Was Jose right? The case(s) for and against the players

[Gordon Godot]

I can fully understand all of that. And I am not saying that he was not at fault or that in the end, he had to go.
But what I am saying is that most of that problem was down to sheer frustration.
The senior management were not listening.
He was not getting any backing from the club on this.
And a group of players were actively working against him.

He is an emotional guy. And he says what he thinks.
That is not an excuse. But it is important to have a sense of balance in this. It was not all down to him as we have subsequently seen.

I dont think any assessment of Jose needs 'balance.' He is a poor man manager and should never have got the job. He was on a downward spiral when he joined us and it has only accelerated. He motivates through fear and intimidation, the exact opposite of Fergie, he also focuses on short term success and has no interest in building for the future. His signigns were generally poor and I am not surpised the board declined to back him, which is not to back the board as they are beyond useless. Dressign room revolts against Joses bad management are not new and reflect poorly on the manager and those that appointed him. Jose always picks on a player, at Utd it was Shaw, at Spurs was Deli. He is toxic.

As ever, these tedious debates about whether its the manager or players. I can tell you 100% its the board and Woodward, who made appalling decisions, we had not football structure in place as Fergie himself had allowed it to rot away in the later years of his time, Woodward allowed each of his poor managering choices to do what they wanted with signings. Squad management was terrible. We should never have signed Pogba back whch seemed more about Jose following agent Raiola than anything else. That is why we end up in this mess.

 

[Lentwood]

I’m not going to look it all up but going off memory I believe José brought in the following players:

Sanchez - on a £26m per annum, 5YR contract!
Pogba - £90m
Mikhtarian - £25m
Lindelof - £30m

And he desperately wanted to bring in Maguire.

What was the question again?

And....

Bailly £34m
Matic £40m
Fred £50m
Zlatan (free but cost £25m in signing bonus and wages)
Dalot £15m
Lukaku £85m

Jose also sold Depay on the cheap, who would probably have been a regular in our current team

 

[Lentwood]

He obviously was right about the players but I never got past him living in a hotel during his time at the club. He was never committed and had no interest in fixing any of the problems.

But right about what? As I thought experiment, say you swapped Joel Matip with Harry Maguire, Jordan Henderson with Scott McTominay and Luke Shaw with Andy Robertson.

Liverpool would still be a really good team, and we'd still be crap.

Does that now mean that Matip, Henderson and Robertson have 'weak mentalities' and Maguire, McTominay and Shaw suddenly have 'winning mentalities'?

This 'weak mentality/strong mentality' sh**e is banded around so much, and it's so outcome-orientated/circumstantial it carries no weight in my mind. Sure, some of our players perhaps do have less-than-strong mentalities, but we're sh*t because some of our players are not that good plus our team has been thrown together with no thought to tactics or style, not because our players somehow can't be bothered or have 'weak mentalities'. It's just too easy to keep labelling that as the problem....we've been going through this for 10 years!

 

[Gordon Godot]

And....

Bailly £34m
Matic £40m
Fred £50m
Zlatan (free but cost £25m in signing bonus and wages)
Dalot £15m
Lukaku £85m

Jose also sold Depay on the cheap, who would probably have been a regular in our current team

Transfers from LVG to Jose to Ole have been absolute disasters. Which is what happens when you have no underlying football vision or philosophy, no football decision making process, and no coherent scouting. Jose also did not care about any of this, he wants short term success. He knows his approach only works for 2-3 years max, and we have seen it becomign even shorter. How we signed Bailly, a CB with no spatial or defensive awareness whatsoever, is a mystery. Although not as big as one as to why we renewed him.

 

[Lentwood]

Transfers from LVG to Jose to Ole have been absolute disasters. Which is what happens when you have no underlying football vision or philosophy, no football decision making process, and no coherent scouting. Jose also did not care about any of this, he wants short term success. He knows his approach only works for 2-3 years max, and we have seen it becomign even shorter. How we signed Bailly, a CB with no spatial or defensive awareness whatsoever, is a mystery. Although not as big as one as to why we renewed him.

I don't really blame the managers for transfer necessarily, we know it's far more of a committee decision nowadays and it's difficult to solely attribute good or bad signings to the manager. That being said, Jose's signings in particular do stink of being 'his' choice. Two lads from Portugal (Lindelof and Dalot), Zlatan, Lukaku and Matic, all of whom he knew well and Paul Pogba. You can certainly see his influence.

I mainly care about killing this myth he wasn't backed because we 'only' spent £50m net in his 3rd season.

 

[Buster15]

I dont think any assessment of Jose needs 'balance.' He is a poor man manager and should never have got the job. He was on a downward spiral when he joined us and it has only accelerated. He motivates through fear and intimidation, the exact opposite of Fergie, he also focuses on short term success and has no interest in building for the future. His signigns were generally poor and I am not surpised the board declined to back him, which is not to back the board as they are beyond useless. Dressign room revolts against Joses bad management are not new and reflect poorly on the manager and those that appointed him. Jose always picks on a player, at Utd it was Shaw, at Spurs was Deli. He is toxic.

As ever, these tedious debates about whether its the manager or players. I can tell you 100% its the board and Woodward, who made appalling decisions, we had not football structure in place as Fergie himself had allowed it to rot away in the later years of his time, Woodward allowed each of his poor managering choices to do what they wanted with signings. Squad management was terrible. We should never have signed Pogba back whch seemed more about Jose following agent Raiola than anything else. That is why we end up in this mess.

Wrong. And a very blinkered viewpoint.
In any discussion, it is definitely important to have a balanced view.
Just looked at things from a biased view leads to a closed mind.
And if you read what I had posted, you will have seen that did say that he had to go.

 

[el3mel]

And....

Bailly £34m
Matic £40m
Fred £50m
Zlatan (free but cost £25m in signing bonus and wages)
Dalot £15m
Lukaku £85m

Jose also sold Depay on the cheap, who would probably have been a regular in our current team

That means we're shit, rather than that Depay is good enough.

 

[el3mel]

I dont think any assessment of Jose needs 'balance.' He is a poor man manager and should never have got the job. He was on a downward spiral when he joined us and it has only accelerated. He motivates through fear and intimidation, the exact opposite of Fergie, he also focuses on short term success and has no interest in building for the future. His signigns were generally poor and I am not surpised the board declined to back him, which is not to back the board as they are beyond useless. Dressign room revolts against Joses bad management are not new and reflect poorly on the manager and those that appointed him. Jose always picks on a player, at Utd it was Shaw, at Spurs was Deli. He is toxic.

As ever, these tedious debates about whether its the manager or players. I can tell you 100% its the board and Woodward, who made appalling decisions, we had not football structure in place as Fergie himself had allowed it to rot away in the later years of his time, Woodward allowed each of his poor managering choices to do what they wanted with signings. Squad management was terrible. We should never have signed Pogba back whch seemed more about Jose following agent Raiola than anything else. That is why we end up in this mess.

He was right about Dele Alli as well. He kept on being shit for the next Spurs manager and ultimately got sold to Everton, where he's also still shit.

 

[Irwin99]

I find this whole argument confusing, and what is even more confusing is why we are still talking about Jose in March 2022?

Finally....on the subject of Luke Shaw....I'll say again for the 1000th time....Jose rated Luke Shaw, and was only hard on him because he believed Shaw had potential to be world-class. How do I know this? As I said earlier, I am/was a Jose 'fan boi', I have read basically every significant book on Jose and idolised him even when he was at Chelsea first-time around. You see how he has treated players historically who he doesn't rate...he doesn't criticise them or slam them in the press. On the contrary, he just quietly moves them out. Think about how he treated Depay, for example, compared to Luke Shaw or Joe Cole at Chelsea. Didn't criticise Depay, had nothing but nice things to say, but didn't waste a moments game-time on him and moved him on, no fuss. Jose picked Shaw virtually every week when fit, and his criticism was aimed at pushing him on to the next level.

I have said it before, but we criticise the wrong players on this forum. We get on at the likes of Luke Shaw because they are the constants in our failures the last 6/7 years....but if you actually stop, breathe and think about it for a second...what has Shaw ever done to bring this club into disrepute? When has he not tried, because I haven't seen it? I have in my mind which players are chancers, lazy, in it for themselves, not good enough....and they are bizarrely the players this forum seems to back!

I REALLY regret using Jose as a framing topic/point of reference for player attitudes because the intention wasn't to talk specifically about Jose and/or whether he was a bad manager or a has been etc. but whether his opinions on certain players were right and more specifically whether or not we have a rotten player culture here, which is why i included references to LVG, Ole, and Ralf. In hindsight I should have been a lot clearer so the fault is mine but Jesus, we have really weird issues with our relationships with past managers at this club. It seems almost impossible for some people to separate that Jose might not have been the man for the job (100% agree, especially at that time) and his opinions on certain players having bad attitudes (also agree, but I regret including Rashford as he had no issues back then as far as i am aware). It's like you don't have to 'pick a side'- judge the issue(s) separately.

And I disagree big time about Shaw. When he talks about knowing he'd "outlast" Jose (subtext-hope this guy gets fired), I was kind of bit taken aback by that comment. Also:

March 9: media reports (could be total nonsense, admittedly) that Shaw is happy to sign a new, better deal with the club.
March 26: Shaw (subtext) it's nice to be wanted with England, i'm happy here.

It's like, really? You've been god awful this season, you don't seem to be happy under yet another manager, who's only here for a few months anyway by the way, you've had well documented issues regarding your physical condition, you get paid more than much better full backs in the league, you've had two good/consistent years here in about eight years. I find it very hard to like some of these players. Is our club just that rotten that it turns people into unhappy workers who actually seem to dread playing for United, or are we just a magnet for every entitled idiot on super high wages with no accountability? Footballers aren't robots and it can be hard, really hard, if you hate your work environment, but which is to blame?

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

I had hoped Jose would be good short term, but long term he ruined us more than we hoped for. All signings failed after and before he left even if I personally liked many of them like Pogba, Bailly and mkhitaryan at the time.

The poor culture is Joses fault as well. Ole too weak to bring in a better mentality long term.

We need a strong, positive and dominant manager that can sort out the dressing room. Improve us tactically and help bring in the right players.

 

[gorky_utd]

Jose is the finished one tactically, but his assesment about current UTD players have been spot on.

 

[Lentwood]

It's like, really? You've been god awful this season, you don't seem to be happy under yet another manager, who's only here for a few months anyway by the way, you've had well documented issues regarding your physical condition, you get paid more than much better full backs in the league, you've had two good/consistent years here in about eight years. I find it very hard to like some of these players. Is our club just that rotten that it turns people into unhappy workers who actually seem to dread playing for United, or are we just a magnet for every entitled idiot on super high wages with no accountability? Footballers aren't robots and it can be hard, really hard, if you hate your work environment, but which is to blame?

But all of our players have underperformed this season. Some have had more flak than others, but generally speaking I can't think of one player who's performances have consistently met the standards required by a United player.

My point being, when one or two players underperform, clearly it's on them. When a squad underperforms for a few weeks, maybe it's on them. In our case, we've underperformed for a decade, and every single player who arrives here quickly falls of a cliff with respect their performance levels.

This is why I am expressing some sympathy with the players. They are really a victim of the chaotic approach to recruitment and the hiring/firing of managers.

 

[Glorio]

His assessment on those players was right. That's what the OP is asking about.

Not sure why folks are trying to deflect to things José didn't do well. I think he was a poor appointment, but that doesn't negate the validity of his assessment

 

[devilish]

Mourinho has clearly fossilized in terms of his methods and tactics. But he will always be able to drawn on the reference points of players he's managed in his career who were actually winners: players like Lampard, Terry, Drogba, Ronaldo, Zanetti, list goes on. So if he was still able to diagnose players who lack that winning mindset, it wouldn't be a surprise at all.

true however one need to be careful here. Each generation has a different way of expressing itself. For example SAF warned in his interviews time and time again that each new generation seem to be more fragile then the former one and therefore need to be man managed better. Mourinho is sounding more like Sacchi tbh who slags players off simply because they lack the crystalline talent and play like men possessed as Gullit, Van Basten and Baresi did. Well there's actually one Gullit, one Van Basten and one Baresi in football history.

 

[redcorner]

Says a lot that Mou is our most successful manager post Fergie
Yet people will still argue that Ole AKA 3 year cuddly bear, left us in a better position based on Feel good Factor

Yall need to ask yourselves a good question and that should solve the riddle of this thread

Who exactly improved under managers post MOU!

 

[lex talionis]

And....

Bailly £34m
Matic £40m
Fred £50m
Zlatan (free but cost £25m in signing bonus and wages)
Dalot £15m
Lukaku £85m

Jose also sold Depay on the cheap, who would probably have been a regular in our current team

Fukk me, how did I forgot everyone else you pointed out here?

I'm on board with a bit of revisionism on Jose's genius as United manager -- a couple of trophies of course, but the performances on the pitch crushed the soul -- but given the totality of the facts his tenure was a disaster. I'm not having any "Jose was right about the players" crap in light of the players he himself brought in.

 

[Irwin99]

But all of our players have underperformed this season. Some have had more flak than others, but generally speaking I can't think of one player who's performances have consistently met the standards required by a United player.

My point being, when one or two players underperform, clearly it's on them. When a squad underperforms for a few weeks, maybe it's on them. In our case, we've underperformed for a decade, and every single player who arrives here quickly falls of a cliff with respect their performance levels.

This is why I am expressing some sympathy with the players. They are really a victim of the chaotic approach to recruitment and the hiring/firing of managers.

That's a fair point as that can't help things, and as i've said, I know it can't be easy to work in a 'bad' environment, regardless of the money you earn. A number of our players have spoken out about depression which is a topic that's very sensitive and I sometimes think, what does playing for United do to these guys? On the other side of the argument, other clubs do have a fairly aggressive hiring/firing recruitment policy and it doesn't seem to be nearly as destructive.

Personally, I can't seem to shake the feeling that we have a problem with our player culture. Looking at some of the players individually:

• Pogba- His behaviour (and I suppose you could say more specifically his agent's) has been outrageous at times. That interview his agent gave on the night before a decisive champions league game was ridiculous. It's like Paul, you've had issues with Jose ("he messed with the wrong baller") Ole and now apparently Ralf. When can we reasonably suggest that the problem might be your attitude?
• Martial- he says he's so much happier in sunny Spain, enjoying his football again, all smiles....booed by his own fans, one goal in 12 games, and bad comments circulating about his work ethic by the Spanish press
• Shaw- allegedly happy to sign a new improved contract, next, in the very same month as the story emerged-subtext: "I don't feel loved, I'm not happy". Well documented issues with Jose and other managers about his physical condition at times.
• Rashford- god knows what's up with him
• Maguire- allegedly very sensitive to criticism. I have some sympathy as he get's a ridiculous amount of stick and that definitely hasn't been helped by some of the club's decisions such as giving him the captaincy after about 10 minutes of being here.
• Lingard- well documented problems under Ole and Ralf

You hear all this stuff and think 'what the hell is going on with these guys and the club itself'? On the flipside, there are some players you never hear bad stuff about, for instance Lindelof, DDG, Fred, Matic, Mata etc. regardless of their performances on the pitch.

 

[Greck]

When did Rashford and Lingard join that list? Jose favoured both in his team till Sanchez came.