap a couple of his qualities with a couple of his weaknesses you could have the perfect number 8, number 10, number 9 or wide forward. Bizarrely however he has a (or a couple of) key weaknesses for each of these positions, whilst possessing an array of strengths which aren't natural to a player of these specific positions.
That's how I feel: versatile player who can help out if needed for a few games, but his default position should remain CF.
It's hard to believe that a player as talented as Rooney is being used as a utility man. Egregious.
And he is genuinely average in central midfield.
And he is genuinely average in central midfield.
This is how I feel about Rooney too.
It takes a full season to make him a natural CM at Football Manager 2015. Calm down guys. Lolz
Does anyone remember these quotes from Van Gaal, in regards to letting Welbeck go?
"He played here for three seasons after (his loan to) Sunderland, but he doesn’t have the record of Van Persie or Rooney and that is the standard".
If that's the standard, then why are we playing one of our best goalscorers so fecking deep?
"He played here for three seasons after (his loan to) Sunderland, but he doesn’t have the record of Van Persie or Rooney and that is the standard".
If that's the standard, then why are we playing one of our best goalscorers so fecking deep?
I know stats aren't everything, but on paper that shows what a bloody good go he is giving it. Taking the captain's duty seriously and rolling his sleeves up. Good to see.
He should be playing up front though, at least we should be trying him there whilst we are in this slump.
Agreed, right now he should definitely be playing up front just to get us a bit of momentum if nothing else, but I think those stats highlight the fact that, if RVP and Fatcao were scoring from the chances we create, it wouldn't be a problem that he's playing in CM.
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