I agree with you. I'm Mexican and about 90% of Mexicans aren't white. Nevertheless, the darker you are the uglier and poorer you are perceived. There are even some collocations like "piel humilde" (humble skin) that are used a lot without giving them much thought.
Vinicius Junior
- Thread starter jackofalltrades
- Start date
It's really good to see the Valencia players supporting Vinicius. Important to realize that some issues are bigger.
What a load of absolute bollocks. How have you typed that, read it over and pressed post?
If it’s such an unimportant matter why is it there has been such regular racial vitriol directed at black players over the years in Spain. If the people of Spain are so much better at looking beyond race why are these incidents happening?
Why do Spanish people who go to la liga matches direct monkey chants to black players if they don’t care about race and don’t like the matter of race being constantly brought up.
In 2004 why did MOST of the Bernabeu choose to target Englands black players with monkey chants? Was this a way of showing solidarity with black people?
How about Samuel Etoo suffering the same at Zaragoza? Whats the thinking behind these in your nonsensical post?
“Let’s draw attention to the black player and shower him with abuse to show that we don’t care about race”.. you’ll have to explain that one to me.
What about throwing bananas at Dani Alves? Was that also the Spanish way of showing England how to not be racist and not draw attention to race.
The reason the race issue keeps getting brought up is because for some inexplicable reason a significant amount of people who go to football matches in Spain choose, target and abuse black players. If you don’t fecking do it, nobody is going to talk about it.
The English Premier League has managed to get through an entire season without a discussion on race or a player being racially abused by large amount of spectators in the stadium.
This was achieved by people going to football matches and not racially abusing or singling out black players. It’s almost as if there’s a connection.
Manutd.com have put out a piece in support of Case's statement regarding this incident. There seems to be a lot of people speaking out about it as well, like some very strong statements from Rio. I wonder if this might end up becoming big enough that Tebas can't just sweep this under the carpet. It would be great to see players at other clubs, and then the clubs themselves, come out condemning this like Cas and United have.
Yes but it was pointed out that he has a tattoo of a weapon and thus rendering his opinion worthless.
It does not matter how irritating or annoying a player is. NOTHING gives anyone the right or justifies racial abuse. People are allowed to be arrogant. An arrogant person is still more decent that a dirty scumbag of a racist.
When you see Cebbalos, Vini's own teammate, state that the latter shouldn't have gestured back to the Valencia fans, you just know he's fighting a losing battle.
Also, for all the talk of "Don" Carlo, I'd have had far more respect and admiration if he'd backed up his talk with actually taking his team off the pitch yesterday. Madrid have absolutely nothing to play for this season so if he can't take such a stance this season, they certainly won't do it next.
Also, for all the talk of "Don" Carlo, I'd have had far more respect and admiration if he'd backed up his talk with actually taking his team off the pitch yesterday. Madrid have absolutely nothing to play for this season so if he can't take such a stance this season, they certainly won't do it next.
Are you serious? Does South America not ring a bell?
Yeah pretty much. For example, Argentina declared independence in 1816. Just 60 years later, in 1878 the government started what would be known as the "Conquest of the Desert", which entailed the expansion of its borders into aboriginal lands and the extermination of the indigenous populace. Those 60 years are just three generations.
Apart from all the criticism you received re. your portrayal of race attitudes in Spain, I'd also point out that this is a ridiculous generalization. Are you saying racism is exactly the same in all anglophone countries? Given you are discounting @Rooney in Paris's experience with Spain due to it not being long enough, I suppose you have lived long enough in every anglophone country? Including in various regions of them, cause a place like the US is pretty big and not very uniform.
These are of course nonsense questions - I don't need you to respond to them. Rather, I'm hoping you will realize your starting point here is nonsensical.
I'll add two more points. First, racial colourblindness is not a good thing. Part of your claim is that Spain isn't racist because it does not care about race. That is generally not how it works. In an ideal society - sure. But in practice, racial (and other) prejudices are everywhere, and the way to get rid of them, is by being aware of them and putting things in place to compensate for the issues those prejudices cause. That's why being preoccupied with racism is actually a good thing: it's what you need to get to solutions.
Second, you mentioned in one post that people are called 'faggots' in stadiums, and in another that Spain is one of the best places in the world for gay people to live. Don't you see that's contradictory? How can Spain be a great place for gay people if it's a common insult to call someone gay? Obviously, it's not the only factor, but it ties back to how you talk about racism. As also pointed out by @Iker Quesadillas, you appear to think insults count for nothing. Rather, insults betray underlying thinking (being black is bad, being gay is bad); and there is no way that thinking doesn't permeate actions (like, let's hire this white straight person in stead of that black or that gay person).
In short, your posts on levels of inclusivity and respect in Spain don't seem like a reliable source of information to me.
Saw videos of the incident. Get that Vini provokes reaction but in life there are certain line that should not be crossed. Tebas’s response was so tone deaf.
With La Liga matches being meaningless for Real Madrid for the rest of the season, they should walk off the pitch every game until Tebas apologizes
With La Liga matches being meaningless for Real Madrid for the rest of the season, they should walk off the pitch every game until Tebas apologizes
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As someone currently living in Spain, your line "Spanish people often think this because they don't think anything is racist." was - in my opinion - completely on point.
Football fans are generally a bit thick.
Valencia "fans" hurling racist abuse at Vinicius thinking it's funny, completely oblivious to the fact their team has Correia, Kluivert and Musah on the pitch.
Spain has been a cesspit for this behaviour for as long as I can remember, just as bad as Italy.
Valencia "fans" hurling racist abuse at Vinicius thinking it's funny, completely oblivious to the fact their team has Correia, Kluivert and Musah on the pitch.
Spain has been a cesspit for this behaviour for as long as I can remember, just as bad as Italy.
Tbh I think this is a very European trail of thought in general but that's for another day.
It never ceases to amaze how a Spanish person will pop up with an awful take on the topic of racism when their country is mentioned. Also, the reason why racism isn't a big deal in Spain is because white Spanish people literally just decide what is racist themselves
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I personally have also noticed, in my own experience, more racism in English-speaking countries, or perhaps it is that the racist minority was much more explicit.
In any case, yes, having been on the forum for years I think the problem , as you say, is that for us Spaniards nothing is racist.
I also think that people treat a black/indian Hispanic in a much more considerate way than an African, black Anglo or Maghrebi.
I think that in Vini's case, apart from the constant displays of racism, he has to fight against anti-Madridismo, being the star of Madrid. Cristiano also endured a lot of insults in the early years.
But in Cristiano's case he didn't care, while Vini focuses a lot on the stands (I'm not saying he's a provocateur, but because of his character he's more affected).
In any case, yes, having been on the forum for years I think the problem , as you say, is that for us Spaniards nothing is racist.
I also think that people treat a black/indian Hispanic in a much more considerate way than an African, black Anglo or Maghrebi.
I think that in Vini's case, apart from the constant displays of racism, he has to fight against anti-Madridismo, being the star of Madrid. Cristiano also endured a lot of insults in the early years.
But in Cristiano's case he didn't care, while Vini focuses a lot on the stands (I'm not saying he's a provocateur, but because of his character he's more affected).
Probably a bit hard not to when they make monkey noises and racially abuse you.
I don't think he's going to get the monkey thing every time he runs on the wing, but I mean he looks very affected by any chant.
Obviously he has to keep going down that road, until the cameras catch each and every one of them and starts to be jail time.
Is there a club in England that could do with a winger. Should tempt them(and him) with an offer.
Its been happening for a while hasn't it? I mean at some point you reach a breaking point.
Also Cristiano didn't face racism either
Millwall?
Can they afford his wages?
totally different mate. Cristiano wasn't racially abused. The worst he got was homophobic slurs, which are right up there with racism to be sure, but also, if you aren't yourself LGBTQ+ those kind of insults are much easier to shrug off since they don't actually hit you personally. In the same way chants of monkey don't hit a white person the same as they hit a PoC
Vini started reacting to the stands after the first incidents of racial abuse. Once that happens, unless you've been in his shoes it's impossible to follow his thought process(not sure about the wording here. What i mean is only someone who experienced racism can identify how that might affect a person long term). Notice how there was no such frenzy around him last season either, nor was he this agitated
Writing on this topic is like walking and trying not to step on eggs but...
In Ireland the "go to your own country" was a daily occurrence, especially with Bengalis and Poles. Often bad people who took advantage of their large numbers to intimidate.
As I say few people but they were very vocal.
I remember in Cork a couple of clubs with "Irish only" on the door.
In England (Gloucester)we were also struck by the fact that there were clubs where there were only whites and another one for blacks and more or less both considered that the other place was not for them. Older white people who, looking for supposed complicity with you, would say something rude against blacks, Pakistanis, Poles, Albanians, etc. And in general the feeling that some places are for whites and others are not.
But in any case, and I insist, a minority.
That's the issue, the threshold of what is considered racist is spain is much higher than where it is in other countries, hence the fact that some spanish posters here don't realize how upalling what Vinicius went through is. Minorities being explicit is actually a sign of progress, it means they know their voices will be heard. There's the same struggle in some states in the USA where nothing it's racist and the right wing is trying to tell people that racism exist because minorities talk to much about it.
The fact that Tebas is confortably sitting in his chair considering that he openly supports the far right and that he used to belong to a group that promoted a revival of Franco's ideas show that spanish people don't care. In england, germany, france etc. it would be an outrage. But in spain it's just being kept quiet.
It's so obvious how these racists are allowed to continue like this with the amount of people justifying or minimizing the impact of these chants. If you're not black yourself, try to educate yourself. Are they attacking him based
on his skin colour? That's racism. Done.
No ifs or buts. Anyone trying to defend it are just as bad as the racists chanting in my opinion. How dare you talk about anglo-obsession with race in this context? I understand it can be hard to accept that you live in, and that you're part of, a racist culture, but at least you're not subject to that racism.
on his skin colour? That's racism. Done.
No ifs or buts. Anyone trying to defend it are just as bad as the racists chanting in my opinion. How dare you talk about anglo-obsession with race in this context? I understand it can be hard to accept that you live in, and that you're part of, a racist culture, but at least you're not subject to that racism.
I think it's not really helpful to talk about 'English-speaking countries'. I know that started with @CampNou, not with you, but as to why it's unhelpful: first, there are huge differences between these countries, and also within each one of them. It's a general brush that is not very meaningful as such. (E.g., you talked about Ireland, and what you've seen there sounds absolutely nothing like what I see in my area of Canada - not that it's perfect, but it's nowhere near like that!)
And second, it seems to me @CampNou brought up English-speaking countries because we're on an anglophone forum, as a kind of whataboutism. ('How dare you anglos criticize Spain, your countries are much worse!') But there are people here from all over the world, so 'people from English-speaking countries' was never a relevant group to respond to in the first place.
Yeah ok sounds about right.
The takes of some Barsa fans....yikes...If your hate for Madrid makes you want to downplay the disgraceful, revolting racial abuse Vinicius suffers every time he plays away in Spain....best to stay out of this thread with some shitty takes. It was Mestalla and not the Nou Camp after all.
Brilliantly put.
Sorry, you are right. Anyway he is replying to a comment that refers specifically to non-English countries.
We have came a long way but let not kid ourselves, Spain feels like we were even as late as 1993.
Ex black players will tell you of the shocking abuse they received in the 80s and 90s.
We made it a social issue as well as criminal so racists would be condemned by their fellow supporters. That is why it stopped in the UK.
Until Spain and countries with similar issues do the same, nothing will change.
Agree with everything else except the bolded part. Unfortunately it hasn’t stopped in the UK.
Did you forget what happened to Rashford after your EL defeat two years ago, what happened to him and Saka after your Euros defeat, what happened to Ivan Toney last year and three months ago, how Son was subject to a racist gesture from the Palace crowd literally two weeks ago?
You might indeed have come a long way but please do not kid yourself that racism is gone from your society, especially amongst football fans. And that's not meant to be condescending by the way - the same happens in Belgium on a monthly basis, and Italy, Spain, you name it.
Surely you can tell by the context of my post that I am talking about racist chanting specifically at the grounds.
I would say that that has stopped apart from very isolated incidents that are publicised and widely condemned when they occur.
Oh yeah, I never considered his wages. Scratch that idea so.
Tell me you have small kids without telling me you have small kids. Got a flash of PTSD reading your post
This is spot on bro.