Was Pele Overrated?

[antohan]

I don't believe Pele was overrated. Many have said he didn't play in Europe, but he didn't have to. At the time the Brazilian league was a top league and Santos seem to be consistently touring Europe and playing all the top teams. Pele stood out in many of those games, over a ten year period in over 100 games Pele averaged about a goal and a half a game. Santos was a hell of a team in the early to mid 60's , in the Intercontinental Cup between the the European Cup winners and the South American Champions, Santos destroyed Benfica over two legs in 1962 and needed a third game to edge out AC Milan in 1963.

Taken from the statistical section of the 1977 book "My Life And The Beautiful Game" by Pelé.


AUSTRIA
07-02-1959 0-3 – Austria Wien
1 defeat
0-3 goals
0 goals scored by Pelé

BELGIUM
05-26-1959 1-0 - Royal Standard
05-27-1959 4-2 2 RSC Anderlecht
05-30-1959 1-2 – Gentoise
05-19-1960 4-3 1 Royal Standard
05-28-1960 6-0 2 RSC Anderlecht
05-31-1960 10-1 4 Royal Beerschot
06-11-1960 5-2 2 Gentoise
06-12-1960 3-1 – Selection Antwerp
06-04-1961 4-4 – Selection Antwerp
03-01-1972 0-0 – RSC Anderlecht
03-06-1973 1-0 – Royal Standard
8 wins, 2 draws, 1 defeat
39-15 goals
11 goals scored by Pelé
73 % won
28 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 4-1, 1 goal by Pelé

CSSR
02-15-1959 3-4 – UDA Duklas
01-16-1965 6-4 3 Selection CSSR
01-13-1968 4-1 – Selection CSSR
2 wins, 1 defeat
13-9 goals
3 goals scored by Pelé
67 % won
23 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 4-3, 1 goal by Pelé

ENGLAND
10-22-1961 4-2 1 Sheffield Wednesday
09-22-1969 3-2 2 Stoke City
09-21-1970 2-2 2 West Ham United
02-02-1971 1-0 – FC Chelsea
02-21-1972 1-2 – Aston Villa
02-23-1972 2-0 - Sheffield Wednesday
06-04-1972 4-2 3 Newcastle United
06-13-1972 2-2 1 Coventry City
5 wins, 2 draws, 1 defeat
19-12 goals
9 goals scored by Pelé
63 % won
47 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 2-1, 1 goal by Pelé

FRANCE
06-07-1960 5-3 1 Stade Reims
06-09-1960 4-1 1 Racing Paris
06-17-1960 3-1 1 Stade Reims
06-23-1960 3-0 2 FC Toulouse
06-07-1961 6-1 1 Racing Paris
06-09-1961 6-2 2 Olympique Lyonnais
06-13-1961 5-4 1 Racing Paris
10-17-1962 5-2 2 Racing Paris
03-31-1971 0-0 – Selection Marseille / St. Etienne
8 wins, 1 draw
37-14 goals
11 goals scored by Pelé
89 % won
30 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 4-2, 1 goal by Pelé

GREECE
06-28-1961 3-0 1 AEK Athens
06-30-1961 3-2 2 Panathinaikos Athens
07-04-1961 1-2 – Olimpiakos Piraeus
08-24-1966 1-0 – AEK Athens
3 wins, 1 defeat
8-4 goals
3 goals scored by Pelé
75 % won
38 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 2-1, 1 goal by Pelé

HUNGARY
02-10-1967 2-2 1 Vasas Budapest
01-23-1968 4-0 1 Vasas Budapest
1 wins, 1 draw
6-2 goals
2 goals scored by Pelé
50 % won
33 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 3-1, 1 goal by Pelé

IRELAND
02-26-1972 3-2 – Bohemians Drumcondra
1 win
3-2 goals
0 goals scored by Pelé

ITALY
06-05-1959 2-3 2 Inter Milano
06-26-1959 7-1 4 Inter Milano
06-30-1959 4-2 - Genoa
06-01-1960 3-2 1 AS Roma
06-03-1960 0-3 – Fiorentina
06-18-1960 2-0 1 Juventus Torino
06-21-1961 5-0 2 AS Roma
06-24-1961 4-1 1 Inter Milano
06-15-1963 4-3 2 AS Roma
06-19-1963 0-2 – Inter Milano
06-22-1963 0-4 – AC Milan
06-26-1963 3-5 1 Juventus Torino
10-16-1963 2-4 2 AC Milan
11-14-1963 4-2 – AC Milan
09-05-1966 4-1 1 Inter Milano
06-17-1967 2-1 1 Mantua
06-20-1967 1-0 – Venice
06-24-1967 5-1 3 US Lecce
06-27-1967 1-1 – Fiorentina
06-29-1967 3-1 1 AS Roma
08-26-1967 0-1 – Inter Milano
06-09-1968 2-1 – Cagliari
06-12-1968 2-0 1 Alexandria
06-21-1968 4-2 1 SSC Napoli
06-26-1968 6-2 2 SSC Napoli
06-28-1968 5-2 2 SSC Napoli
06-24-1969 1-0 – Inter Milano
09-24-1969 7-1 2 Combination Geneva / Genoa
06-23-1971 2-1 1 Bologna
06-27-1971 1-1 - Bologna
06-30-1971 1-0 1 Bologna
03-03-1972 2-0 – AS Roma
03-05-1972 3-2 2 SSC Napoli
04-29-1972 1-0 – SSC Napoli
05-01-1972 3-2 2 Cagliari
06-25-1972 7-1 2 Catanzaro
05-25-1973 3-0 1 Lazio Roma
05-28-1973 4-2 2 Lazio Roma
29 wins, 2 draws, 7 defeats
110-55 goals
41 goals scored by Pelé
76 % won
37 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 3-1, 1 goal by Pelé

NETHERLANDS
06-03-1959 3-0 1 Feijenoord Rotterdam
06-15-1959 5-0 3 Selection Enschede
2 wins
8-0 goals
4 goals scored by Pelé
100 % won
50 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 4-0, 2 goals by Pelé

PORTUGAL
06-19-1957 6-1 3 Belenses
07-23-1957 3-2 1 Benfica Lisboa
06-19-1959 2-2 1 Sporting Lisboa
06-15-1961 6-3 2 Benfica Lisboa
09-19-1962 3-2 2 Benfica Lisboa
10-11-1962 5-2 3 Benfica Lisboa
08-21-1966 4-0 1 Benfica Lisboa
08-18-1968 4-2 – Benfica Lisboa
09-01-1968 3-3 – Benfica Lisboa
7 wins, 2 draws
36-17 goals
13 goals scored by Pelé
78 % won
36 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 4-2, 1 goal by Pelé

SPAIN
06-17-1959 3-5 1 Real Madrid
06-24-1959 4-4 1 FC Valencia
06-28-1959 5-1 2 FC Barcelona
07-05-1959 2-2 1 Betis Sevilla
06-19-1960 2-2 – Espanol Barcelona
06-25-1960 1-0 – FC Valencia
07-02-1960 3-4 1 FC Barcelona
06-12-1963 0-2 – FC Barcelona
08-28-1967 1-4 – Deportivo Espanol Malaga
08-29-1967 2-1 – Malaga
09-17-1969 3-1 – Atletico Madrid
08-31-1974 0-2 – Espanol Barcelona
09-01-1974 1-4 1 FC Elche
09-03-1974 3-2 2 Real Zaragoza
5 wins, 3 draws, 6 defeats
30-34 goals
9 goals scored by Pelé
36 % won
30 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 2-2, 1 goal by Pelé

SWEDEN
01-12-1957 1-0 – AIK Stockholm
1 win
1-0 goals
0 goals scored by Pelé

SWITZERLAND
06-09-1959 4-1 1 Servette Geneva
06-01-1961 8-2 3 FC Basel
06-15-1968 4-5 1 FC Zürich
2 wins, 1 defeat
16-8 goals
5 goals scored by Pelé
66 % won
31 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 5-3, 2 goals by Pelé

WEST GERMANY
06-06-1959 6-4 1 Fortuna Düsseldorf
06-07-1959 3-3 – 1. FC Nuremberg
06-11-1959 6-0 1 Selection Hamburg
06-13-1959 7-1 3 Selection Lower-Saxony
05-27-1960 9-1 3 TSV 1860 Munich
06-01-1960 4-2 2 Eintracht
06-15-1960 4-2 1 Selection Berlin
06-03-1961 6-3 2 VfL Wolfsburg
06-26-1961 8-6 3 Karlsruher SC
10-20-1961 3-3 2 FC Hamburg
05-29-1963 3-2 1 Selection Lower-Saxony
06-02-1963 2-1 1 FC Schalke 04
06-05-1963 5-2 4 Eintracht
06-08-1963 3-1 1 VfB Stuttgart
06-13-1967 5-4 2 TSV 1860 Munich
06-17-1967 3-0 1 Selection Saarland
07-30-1971 3-1 – Hannover 96
02-27-1973 0-3 – Combination Bavaria
06-10-1973 5-0 1 Arminia Bielefeld
16 wins, 2 draws, 1 defeat
85-39 goals
29 goals scored by Pelé
84 % won
34 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 4-2, 2 goals by Pelé

YUGOSLAVIA
06-22-1957 1-1 1 Dinamo Zagreb
09-10-1969 3-3 1 Red Star Belgrade
09-12-1969 1-1 – Dinamo Zagreb
09-15-1969 4-4 1 Danick Kragulevac
09-19-1969 1-1 1 Zeljesnicar
5 draws
10-10 goals
4 goals scored by Pelé
0 % won
40 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 2-2, 1 goal by Pelé

You can see that Pele scored a high percentage of Santos' goals and how successful Santos was against European competition.

Great stats but what you failed to do there, which is far more impressive, is order it by date.

Those were gruelling tours Santos engaged in to raise funds and which ultimately enabled them to keep Pelé (although he didn't earn that much comparatively, even had a shoe store jointly owned with a couple of other players).

I tired to transfer to excel but the formatting went tits up, so just did 1959 for reference, and particularly for those questioning whether he would be fit enough to deal with the modern game:

19 games in 39 days
11 wins, 4 draws, 4 defeats
69 goals for, 36 against, 24 goals scored by Pelé (1.26gpg)

05-26-1959 1-0 - Royal Standard
05-27-1959 4-2 2 RSC Anderlecht
05-30-1959 1-2 – Gentoise
06-03-1959 3-0 1 Feijenoord Rotterdam
06-05-1959 2-3 2 Inter Milano
06-06-1959 6-4 1 Fortuna Düsseldorf
06-07-1959 3-3 – 1. FC Nuremberg
06-09-1959 4-1 1 Servette Geneva
06-11-1959 6-0 1 Selection Hamburg
06-13-1959 7-1 3 Selection Lower-Saxony
06-15-1959 5-0 3 Selection Enschede
06-17-1959 3-5 1 Real Madrid
06-19-1959 2-2 1 Sporting Lisboa
06-24-1959 4-4 1 FC Valencia
06-26-1959 7-1 4 Inter Milano
06-28-1959 5-1 2 FC Barcelona
06-30-1959 4-2 - Genoa
07-02-1959 0-3 – Austria Wien
07-05-1959 2-2 1 Betis Sevilla

Look again at the fixtures, they regularly had to travel back and forth, and probably spent much of their resting time on a plane or train (e.g. 24/6 Valencia, 26/6 Milan, 28/6 Barcelona, 30/6 Genoa, 2/7 Austria Wien and 5/7 Betis back in Sevilla!).

Another remarkable thing is that he actually scores more as the tour progresses and he gets the hang of how these European teams try to go about stopping him

The guy was a fecking machine.

 

[Raoul]

It may sound absurd but hear me out. Let's look at it this way, before Neymar moved to Barcelona from Santos he was being heralded as being almost on the same level as Messi simply because he was tearing it up in the Brazilian league. Once he moved to the Nou Camp, although still being a very good player, he was not performing anywhere near the level he was while being at Santos.

The reason I bring that up is because you can see the difference European football presents. It's a lot more tougher to be a great player in Europe that it is in any other continent. Now as many of you probably know, Pele never played in Europe. He continued to stay where he felt most comfortable and that was Santos. Now if Neymar had done the same thing and carried on tearing it up would he be considered as one of the greats as Pele is?

Obviously the biggest factor in all this is the 3 World Cups that was won by Brazil which starred Pele. Now for me personally when it comes to the greatest players in the history of football, there's only 2 that sit at the very top of the pile and that would be Messi and Maradona, in no particular order. The reason being is because their natural talents was/is like nothing else I've ever seen, but also they were/are players who could win you a game simply by themselves due to a moment of magic. Maradona showed this when he won the World Cup with Argentina in 1986 and Messi has shown the same thing countless times while at Barca. Of course Pele winning 3 World Cups definitely makes him a great player, but you also have to understand that the Brazil team within that period was simply immense. Pele aside, they had some of the best players in the world at the time. Point I'm trying to make is that it would have been a lot easier to win a World Cup playing for that Brazil team at that time than any other Brazil team in history.

So to conclude I'm not disregarding Pele's legacy and everything he achieved. No doubt he is up there with the greats. But when it comes to the greatest players in history, I personally don't believe he ever had the same unique talents that Messi and Maradona possess/possessed.

Its problematic to conflate Neymar with Pele. Different players in different eras. Pele was obviously the biggest player of his era, as was Maradona, and as is Messi. Because they played in different eras, its hard to compare them.

 

[fontaine]

At the time when Intercontinental cup was really important, Pele toyed with Eusebio's Benfica. Remember those games were extremely important for the Portuguese as well.

I believe Santos beat Benfica in Lisbon 5-2. That same team beat Di Stefano's Madrid in European Cup. Santos also beat Milan a year later.

Santos stopped participating in the Libertadores for these fund raising tours they had, god knows how many more they could have won.

 

[Green_Red]

@Zeki Zico

Comparing a young footballer against a player who has developed and is somewhere near his peak is redonkulous.

Neymar at 23 is every bit as good as Messi was at 23.

And questioning whether Pele was over rated is outrageous given the amount of people who have seen Pele play and modern day footballers play.

In reality, there isn't that much difference between football in the 60's and 70's to football now. Look at any footage of Bobby Charlton, George Best, Johan Cryuff, Maradona, Pele they easily compare to the footballers of today. The only real difference is the professionalism and the athleticism. Skill wise, there were Brazilians knocking out silky nutmegs long before Messi / Neymar were even a twitch in their fathers' ballsacks.

 

[Ji_Maria]

@Zeki Zico

In reality, there isn't that much difference between football in the 60's and 70's to football now. Look at any footage of Bobby Charlton, George Best, Johan Cryuff, Maradona, Pele they easily compare to the footballers of today. The only real difference is the professionalism and the athleticism. Skill wise, there were Brazilians knocking out silky nutmegs long before Messi / Neymar were even a twitch in their fathers' ballsacks.

This really. Rather than looking at raw, statistics, consider that Pele, Maradona, et al, were at the pinnacle of their professions when they were playing. What that means is, given the training standards, playing conditions, opposition, etc., they were the top of the top. It's all relative see. When you look at Messi or Ronaldo today, likewise given the training standards and playing conditions, they are at the top. Pele and Maradona are players who know only how to be the best, and be better than everyone they were playing against. That same natural ability (better than their peers) and attributes which made them the best in their respective times, would likewise translate to the modern era if they were born 30 years ago.

It's basically like this. Audrey Hepburn or Megan Fox would be considered an exquite beauty no matter what era or country they were born in. Times and styles change, but that once in a generation class is permanent.

 

[Gio]

@Zeki Zico

Comparing a young footballer against a player who has developed and is somewhere near his peak is redonkulous.

Neymar at 23 is every bit as good as Messi was at 23.

And questioning whether Pele was over rated is outrageous given the amount of people who have seen Pele play and modern day footballers play.

In reality, there isn't that much difference between football in the 60's and 70's to football now. Look at any footage of Bobby Charlton, George Best, Johan Cryuff, Maradona, Pele they easily compare to the footballers of today. The only real difference is the professionalism and the athleticism. Skill wise, there were Brazilians knocking out silky nutmegs long before Messi / Neymar were even a twitch in their fathers' ballsacks.

Neymar now is nowhere near Messi in 2010.

 

[Revan]

@Zeki Zico

Comparing a young footballer against a player who has developed and is somewhere near his peak is redonkulous.

Neymar at 23 is every bit as good as Messi was at 23.

And questioning whether Pele was over rated is outrageous given the amount of people who have seen Pele play and modern day footballers play.

In reality, there isn't that much difference between football in the 60's and 70's to football now. Look at any footage of Bobby Charlton, George Best, Johan Cryuff, Maradona, Pele they easily compare to the footballers of today. The only real difference is the professionalism and the athleticism. Skill wise, there were Brazilians knocking out silky nutmegs long before Messi / Neymar were even a twitch in their fathers' ballsacks.

Not even close. Messi at 23 had been by far the best player in the world for a couple of season. Neymar hasn't yet played at that level.

THe point stands though. There could be no inference from Neymar to Pele

 

[RedDF]

Messi won the ballon d'or at 23!

 

[Revan]

Messi won the ballon d'or at 23!

He won it at 22. He was the best player in the world from the beginning of 2008-2009 season though (Ballon D'Or is given in January), so by the time he won it, he has been the best player in the world for 18 months or so. Ronaldo won it on January 2009 (for what he did on the previous season) but it was already clear that Messi had surpassed him.

 

[Raees]

It's basically like this. Audrey Hepburn or Megan Fox would be considered an exquite beauty no matter what era or country they were born in. Times and styles change, but that once in a generation class is permanent.

brilliant

 

[Nighteyes]

Messi has been best player in the world for about 7 years running now.