Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances

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Jaybezia said:
That doesn't really answer it though, I appreciate what your saying but are you denying they had a similar or Rooney higher than CR touted potential when they joined in 2004? I don't think there is any argument who turned out the better player... but who looked like they had more potential? It has to be Rooney...
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It really didn't. The English press were more excited by Rooney as the great white (Pele) hope and he was a proper English-style talent. Jumpers for goalposts, runs all day, big lad with skill - he was Roy of the Rovers and younger (and tactically better) than Ronaldo.

Ronaldo was a different kind of talent. George Best said, "Everyone went crazy over Wayne Rooney, but I get more excited by Cristiano Ronaldo." I agreed with George but we were always a minority back then.

The question mark over Ronaldo was whether he could do find a way to use that talent for United and it took him a while but he got there.

The fact remains though if you look at who had the potential to be the better long term talent for United, it was Rooney, because Ronaldo buggered off.
 
I was a Ronaldo supporter back in the day, but you'd have been purely guessing to say Ronaldo had more potential at the time - Rooney was showing way more effectiveness at that age.
 
Zen86 said:
Mainly because he grew chest hair when he was 8 and was a fully grown bloke by 17.
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:lol:

jojojo said:
It really didn't. The English press were more excited by Rooney as the great white (Pele) hope and he was a proper English-style talent. Jumpers for goalposts, runs all day, big lad with skill - he was Roy of the Rovers and younger (and tactically better) than Ronaldo.

Ronaldo was a different kind of talent. George Best said, "Everyone went crazy over Wayne Rooney, but I get more excited by Cristiano Ronaldo." I agreed with George but we were always a minority back then.
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Thats a bit unfair as you need to compare their transfer value's also, I appreciate Rooney's was partially inflated due to early maturity and being English but to say Ronaldo looked like he had more potential is surely a bit dismissive? And you said it perfectly when you state 'we were always in the minority back then' proving that the general view was that Rooney had more potential.

jojojo said:
The question mark over Ronaldo was whether he could do find a way to use that talent for United and it took him a while but he got there.
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That's my point though, even at United he looked a better player... not Rooney.

jojojo said:
The fact remains though if you look at who had the potential to be the better long term talent for United, it was Rooney, because Ronaldo buggered off.
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Had being the optimum word there, if you are thinking of going back and looking at who HAD the most talent potential for United, it would still be Rooney as you couldn't predict CR leaving at that point in 2004.
 
Jaybezia said:
Read a lot of papers this morning comparing him to CR when they both joined in 2004 and how Rooney was touted to have more talent, and how Madrid focused their team around CR, United used Rooney to 'do a job' on the wings, while CR is one of the best players in the world, Rooney looks very good but never capable of reaching that top gear of potential he looked so much more destined to fill at an earlier age...


Would you agree or disagree with that?
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I kind of do. I mean, I think he's more than 'very good', he's one of the best players in the world. But he's not quite as good as he should have been... his touch is sometimes sublime but often inconsistent, he's lost considerable pace (though he's certainly not slow), and he's lost the explosiveness he had early in his career.

He's compensated to an extent by becoming a much more mature player, a great passer (though again, when in worse form the skill seems to desert him) and a real team player.

As for why, I think it's mostly injuries, and partly the way he's been used. He's had to play out of position too much, he's played too many games, especially when coming back from injuries.... the Bayern game in 2010 was criminal, he should never have been playing. And maybe there was too much pressure on him to carry the side in 04-6 and 10-12, which can burn players out.

He's still our best player along with RVP though.
 
Plechazunga said:
I kind of do. I mean, I think he's more than 'very good', he's one of the best players in the world. But he's not quite as good as he should have been... his touch is sometimes sublime but often inconsistent, he's lost considerable pace (though he's certainly not slow), and he's lost the explosiveness he had early in his career.

He's compensated to an extent by becoming a much more mature player, a great passer (though again, when in worse form the skill seems to desert him) and a real team player.

As for why, I think it's mostly injuries, and partly the way he's been used. He's had to play out of position too much, he's played too many games, especially when coming back from injuries.... the Bayern game in 2010 was criminal, he should never have been playing. And maybe there was too much pressure on him to carry the side in 04-6 and 10-12, which can burn players out.

He's still our best player along with RVP though.
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I don't buy into the injury toll or that he's played too many games but definitely the loss of pace is a big factor in him not becoming what was possible.

Unfortunately though I think he personally needs a move. I don't think he has that spark anymore, he's been here that long that he's going through the motions to some extent. Once you decide to leave a club, as he did, I can't see how you can truly move on from that. The feelings must have been pretty strong to take that decision and how can you just lock them away.

This isn't me saying that he's coasting, he's clearly still committed and obviously a very good player, but he's missing the spark and enjoyment that comes from a new challenge.
 
I do think the loss of explosiveness is 100% because of his injuries. It happens so much in football, countless players lose acceleration and have to redefine their games as a result. It's a shame, but I'm just glad Rooney has been able to adapt to it. Three metatarsal breaks by the time he was 22.
 
MrMojo said:
I don't buy into the injury toll or that he's played too many games but definitely the loss of pace is a big factor in him not becoming what was possible.

Unfortunately though I think he personally needs a move. I don't think he has that spark anymore, he's been here that long that he's going through the motions to some extent. Once you decide to leave a club, as he did, I can't see how you can truly move on from that. The feelings must have been pretty strong to take that decision and how can you just lock them away.

This isn't me saying that he's coasting, he's clearly still committed and obviously a very good player, but he's missing the spark and enjoyment that comes from a new challenge.
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Why did he lose his pace if not because of his injuries?
 
MrMojo said:
Unfortunately though I think he personally needs a move. I don't think he has that spark anymore, he's been here that long that he's going through the motions to some extent. Once you decide to leave a club, as he did, I can't see how you can truly move on from that.
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I don't agree with that at all, and I don't think he really wanted a move either. He was pissed off at having to carry the side all the time, and wanted investment, and we called his bluff.

If he went to Madrid or Bayern I doubt his touch would get any more consistent or he'd hit the ball from distance like he used to.
 
MrMojo said:
Change of physique, he's bigger and heavier now than he was 6 years ago. That's not his fault, just the natural way his body has matured.
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It's a factor but I'm not convinced it's the key. The explosiveness started to fade right when his spate of metatarsal injuries accumulated. April 2006 and August 2007 were the big ones, also because he was also rushed back for the World Cup in between them, and it's just not realistic for someone's body to take that kind of punishment without losing the burst of speed that was inherent in a young, physically unbruised player.
 
Plechazunga said:
I don't agree with that at all, and I don't think he really wanted a move either. He was pissed off at having to carry the side all the time, and wanted investment, and we called his bluff.

If he went to Madrid or Bayern I doubt his touch would get any more consistent or he'd hit the ball from distance like he used to.
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I think if he moved, with a fresh challenge, a fresh demand, you'd see a better player. I don't blame him for this, we all to some extent become complacent in a long term job, that's why people move on to new challenges. It takes a pretty special character to 10 years down the line play with the same buzz and natural enthusiasm you had at the beginning.
 
See, I think that's just misguided, Mojo. I don't think a lack of enthusiasm or "buzz" is at all a factor in the way Rooney's game has developed. He does everything with the same enthusiasm he's had for years, it's just those tasks include those of a maturing player; staying in position, keeping the ball, making the right runs. I find the idea that he'd go back to anything like 2004/05 Rooney if he changed clubs to be a bit fantastical tbh!
 
I think Mojo makes a valid point. Ronaldo wanted to move and had a average season by his standards the year before he moved. Then again Messi is breaking records year on year but he has never wanted to move. I don't think he'd be a much better player but I think a slightly better version of the Rooney that scored 34 goals in 2010 would make an appearance (yes I know he scored 34 in 2012 but I don't think that season was on the same level as 2010).
 
I think he's fine and motivated by other targets (regular trophies, and on a personal level, the top scorer of the club record). He's just a player that smiles that much or that goes round saying how happy he is most of the time, that's just his temperament.
 
Plech is bang on with with his sentiment regarding Rooney. Everyone who saw him at the Euros 2004 must have thought he was going to rule the footballing world. I think injuries have taken it's tool, didn't one of the doctors that looked after him before WC 2006 say he was going to suffer in the future if rushed to play there?

He's one hell of a player and became the better footballer since then. He matured, became more complete and can play pretty much anywhere on the pitch. Is more disciplined and trustworthy.

I have to say he looked to have more in his locker than Ronaldo did when they started their United careers. Maybe he just didn't have as big room for improvement, though?

I'm more than happy with him anyway, we just play better when he's in the side. Such a team player, 'the heartbeat of United' isn't exaggerated term.
 
wr8_utd said:
He was good in the first half and faded in the second. I'd like to see RvP or Hernandez or any top striker play at right wing at the Bernebeau and put in a great performance. He sacrificed himself for the team today and put in a shift.
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I see the caf is back to being nonsensical about Rooney again. Sacrifice? Please. It's called playing out of position you gimps. He put in a shift and could have provided more help for Rafael defensively but he was alright. Nothing more.

Yet there seems to be the need to overcompensate when it comes to Rooney when he's not played in his best position. I'm not sure why. Is Welbeck sacrificing himself when he doesn't get played centrally but instead does a shift out wide? I mean seriously.

The manager decides to play in a less familiar position knowing you can at least do a job there. What else is there to takeaway from this?
 
Platato said:
I see the caf is back to being nonsensical about Rooney again. Sacrifice? Please. It's called playing out of position you gimps. He put in a shift and could have provided more help for Rafael defensively but he was alright. Nothing more.

Yet there seems to be the need to overcompensate when it comes to Rooney when he's not played in his best position. I'm not sure why. Is Welbeck sacrificing himself when he doesn't get played centrally but instead does a shift out wide? I mean seriously.

The manager decides to play in a less familiar position knowing you can at least do a job there. What else is there to takeaway from this?
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Yes?
 
Jaybezia said:
That doesn't really answer it though, I appreciate what your saying but are you denying they had a similar or Rooney higher than CR touted potential when they joined in 2004? I don't think there is any argument who turned out the better player... but who looked like they had more potential? It has to be Rooney...
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I think the thing about Rooney having more potential in 2004 is a bit of a media construction, just read this thread:

https://www.redcafe.net/f9/fergie-25m-bid-rooney-41507/
 
shaggy said:
I think Mojo makes a valid point. Ronaldo wanted to move and had a average season by his standards the year before he moved. Then again Messi is breaking records year on year but he has never wanted to move. I don't think he'd be a much better player but I think a slightly better version of the Rooney that scored 34 goals in 2010 would make an appearance (yes I know he scored 34 in 2012 but I don't think that season was on the same level as 2010).
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I really don't see it, and the example you use doesn't really fit. Ronaldo was actively chasing a dream and was, despite beginning his last season with us with a bad injury and clearly wanting out, on an upward trajectory. Ronaldo was obviously a special case. There is zero evidence that Rooney is not motivated at United or that his form is in any way suffering from a lack of spark. It's simply the player he has become today, and people don't want to believe that the pre-injury Rooney doesn't exist anymore.
 
I don't want to see anymore of Rooney in a defensive or worker role.

I admire his effort but Jones and Welbeck are younger and have the better physical attributes to do it.

Rooney is too experienced and creative for this kind of work. Rooney still has great strenght, stamina and still very good pace, but not close to Jones and Welbeck who are like freaks out there.

Rooney must play behind the striker, similar to the role Gerrard had when Torres was at Liverpool.

Rooney is as productive as ever and shouldn't have any restrictions on his role regardless of the opposition.
 
RedDevilCanuck said:
I don't want to see anymore of Rooney in a defensive or worker role.

I admire his effort but Jones and Welbeck are younger and have the better physical attributes to do it.

Rooney is too experienced and creative for this kind of work. Rooney still has great strenght, stamina and still very good pace, but not close to Jones and Welbeck who are like freaks out there.

Rooney must play behind the striker, similar to the role Gerrard had when Torres was at Liverpool.

Rooney is as productive as ever and shouldn't have any restrictions on his role regardless of the opposition.
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It's not really an either / or thing though.

When he's playing in his best position - in the hole - he naturally drops so deep that he helps out a lot in midfield anyway. It's the perfect position for him - he can run the game, create goals, and score goals.
 
While I accept that Rooney played out of position on Wednesday, what I won't accept is that it is a valid excuse for him being unable to pass or control the ball to an expected standard.

I said earlier in the thread, but this whole 'free-pass' players get due to playing out of positiondoesn't wash with me. Everyone, including the manager, knows their position, but there are still expectations of a player when played in a certain role. If Fergie plays Rooney out wide, I'm very sure he has not accepted that it is perfectly fine for him to have a shocking game. I'm not even saying Rooney was awful anyway, he did a good defensive job, but could have done a lot better in possession.

Fans will say whatever suits an argument at a time anyway I reckon. The same Rooney has had outstanding games when played out wide too.
 
Gazza said:
See, I think that's just misguided, Mojo. I don't think a lack of enthusiasm or "buzz" is at all a factor in the way Rooney's game has developed. He does everything with the same enthusiasm he's had for years, it's just those tasks include those of a maturing player; staying in position, keeping the ball, making the right runs. I find the idea that he'd go back to anything like 2004/05 Rooney if he changed clubs to be a bit fantastical tbh!
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Then it's a good job I didn't say that. He's obviously changed as a player, changes that are here for good. I'm not saying by moving he'll completely revert to 2004, just that a fresh challenge would get that bit extra out of him that most believe he has. You're right there is no actual evidence of this, it is just my observation.

On him playing wide, how he plays that role is dictated by his and his teammates performance. If you keep giving the ball away then of course you'll spend most of the game chasing it. If you use possession well then there's no reason that he and others couldn't have been more attacking and spent less time chasing back. That position is what you make of it, it's not determined before the games started.
 
Rozay said:
While I accept that Rooney played out of position on Wednesday, what I won't accept is that it is a valid excuse for him being unable to pass or control the ball to an expected standard.

I said earlier in the thread, but this whole 'free-pass' players get due to playing out of positiondoesn't wash with me. Everyone, including the manager, knows their position, but there are still expectations of a player when played in a certain role. If Fergie plays Rooney out wide, I'm very sure he has not accepted that it is perfectly fine for him to have a shocking game. I'm not even saying Rooney was awful anyway, he did a good defensive job, but could have done a lot better in possession.

Fans will say whatever suits an argument at a time anyway I reckon. The same Rooney has had outstanding games when played out wide too.
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nobody's saying his passing was something to brag about, or that he had a good game.
I don't know why people suddenly think everyone's trying to be apologetic when half the people haven't even said a positive thing about Rooney in that last game, it's mostly criticism.

The argument here is him generaly being more involved in the play and having a greater influence on the game when he's played behind the striker as opposed to playing out wide, how succesfully one passes the ball is not determined by the position he plays in, and Rooney was rightfully criticised for not doing that part of the job well.
 
OGkush said:
nobody's saying his passing was something to brag about, or that he had a good game.
I don't know why people suddenly think everyone's trying to be apologetic when half the people haven't even said a positive thing about Rooney in that last game, it's mostly criticism.

The argument here is him generaly being more involved in the play and having a greater influence on the game when he's played behind the striker as opposed to playing out wide, how succesfully one passes the ball is not determined by the position he plays in, and Rooney was rightfully criticised for not doing that part of the job well.
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That's fair enough then. I hadn't read a lot of the recent posts, but I was the first person to make a post-match comment about him in here, but it was based around his technical performance as opposed to his attacking contribution. Just wanted to highlight that again as some of the posts that followed referenced the role he was playing.
 
I'm not making excuses for Rooney.

Fact is, he is an excellent finisher, great header of the ball, can pick out a through ball, can play cross field passes, and can play 1-2's around the box.

Have him as part of the focal point of attacking, or don't play him at all.

Rooney has proven he can play with the big boys, look at his record in CL knockouts.
 
Fergus' son said:
Yes?
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How is he sacrificing himself? He's doing a shift in another position. That's not sacrifice. That's fulfilling another role. Is he making the choice to play out wide?

The fact fans,media,pundits etc., even use the word 'sacrifice' in such a context is absolutely ridiculous. It makes no sense. Call it nitpicking or what have you but I am baffled that people use the word 'sacrifice' pertaining to footballers. It's madness.
 
I still think that if Rooney played for a team reknowned for its passing, we'd see a better player. He plays for a United side and England team which can't keep the ball to the level of a Bayern, Barcelona and Real and he's not explosive enough these days to create magic out of little possession.. his game is geared to being in a pass and move team and dictating the tempo. At United especially in top games, he's made to do a water carrier role and when he does get on the ball, he's too anxious to make his mark..

Imagine him playing for Spain or Barcelona, I believe people would view him differently.

Both him and Kagawa are playing for sides which are not well-suited to them.
 
I'm increasingly confused as to why Rooney seems unable to hit his best form this season. Yes, he has played well at times but not his best. When Wayne Rooney is really on it he's pretty much unstoppable. The reason Scolari felt able to compare him with Pele in 2004 was because Rooney looked set to steam roll that entire tournament. When he scored that hat-trick against Fenerbache on his debut we all thought we were seeing something very, very special and there have been times when Rooney has been very, very special but not lately.

Despite Rooney's goals and assist records this season I do not feel as if Wayne Rooney has had a genuinely top level performance, by his own standards, for over a year. I cannot think of any game in which Rooney has looked like he looked in the home leg of the 09/10 Champions League vs Milan, for example. I can't remember any game in which he's looked like he did in the second half at West Ham in 10/11, for example. This season his passing has been far less accurate than in previous years, he hasn't consistently shown his dogged running to beat people, his touch is not as reliable as it has been in the past. He can still hit the high notes but he's not singing a tune anymore, just blurting out the best inconsistently.

If Rooney were playing as well as he did during the run in, in 2010/11 where he was scoring a stupid amount of goals and laying on constant chances for Hernandez do you think Kagawa would have started on Wednesday...?
 
Rooney was in good form after his games against Fulham and Southampton. Played well for England against Brazil. Everton game he did a lot of defending but was still good.

I wouldn't blame Rooney's form for not starting behind RVP, especially when Kagawa played ahead of him in that role who has been injured recently and just coming back in.
 
Raees said:
I still think that if Rooney played for a team reknowned for its passing, we'd see a better player. He plays for a United side and England team which can't keep the ball to the level of a Bayern, Barcelona and Real and he's not explosive enough these days to create magic out of little possession.. his game is geared to being in a pass and move team and dictating the tempo. At United especially in top games, he's made to do a water carrier role and when he does get on the ball, he's too anxious to make his mark..

Imagine him playing for Spain or Barcelona, I believe people would view him differently.

Both him and Kagawa are playing for sides which are not well-suited to them.
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That's true to an extent, but come on, we're hardly that far behind Bayern or Real for that matter in keeping the ball. We're definitely improving and the fact that we invested a player like Kagawa proves that we are striving to improve in that regard.
 
I think Rooney has been underrated by alot people and those who don't watch United on a regular basis don't understand the role and responsibilities he's been asked to do. It seems like people who criticize him, still see him or think he is an out and out striker in the Van Nistelrooy mould, which has only been the case a couple of seasons in his United career.

When asked to play behind the striker or as a setup man for whomever our talisman was (Van Nistelrooy, Saha, Ronaldo) his numbers have been comparable and sometimes better than those of Kaka or Ronaldinho when they were being called the best player in the world and asked to do the same thing. He didn't do it with same flair or wow factor they did, but he also contributed defensively and with more effect than Kaka or Ronaldinho did.

The few times he's been asked to step up and be our talisman he more than delivered and has shown he has the ability to be a great goalscorer as well.
 
This stuff about Rooney and his pace...I think it was Welbeck the other week that implied that Rooney was still up there with the fastest in training when quizzed upon whether he himself was the fastest.

He may have lost some pace, but players can look slower running with the ball when they're not as confident. Rooney is clearly less confident and spontaneous when dribbling and controlling a football these days than he was in 2006, and I think a lot of the reason for that is because he's too busy wondering whether or not to do it instead of just going for it (same goes for his shooting from range, I'd say). Think a lot of people would agree that when you play football and aren't feeling 100% confident on the ball you can feel a lot slower, less fit and less agile.

I'm thinking that's what's going on with Valencia currently too as opposed to some sort of injury/decline in pace.

As for Rooney's performance against Madrid, it was pretty poor to be fair. No point trying to cover it up by saying it was inevitable with the role he played or that he sacrificed himself - playing defensively/working hard doesn't necessitate poor passing and first touch.

It happens though. He's been in good form over the last month for United and England so no real need to be overly concerned on that count. I don't think it helped anyone the other day that we were so collectively anxious in possession and slow to react. It sort of set the tone for the whole team in that sense and made Madrid smell blood whenever we had the ball.
 
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