Should have signed most of ajax players and turn this club into ajax but with more money.
Rather than this 'the best team at transition'.
Rather than this 'the best team at transition'.
Was Ten Hag’s "Man Utd will never play like Ajax" his Ole "Trophies are for ego’s" moment?
- Thread starter The Oracle
- Start date
I’m on the ETH out camp but it’s amazing to see the lengths some would go to drive their agenda home by quoting him out of context. Truth is, based on our recent history thus far, all new managers have a 70-80% chance of failing when they arrive. This is a fact that we’ve got to accept in the current structure unless INEOS do something.
Here's a question.
Why haven't his bosses asked him to implement the Ajax method of play, which he built his reputation on?
We hired him because we liked the work he was doing at Ajax and we wanted some of that at MUFC.
He has had ample time, money and backing to bring in the players that he needed to implement his own style of play.
It seems to me that he joined us and thought that he would create a whole new style of play, which has/is not working.
It is bizarre that he hasn't thought about duplicating the Ajax system - he knows how to do it. Just implement it.
Why haven't his bosses asked him to implement the Ajax method of play, which he built his reputation on?
We hired him because we liked the work he was doing at Ajax and we wanted some of that at MUFC.
He has had ample time, money and backing to bring in the players that he needed to implement his own style of play.
It seems to me that he joined us and thought that he would create a whole new style of play, which has/is not working.
It is bizarre that he hasn't thought about duplicating the Ajax system - he knows how to do it. Just implement it.
There has to be a trophy for this thread title 
What utter garbage!
What utter garbage!
Whilst the club employs people like Rashford and Bruno Fernandes we will never move away from counter attack football.
Rashford is a pace merchant and Bruno is too erratic in any other system, he needs that quick transition from Def > Bruno > running attacker over or through.
we simply can’t play any other way if these two are kept as important players.
Rashford is a pace merchant and Bruno is too erratic in any other system, he needs that quick transition from Def > Bruno > running attacker over or through.
we simply can’t play any other way if these two are kept as important players.
It’s strange that he doesn’t want to play like he did at Ajax or at least try it. I meant he has bought halve of the squad he had at Ajax so if he’s changing the style of play here it means they also have to change their style of play.
It was his "I don't know wtf i am doing" moment.
Well I wouldn’t know but Antony is definitely ETH priority signing early in summer, but maybe just not our first priority (was always FDJ).
Also to answer your question, back then Ronaldo was still with us when ETH took over, and he has ended up the prior season as top 3 striker in PL and club player of the season, while our wing forward has been rather poor in prior season (Rashford was shite, Sancho can’t find his feet).
So perhaps our search for top class striker wasn’t the most pressing need at that time?
I feel ETH priority was always midfielder (FDJ and Eriksen), and defender (Timber and/or Martinez), and finally attacker (Nunez or Antony)
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That's the thing, though — to play Captain Hindsight (while making certain assumptions that might not be grounded in reality for all we know), maybe he does not know how to successfully duplicate Ajax's system? Without discrediting what he accomplished there (one might argue that he was their greatest, or at least one of the greatest, Head Coaches since Louis van Gaal in the 1990s, and is a modern icon of the club — no one can or should deny him those decorations), maybe successfully replicating Ajax's system, seemigly all on his own, is simply a step too far for him?
Clubs like Ajax and Barcelona are a bit unique in the sense that have long-standing footballing principles (and dogmas), and a good idea of how they want to operate and play (which trickles down on an institutional level, and folk (particularly outsiders who are brought in) are compelled to fall in line). They might stray from those principles from time to him, but invariably retrace the hallowed guidelines of Cruyff and Michels. Overmars constructed a squad for Ajax style of football, young players who were trained for Ajax style of football, at Jong Ajax or elsewhere, stepped up during ten Hag's tenure (de Ligt, de Jong et cetera), Bosz had previously set the stage for Ajax style of football and even reached a Europa League final...
Ajax return to the Cruyff ideals as Peter Bosz leads new generation
In celebrating what ten Hag did with Ajax (especially during the dreamlike Champions League run), and drooling at the prospect of that being duplicated (have to admit, I was guilty of this...like countless other United supporters!
) maybe we failed to consider and surgically examine his actual expertise at replicating those principles and that brand of football when he was taken out of that environment (i.e., without comparable institutional oversight or directive or support to play Ajax style of football, without Overmars to procure the ingredients for him, without the backdrop of Bosz, and with stars like Cristiano, Rashford, Bruno — who are not optimized fits for that style of football).Perhaps it's like signing a player who excelled in a specific “system” (with the presumption that they will produce similar results elsewhere), and finding out that they cannot actually produce similar results when taken out of that specific system, and might even underperform to near-catastrophic levels, when placed in a different ecosytem (we have witnessed this with a handful of former Brighton players and staff in recent years, when they are taken out of an environment that was meticulously developed and curated by Tony Bloom (aided by analysts and statisticians) himself).
What if, Erik has tried to wed: 1. His personal preferences (every manager has 'em, to varying degrees) with 2. Ajax style of football, in a non-Ajax environment and 3. His, possibly erroneous, interpretation of United style of football (for example, wanting to be the best transition team in the world without the appropriate level of structural solidity in midfield and defense, or industry/aggresiveness/decisiveness in general) — and created something that's neither here nor there, a jumbled mess that even he can't get to the bottom of (let alone sort out)?
This is what I would point to to anyone saying give him time, time for what exactly, he has already declared we will never play football like ajax despite giving him complete freedom in the transfer market and basically just wants us to play transition footbal
Who here would genuinely have welcomed him with open arms before signing if he had made those same comments, nobody would have wanted ole 2.0, we may as well have signed conte or simeone or even mourinho again if all we are going to do is play transition football, at least they were proven winners
Who here would genuinely have welcomed him with open arms before signing if he had made those same comments, nobody would have wanted ole 2.0, we may as well have signed conte or simeone or even mourinho again if all we are going to do is play transition football, at least they were proven winners
It's actually a very good quote and perfectly adequate for where we currently are where in the eyes of many a solitary League Cup win has elevated ETH to a status of a legend.
It wasn't a good quote, considering the surrounding context. I believe it was made ahead of the Milan and Leicester matches in the EL and the FA Cup respectively. People were angry back then because they saw it for what it was. An attempt to take some pressure off himself and the players by downplaying expectations amidst a hectic schedule. In some ways, it fully encapsulated the mental fragility of this team in the post-SAF era. Imagine if Klopp had made the same quote when Liverpool were pushing for the quadruple.
That's the thing, though — to play Captain Hindsight (while making certain assumptions that might not be grounded in reality for all we know), maybe he does not know how to successfully duplicate Ajax's system? Without discrediting what he accomplished there (one might argue that he was their greatest, or at least one of the greatest, Head Coaches since Louis van Gaal in the 1990s, and is a modern icon of the club — no one can or should deny him those decorations), maybe successfully replicating Ajax's system, seemigly all on his own, is simply a step too far for him?
Clubs like Ajax and Barcelona are a bit unique in the sense that have long-standing footballing principles (and dogmas), and a good idea of how they want to operate and play (which trickles down on an institutional level, and folk (particularly outsiders who are brought in) are compelled to fall in line). They might stray from those principles from time to him, but invariably retrace the hallowed guidelines of Cruyff and Michels. Overmars constructed a squad for Ajax style of football, young players who were trained for Ajax style of football, at Jong Ajax or elsewhere, stepped up during ten Hag's tenure (de Ligt, de Jong et cetera), Bosz had previously set the stage for Ajax style of football and even reached a Europa League final...
Ajax return to the Cruyff ideals as Peter Bosz leads new generation
In celebrating what ten Hag did with Ajax (especially during the dreamlike Champions League run), and drooling at the prospect of that being duplicated (have to admit, I was guilty of this...like countless other United supporters!
Perhaps it's like signing a player who excelled in a specific “system” (with the presumption that they will produce similar results elsewhere), and finding out that they cannot actually produce similar results when taken out of that specific system, and might even underperform to near-catastrophic levels, when placed in a different ecosytem (we have witnessed this with a handful of former Brighton players and staff in recent years, when they are taken out of an environment that was meticulously developed and curated by Tony Bloom (aided by analysts and statisticians) himself).
What if, Erik has tried to wed: 1. His personal preferences (every manager has 'em, to varying degrees) with 2. Ajax style of football, in a non-Ajax environment and 3. His, possibly erroneous, interpretation of United style of football (for example, wanting to be the best transition team in the world without the appropriate level of structural solidity in midfield and defense, or industry/aggresiveness/decisiveness in general) — and created something that's neither here nor there, a jumbled mess that even he can't get to the bottom of (let alone sort out)?
This is a very good analysis of what might be the underlying problem. I think Ten Hag came to United with a lot of confidence and maybe even under-estimated the task at hand? Or over-estimated his own ability to do something that took a team effort at Ajax to implement, as you pointed out.
I think it's the latter sadly, I believe he demanded full control of a lot of things including transfers and thought that his success at Ajax would be duplicated here because of our stronger spending power and ability to attract better players.
It's worth noting in another interview he did clarify we will try to play more like Ajax once 'everyone was onboard' which is quite key for this OP.
Pretty big heel turn from "never" then.
Only thing I can think of is his English isn't amazing so "never" in Dutch might have multiple translations i.e. no way. Would need some of the Dutch posters on here to verify though. Or, like in Spanish, there might be multiple ways of saying it with differing levels of certainty i.e. jamas & nunca in Spanish.
That, or, the more likely scenario, is probably he then wanted to change the message in the next interview he gave after seeing a bit of backlash.
Agree with this whole post, really and I think I've alluded to something similar to this -- especially the bold. In the same way there are system players, I think you can argue there are such things as system managers.That's the thing, though — to play Captain Hindsight (while making certain assumptions that might not be grounded in reality for all we know), maybe he does not know how to successfully duplicate Ajax's system? Without discrediting what he accomplished there (one might argue that he was their greatest, or at least one of the greatest, Head Coaches since Louis van Gaal in the 1990s, and is a modern icon of the club — no one can or should deny him those decorations), maybe successfully replicating Ajax's system, seemigly all on his own, is simply a step too far for him?
Clubs like Ajax and Barcelona are a bit unique in the sense that have long-standing footballing principles (and dogmas), and a good idea of how they want to operate and play (which trickles down on an institutional level, and folk (particularly outsiders who are brought in) are compelled to fall in line). They might stray from those principles from time to him, but invariably retrace the hallowed guidelines of Cruyff and Michels. Overmars constructed a squad for Ajax style of football, young players who were trained for Ajax style of football, at Jong Ajax or elsewhere, stepped up during ten Hag's tenure (de Ligt, de Jong et cetera), Bosz had previously set the stage for Ajax style of football and even reached a Europa League final...
Ajax return to the Cruyff ideals as Peter Bosz leads new generation
In celebrating what ten Hag did with Ajax (especially during the dreamlike Champions League run), and drooling at the prospect of that being duplicated (have to admit, I was guilty of this...like countless other United supporters!
Perhaps it's like signing a player who excelled in a specific “system” (with the presumption that they will produce similar results elsewhere), and finding out that they cannot actually produce similar results when taken out of that specific system, and might even underperform to near-catastrophic levels, when placed in a different ecosytem (we have witnessed this with a handful of former Brighton players and staff in recent years, when they are taken out of an environment that was meticulously developed and curated by Tony Bloom (aided by analysts and statisticians) himself).
What if, Erik has tried to wed: 1. His personal preferences (every manager has 'em, to varying degrees) with 2. Ajax style of football, in a non-Ajax environment and 3. His, possibly erroneous, interpretation of United style of football (for example, wanting to be the best transition team in the world without the appropriate level of structural solidity in midfield and defense, or industry/aggresiveness/decisiveness in general) — and created something that's neither here nor there, a jumbled mess that even he can't get to the bottom of (let alone sort out)?
Its this one
I agree. What Ole says there is kind of relevant to our situation this season. We literally look worse than under any manager under Fergie and it's not even close. But a lot of people seem to excuse it because he won the Capital one cup last season with a relatively easy run of fixtures. Context matters.
That is a very good post. Fair play. A new perspectiveThat's the thing, though — to play Captain Hindsight (while making certain assumptions that might not be grounded in reality for all we know), maybe he does not know how to successfully duplicate Ajax's system? Without discrediting what he accomplished there (one might argue that he was their greatest, or at least one of the greatest, Head Coaches since Louis van Gaal in the 1990s, and is a modern icon of the club — no one can or should deny him those decorations), maybe successfully replicating Ajax's system, seemigly all on his own, is simply a step too far for him?
Clubs like Ajax and Barcelona are a bit unique in the sense that have long-standing footballing principles (and dogmas), and a good idea of how they want to operate and play (which trickles down on an institutional level, and folk (particularly outsiders who are brought in) are compelled to fall in line). They might stray from those principles from time to him, but invariably retrace the hallowed guidelines of Cruyff and Michels. Overmars constructed a squad for Ajax style of football, young players who were trained for Ajax style of football, at Jong Ajax or elsewhere, stepped up during ten Hag's tenure (de Ligt, de Jong et cetera), Bosz had previously set the stage for Ajax style of football and even reached a Europa League final...
Ajax return to the Cruyff ideals as Peter Bosz leads new generation
In celebrating what ten Hag did with Ajax (especially during the dreamlike Champions League run), and drooling at the prospect of that being duplicated (have to admit, I was guilty of this...like countless other United supporters!
Perhaps it's like signing a player who excelled in a specific “system” (with the presumption that they will produce similar results elsewhere), and finding out that they cannot actually produce similar results when taken out of that specific system, and might even underperform to near-catastrophic levels, when placed in a different ecosytem (we have witnessed this with a handful of former Brighton players and staff in recent years, when they are taken out of an environment that was meticulously developed and curated by Tony Bloom (aided by analysts and statisticians) himself).
What if, Erik has tried to wed: 1. His personal preferences (every manager has 'em, to varying degrees) with 2. Ajax style of football, in a non-Ajax environment and 3. His, possibly erroneous, interpretation of United style of football (for example, wanting to be the best transition team in the world without the appropriate level of structural solidity in midfield and defense, or industry/aggresiveness/decisiveness in general) — and created something that's neither here nor there, a jumbled mess that even he can't get to the bottom of (let alone sort out)?
Hmm, that's a fascinating alternative viewpoint, and one I hadn't really considered. As far as I recall, much of that brilliant Ajax team was broken up after their CL run, so I guess we could evaluate EtH's performance while rebuilding, or did the style of Ajax change when the likes of de Jong, de Ligt and Ziyech were sold? Or maybe Overmars and Co managed to replace those stars with a certain profile, and EtH had limited involvement?That's the thing, though — to play Captain Hindsight (while making certain assumptions that might not be grounded in reality for all we know), maybe he does not know how to successfully duplicate Ajax's system? Without discrediting what he accomplished there (one might argue that he was their greatest, or at least one of the greatest, Head Coaches since Louis van Gaal in the 1990s, and is a modern icon of the club — no one can or should deny him those decorations), maybe successfully replicating Ajax's system, seemigly all on his own, is simply a step too far for him?
Clubs like Ajax and Barcelona are a bit unique in the sense that have long-standing footballing principles (and dogmas), and a good idea of how they want to operate and play (which trickles down on an institutional level, and folk (particularly outsiders who are brought in) are compelled to fall in line). They might stray from those principles from time to him, but invariably retrace the hallowed guidelines of Cruyff and Michels. Overmars constructed a squad for Ajax style of football, young players who were trained for Ajax style of football, at Jong Ajax or elsewhere, stepped up during ten Hag's tenure (de Ligt, de Jong et cetera), Bosz had previously set the stage for Ajax style of football and even reached a Europa League final...
Ajax return to the Cruyff ideals as Peter Bosz leads new generation
In celebrating what ten Hag did with Ajax (especially during the dreamlike Champions League run), and drooling at the prospect of that being duplicated (have to admit, I was guilty of this...like countless other United supporters!
Perhaps it's like signing a player who excelled in a specific “system” (with the presumption that they will produce similar results elsewhere), and finding out that they cannot actually produce similar results when taken out of that specific system, and might even underperform to near-catastrophic levels, when placed in a different ecosytem (we have witnessed this with a handful of former Brighton players and staff in recent years, when they are taken out of an environment that was meticulously developed and curated by Tony Bloom (aided by analysts and statisticians) himself).
What if, Erik has tried to wed: 1. His personal preferences (every manager has 'em, to varying degrees) with 2. Ajax style of football, in a non-Ajax environment and 3. His, possibly erroneous, interpretation of United style of football (for example, wanting to be the best transition team in the world without the appropriate level of structural solidity in midfield and defense, or industry/aggresiveness/decisiveness in general) — and created something that's neither here nor there, a jumbled mess that even he can't get to the bottom of (let alone sort out)?
A more salient point I took from your hypothesis though, is do we as fans overweight the importance of the manager in the footballing structure? I think perhaps we do, but not when you have a true great like SAF, Pep, Jose, Ancelotti etc.
Why would a club hire a visionary and not cater to the whims of that brilliance? But on the flip side, can an excellent footballing hierarchy and deep rooted culture allow for a manager that is not "great", to have success?
Chelsea are sort of an example I guess. I don't think Tuchel is special in any sense, or vastly superior to EtH. Outside of Chelsea, his success has come from managing the biggest fish in the pond, and even then he was fairly underwhelming.
Yet he manages to win the CL with Chelsea after taking over mid-season. That's something I cannot fathom happening at United, but how did it happen there?
I don't think that does Tuchel justice. The biggest fish was only the case for PSG and now Bayern, but at Dortmund he went head to head with Guardiola's Bayern and replicated Klopp's title winning league performances there.
Before that he took over relegation candidate Mainz and lead them into Europe. He might not be the very best manager around, but he definitely worked up his way and deserved to manage the biggest clubs. EtH did the same, but at this point of their career it is safe to say that Tuchel impressed more than EtH while still being younger. Maybe not vastly superior, but still ahead.
Hojlund changed agents to make the move happen.
Ajax' style doesn't really change. Of course every manager has his input and makes smaller changes. But for the most part it's always the same thing. EtH tried to do something new every season just to fail and revert back to normal. Ajax is just setup a certain way.
Also it was indeed Overmars who did the transfers with EtH having some input, mostly getting some players he wanted on top of the Overmars transfers. Those weren't really good and the same as he's done here. Getting players in he worked with or knew from the Eredivise.
I’m always a ‘stick with your manager, give them time’ person, but there is a massive difference between knee-jerking due to a poor set of results, and seeing a set of results and poor play, regression, drift, that illustrates something deeper is wrong. I think United are there right now.
Ten-Haag was hired to get United playing a certain way. That’s something he’s clearly able to do, having done it before. But he’s pretty much now said he’s trying to do something completely different that he hasn’t done before. And he doesn’t seem to be very good at it.
To put it another way, if you ordered a really nice pair of leather boots but they gave you blisters at first, I’d say be patient. Stick with it, wear them in, they’re high quality and comfortable and will last you for years. Just get over the hump. But if you ordered that nice pair of leather shoes and got clown shoes instead, I’d say, you should probably return or bin them. Ten Haag has gone from comfy leather boots to clown shoes this season. If he’s not going to try to do what he’s good at and was hired for, you should try someone else in a similar mould.
Ten-Haag was hired to get United playing a certain way. That’s something he’s clearly able to do, having done it before. But he’s pretty much now said he’s trying to do something completely different that he hasn’t done before. And he doesn’t seem to be very good at it.
To put it another way, if you ordered a really nice pair of leather boots but they gave you blisters at first, I’d say be patient. Stick with it, wear them in, they’re high quality and comfortable and will last you for years. Just get over the hump. But if you ordered that nice pair of leather shoes and got clown shoes instead, I’d say, you should probably return or bin them. Ten Haag has gone from comfy leather boots to clown shoes this season. If he’s not going to try to do what he’s good at and was hired for, you should try someone else in a similar mould.
Good post. I think your point about Ajax’ and Barcelona’s identity/football structure is right on.That's the thing, though — to play Captain Hindsight (while making certain assumptions that might not be grounded in reality for all we know), maybe he does not know how to successfully duplicate Ajax's system? Without discrediting what he accomplished there (one might argue that he was their greatest, or at least one of the greatest, Head Coaches since Louis van Gaal in the 1990s, and is a modern icon of the club — no one can or should deny him those decorations), maybe successfully replicating Ajax's system, seemigly all on his own, is simply a step too far for him?
Clubs like Ajax and Barcelona are a bit unique in the sense that have long-standing footballing principles (and dogmas), and a good idea of how they want to operate and play (which trickles down on an institutional level, and folk (particularly outsiders who are brought in) are compelled to fall in line). They might stray from those principles from time to him, but invariably retrace the hallowed guidelines of Cruyff and Michels. Overmars constructed a squad for Ajax style of football, young players who were trained for Ajax style of football, at Jong Ajax or elsewhere, stepped up during ten Hag's tenure (de Ligt, de Jong et cetera), Bosz had previously set the stage for Ajax style of football and even reached a Europa League final...
Ajax return to the Cruyff ideals as Peter Bosz leads new generation
In celebrating what ten Hag did with Ajax (especially during the dreamlike Champions League run), and drooling at the prospect of that being duplicated (have to admit, I was guilty of this...like countless other United supporters!
Perhaps it's like signing a player who excelled in a specific “system” (with the presumption that they will produce similar results elsewhere), and finding out that they cannot actually produce similar results when taken out of that specific system, and might even underperform to near-catastrophic levels, when placed in a different ecosytem (we have witnessed this with a handful of former Brighton players and staff in recent years, when they are taken out of an environment that was meticulously developed and curated by Tony Bloom (aided by analysts and statisticians) himself).
What if, Erik has tried to wed: 1. His personal preferences (every manager has 'em, to varying degrees) with 2. Ajax style of football, in a non-Ajax environment and 3. His, possibly erroneous, interpretation of United style of football (for example, wanting to be the best transition team in the world without the appropriate level of structural solidity in midfield and defense, or industry/aggresiveness/decisiveness in general) — and created something that's neither here nor there, a jumbled mess that even he can't get to the bottom of (let alone sort out)?
However, it is also true that Ten Hag rebuilt Ajax after they lost Frenkie de Jong and De Ligt. The most important pieces of that rebuild came from outside Ajax, namely Martinez and Alvarez.
Hag had a perfect CL group phase with this team: 6 wins out of 6 games.
Taking over MU was a huge challenge and Ten Hag knew that. There was a reset after two games last season, after he realized the players were slow to adapt and it would get him fired.
This season is an attempt to play more pro-active modern football, with the addition of key players (Onana, Mount) who are supposed to help that happen.
I think Onana will be fine, but the defense in front of him had trouble adapting. In fact the whole team is struggling with it.
Basically, the challenge is probably even greater then Hag thought.
His Ole moment was going out of his way to dismiss a Cinderella run type title challenge last season. Dont get me wrong he was 100% correct but know it, dont say it. No one was going to judge him anyway. Nothing to gain beyond begging for a lower bar. After they said that their results seemed to fall off a cliff. Our players sure seem to love any excuse they are afforded.
It was a horrible quote which made me fully Ten Hag out. Awful.
Ok.
People exaggerate the importance of random quotes. Most managers lie to the media.
That's true, but still some quotes give a nice insight in how a manager thinks.
Firmly in the ETH in camp. BUT these comments are totally concerning. We were looking a much better side until we won the league cup then something seemed to change.
They can do but I can never be sure what's true and what's just bs. Pep tends to say the opposite of what he means.
Seeing as Ajax are 5th in a farmers league and 31 points from the leaders I'd say he pretty much already has us playing like Ajax
You can argue the same about Newcastle & Brighton. It's a mix of off-field issues, injuries and frankly lack of squad depth.
There was an interview by Tony Pulis recently on which he revealed an advice given to him by Sir.Alex:
So:
1) do we try to change the system we played post-SAF till Ole, while taking up agonizing defeats in the process
2) play the same system and squeeze out results
So far, I think it's a mix of both. Once we have a decent squad depth and key players not getting injured every other match, we should be able to see a drastic improvement next year. Our squad and culture end-Rangnick to now is a decent change.
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What is wrong with playing football like Man utd, we never had a definite style under SAF, did we?
This makes sense to me, it’s kind of where I’m at with it, we still have a mix of four managers players. We need to get more out and more in. Then ETH must improve our style of play. We’ve seen it in the first four months, it’s frustrating but I’ve faith that he is the right man for the job. I remember SAF looking like he’d got it right in 87/88, the following two seasons were an abomination. But ETH needs to keep himself in the job.