Veron against the Saints

spinoza

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I tried to keep count of the times Veron gave the ball away and the times he won the ball. Quite surprising results.

Veron:
gave the ball away 4 times
won the ball 11 times

Scholes:
gave the ball away 5 times
won the ball 5 times

Phil Neville:
gave the ball away 5 times
won the ball 9 times

Rio won the most balls btw.

Looks like Veron's improving. Though Old Trafford has a collective heart attack everytime he passes to the opposition.

You can probably get the right stats from Opta or something but I'm excluding all the irrelevant stuff like Becks trying to get out from the touchline at the end of the game.
 
The stat is never necessary. Everyone can see that Veron did very well in this match by their own eyes.

Though Old Trafford has a collective heart attack everytime he passes to the opposition.
<hr></blockquote>

I don't know what do you mean by that. Veron is never THAT bad. Yes he usually give away the ball quite a lot, because he tends to try too hard, too many long passes most time. His passing won't be any worse than Phil Neville, or even Giggs.
 
Originally posted by spinoza:
<strong>I tried to keep count of the times Veron gave the ball away and the times he won the ball. Quite surprising results.

Veron:
gave the ball away 4 times
won the ball 11 times

Scholes:
gave the ball away 5 times
won the ball 5 times

Phil Neville:
gave the ball away 5 times
won the ball 9 times

</strong><hr></blockquote>


the thing is, he's always under the microscope...

other players aren't, so they get away with it, while he gets slated.


he played well today, good to see him do well in PL....
 
Veron seems to be showing some form of genuine passion in his game this season, and it's showing in his performances. Last season there was alot of whincing and beard rubbing (???) whenever he gave the ball away cheaply or failed to track back properly, as opposed to expressions of anger and determination this time round. Maybe he's just beginning to express himself the way he can.
 
to be fair, from what i saw tonight i thought Veron had a good game and bossed the midfield. He seemed to be everywhere and his passing was good. Seems to be building up a particular understanding with Ruud. Lets hope he & the rest of them can continue improvement/consistency.
 
Definately seeing an improvement. The commentator yesterday said it as a result of Keane's absence, but I dont subscribe to that idea. With Keane it just gives him more opportunities to get forward.

We dont need these stats to convince ourselves that he's a good player, everyone can see that, and I'm convinced he will shine over these crucial four games where the best part of our midfield is out.

Its a pleasent suprise to see the Phil/Seba combo working so well BTW, been really impressive recently.
 
Originally posted by Gazza:
<strong>Definately seeing an improvement. The commentator yesterday said it as a result of Keane's absence, but i don't subscribe to the idea.</strong><hr></blockquote>

it does make sense.. without keane, seba has had to work much harder on his game because each screw up could mean a goal scored against us.. phil isn't big enough to cover for Seba..

so i agree with the commentator.. but anyway, it's nice to see Seba playing football again..
 
Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>

it does make sense.. without keane, seba has had to work much harder on his game because each screw up could mean a goal scored against us.. phil isn't big enough to cover for Seba.. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I dont think Seba plays any harder whether Keane is playing or not, I think thats a ludicrous statement. Clutching at straws.
 
Originally posted by Gazza:
<strong>

I dont think Seba plays any harder whether Keane is playing or not, I think thats a ludicrous statement. Clutching at straws.</strong><hr></blockquote>

of coz he has to play harder.. he's under a lot of scrutiny and i think he's been getting away with things because he has always had keane right behind him..

without keane, seba has no proper covers.. it's a good time for him to learn to cover all his holes.. i think it has given him the opportunity to become a more complete player.. if we are going to continue with 4-4-1-1 then seba would not given too many opportunities to search forward so he will need to be very strong and tough in middle of the field.
 
Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>

of coz he has to play harder.. he's under a lot of scrutiny and i think he's been getting away with things because he has always had keane right behind him..

without keane, seba has no proper covers.. it's a good time for him to learn to cover all his holes.. i think it has given him the opportunity to become a more complete player.. if we are going to continue with 4-4-1-1 then seba would not given too many opportunities to search forward so he will need to be very strong and tough in middle of the field.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Keano's presence will benefit the whole team, and even if he returns I don't think Seba will have any problem. If you still remember the first few games of this season, Keano has got forward to receive the pass from the midfield much more freqently then before. I think that's the trace that he is adjusting his playing style in order to suit Veron's presence.

I always believe that the player who conflict with Veron the most is Beckham. They are too similar in style. I have seen plenty of time when Beckham ran everywhere on the field and highly involved, Veron usually became an invisible man in that match. On the contrary, when Becks was rather quiet, or remained on the right for most of the time (like yesterday), Veron would usually be more active and have a more impressive game. That's certainly not concidence, I can tell you. So when will we get the most from Veron, that depends on when will Fergie find a way for Becks and Veron to adjust to each other and get a more clear division of job between them.
 
Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>

I always believe that the player who conflict with Veron the most is Beckham. They are too similar in style. I have seen plenty of time when Beckham ran everywhere on the field and highly involved, Veron usually became an invisible man in that match. On the contrary, when Becks was rather quiet, or remained on the right for most of the time (like yesterday), Veron would usually be more active and have a more impressive game. That's certainly not concidence, I can tell you. So when will we get the most from Veron, that depends on when will Fergie find a way for Becks and Veron to adjust to each other and get a more clear division of job between them.</strong><hr></blockquote>

if you really think that veron has quiet nights when Becks move in and play everywhere then i think it's either (or both) IMO:

1. SAF wanting becks to be more involved so he is pushed into the middle. pretty much the same way he's pushing giggs to play inside.

2. it's becks himself who wants to be more involved. he's always wanted to play in the center so maybe he's doing it out of desire and SAF is allowing it also.

either way i think it could harm our chances of playing quality football down the stretch.. we need players on top form so it'll be best if we use them in their correct positions and make the most of it.
 
Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>

if you really think that veron has quiet nights when Becks move in and play everywhere then i think it's either (or both) IMO:

1. SAF wanting becks to be more involved so he is pushed into the middle. pretty much the same way he's pushing giggs to play inside.

2. it's becks himself who wants to be more involved. he's always wanted to play in the center so maybe he's doing it out of desire and SAF is allowing it also.

either way i think it could harm our chances of playing quality football down the stretch.. we need players on top form so it'll be best if we use them in their correct positions and make the most of it.</strong><hr></blockquote>


I think Becks can't do that without Fergie's approval. But now Fergie should spot this situation and tell Becks to let Veron do the job in the centre midfield.
 
I hadn't even realised he was on the pitch


that's too bad because he was by far the best player in mdf yesterday.
 
I thought veron had a great game, given a free role to pick up the ball and direct proceedings from wherever he wanted to. Now we want to see that type of performance regularly but he will need cover from a midfield ballwinner such as Keane or Butt, just as he has with Simeone. JSV is not a ball winner, he's a distributor and a creator. He has superb talent so let's hope he can produce this type of performance in the big tgames and in that regard I'm thinking of Arsenal and Liverpool in the not too distant future.
 
Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>


I think Becks can't do that without Fergie's approval. But now Fergie should spot this situation and tell Becks to let Veron do the job in the centre midfield.</strong><hr></blockquote>

i think SAF knows exactly what is happening too.. in fact, i believe it's his idea that becks should push inside.. so i doubt things will change very soon.. although we did really get the best out of Veron yesterday when Becks was kept on the wing...
 
Originally posted by Julian Denny:
<strong>I thought veron had a great game, given a free role to pick up the ball and direct proceedings from wherever he wanted to. Now we want to see that type of performance regularly but he will need cover from a midfield ballwinner such as Keane or Butt, just as he has with Simeone. JSV is not a ball winner, he's a distributor and a creator. He has superb talent so let's hope he can produce this type of performance in the big tgames and in that regard I'm thinking of Arsenal and Liverpool in the not too distant future.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree, Seba had a great game yesterday. I think the difference to last year is that he's not trying anything fancy in the wrong part of the pitch so when he loses the ball we've got chance to recover rather than picking the ball out of the net. Also, I think Phil Neville deserves some plaudits for his performance yesterday. With Keano and Butt out, Phil is proving his worth filling the defensive midfield spot. Maybe his detractors will acknowledge what a good squad player he is now??

:)
 
Originally posted by Julian Denny:
<strong>but he will need cover from a midfield ballwinner such as Keane or Butt, just as he has with Simeone. </strong><hr></blockquote>

This is where I disagree. Keane isn't a ball winner and gets forward alot, leaving large spaces at the back. Butt or Neville suit his game far more than Keane imo.
 
Originally posted by JSV:
<strong>Veron seems to be showing some form of genuine passion in his game this season, and it's showing in his performances. Last season there was alot of whincing and beard rubbing (???) whenever he gave the ball away cheaply or failed to track back properly, as opposed to expressions of anger and determination this time round. Maybe he's just beginning to express himself the way he can.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Agreed! For once i am not slating Veron for his performance. ;)

He show a passion & desire to chase down a ball and was all over the pitch, esp the first half. Had a good game yesterday IMO. Hopes he keeps the desire throughout the season. :)
 
Originally posted by JSV:
<strong>

This is where I disagree. Keane isn't a ball winner and gets forward alot, leaving large spaces at the back. Butt or Neville suit his game far more than Keane imo.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You have a valid point in that I think Butt's game is more suited to JSV in that he holds the midfield. Roy's most effective when he's given the roving role as well and that tends to possibly clash with JSV. It's a tricky one this and it's tragic that Butt has been out when he could be cementing a good understanding with JSV. Despite this you cannot say Keane is not a ball winner (on song he's just about everything I would have thought) but that's not really the point you're making is it ? As far as Phil is concerned he's trying to manfully fill in and maybe in a strange way he compliments JSV as you suggest. Anyway it's a conundrum that Fergie has to resolve as you cannot see JSV, Keane and Butt in the same side unless its a 5 man midfield, which is another debate altogether.
 
Yes Veron did have a good game but lets remember we still had to leave it late and play with 3 out and out strikers. SAF is utilizing the 4-5-1 to tap Verons abvious talents but it does cause us to bog down and become predictable. I still feel in the premiership we need to play a 4-4-2 with Becks Keane (when available) scholes and giggs in the mid field. In Europe 4-5-1 is Okay adding in Veron and dropping OLE. Thoughts
 
Originally posted by Stanley Road:
<strong>Thanx for the stats

I hadn't even realised he was on the pitch <img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

You will never admit that you were wrong about him all along will you? <img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" />
 
It must be obvious to any fair minded individual that Veron is settling down & providing good performances on a more consistent basis than previously. Don't personally believe we have seen the best of him yet but do believe we will....see no evidence of apathy in the guy so his class must show eventually (& not just in flashes I hope!)
 
I agree. Veron has never lacked desire or shirked away.

It'll be interesting to see who Fergie signs as a striker. If it's a pacey striker to play off RVN then the clever chips, crosses and passes Veron makes will be perfect. If it's a Ronaldinho creative style player I wonder if it may cramp his style.

Still, pleased he had such a good game yesterday.
 
I dont think we should get to carried away with Verons performance against the saints - he did ok, nothing more than would be expected, and certainly no more than plenty of other midfielders do on a regular basis.

The team on the whole where very lucky to come out with a win - if not for forlans heroics i doubt we would have scored.

My view on this whole united are in decline thing is that our standards have dropped but we are not really in any 'crisis' because our standards where so high that even a below par united team is still better than most premier teams.
 
Originally posted by zippy:
<strong>.

My view on this whole united are in decline thing is that our standards have dropped but we are not really in any 'crisis' because our standards where so high that even a below par united team is still better than most premier teams.</strong><hr></blockquote>

If that's the case then its serious because, whilst we still compete with the average PL side, it means we no longer compete with Arsenal & Liverpool, who have taken their games to new and improved levels with strong squads. Also when it comes to the crunch in Europe we cannot expect to get past the quarters or at best the semis. Simply not good enough for a Club of our stature. The high standards we have set for everyone else to follow must be maintained not least by ourselves.
 
Originally posted by Julian Denny:
<strong>

If that's the case then its serious because, whilst we still compete with the average PL side, it means we no longer compete with Arsenal & Liverpool, who have taken their games to new and improved levels with strong squads. Also when it comes to the crunch in Europe we cannot expect to get past the quarters or at best the semis. Simply not good enough for a Club of our stature. The high standards we have set for everyone else to follow must be maintained not least by ourselves.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Where do you reckon we've gone wrong over the last few years, what do you reckon we should have done instead and what do you reckon we should do to rectify the current 'problems'?
 
Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>


Where do you reckon we've gone wrong over the last few years, what do you reckon we should have done instead and what do you reckon we should do to rectify the current 'problems'?</strong><hr></blockquote>

My concern went back to the start of the 1999/2000 season when nothing had been done to freshen the squad. Why should they, was the answer I got from OT. After all, the fantastic treble had been won and considerable money outlayed on the ground and Carrington. My feeling was that it was going to prove very difficult to stay at the top once that position had been achieved. Perhaps two maybe three players should have been brought in, not only to strengthen a couple of positions but also to keep things fresh and competitive. A partner for Stam, a left back to replace the ageing Irwin and a midfielder. Nothing was done and although we rolled over the weaker sides in the PL and won it by a record margin we were left horribly exposed against Real in the CL. Fergie's tactics or lack thereof were called into question for the first time. Same again the next season and the lessons of Real had not been learned. Our main rivals both at home and in Europe had sussed us out and Fergie tried in vain to counteract this development. So they tried to address the team issues with the signing of Veron to open up defences and RVN to score goals more regularly. Fergie tried to make us less predicatable and more fluid in attack using 4-4-1-1 for the first time in Europe. This initially served to confuse more than it benfitted the team. Before the start of last season, Fergie was at loggerheads with the Club over his future role, he seemed to lose focus and there was talk of a take over by his horseracing friends. He allowed McClaren to go and Yorke to uncontrollably languish away. He let Cole go at a crucial time of the season, even allowing for Andy's desire for regular first team football in order to get into the WC. He seemed more motivated by the success of his horse the Rock. The players sensed the "turmoil" and generally the team suddenly was in startling decline. Fergie then announced, just as the board were about to unveil SGE as the new manager, that he was going to stay on. Results improved but we came a poor third in the PL, having succumbed to Arsenal home and away as well as Liverpool on five consecutive occasions. Once again in the ECL we went out at the crucial stage to a side we should have beaten. By this time and even before I felt increasingly that Fergie's time had gone and that in any event we should have been looking for a replacement. Then this season, according to Kenyon,they felt that the only issue which needed addressing was the defence and as a result went out and got the best but the whole transfer budget had been expended . But what about the other issues, such as the strikers who were woefully thin on the ground? The back up for Giggs and the concern over the ability of Silvestre to establish himself as a consistent and effective performer. Amongst all this were the honest, perhaps too honest, revelations by Roy Keane that the team had not been good enough for two seasons and that latterly some members were not pulling their weight. Quite frankly, all this is the responsiblity of the Manager and it is to him we must look for solutions. To be fair I don't think he had the support from the Board regarding funds after the Treble but then again nobody saw the necessity to buy anyone. The huge amounts of money outlayed in the last two seasons have produced mixed results. Quality has been introduced there is no doubt but how that quality is marshalled and embodied in the side is down to Fergie. I think he's still struggling with the formation and how to get the best out of JSV in particular without upsetting Scholes too much. He's set his sights on the ECL and although we will of course compete in the PL, it's the big prize he's after. The cruel spate of injuries however has left us badly exposed and barely able to compete at home. Hopefully, with key players returning, that will not last. Some will accept the situation after such incredible and prolonged success. My view is that the standards have been set and the expectations are too high to allow the situation to decline to anything like that which prevailed in the 70's and 80's for example. I'ts time for a new and fresh approach and I fully expect Fergie to resign at the end of this season be it trophyless or even with the EC once again in his hands. Good luck to him.
 
Originally posted by Julian Denny:
<strong>

My concern went back to the start of the 1999/2000 season when nothing had been done to freshen the squad. Why should they, was the answer I got from OT. After all, the fantastic treble had been won and considerable money outlayed on the ground and Carrington. My feeling was that it was going to prove very difficult to stay at the top once that position had been achieved. Perhaps two maybe three players should have been brought in, not only to strengthen a couple of positions but also to keep things fresh and competitive. A partner for Stam, a left back to replace the ageing Irwin and a midfielder. Nothing was done and although we rolled over the weaker sides in the PL and won it by a record margin we were left horribly exposed against Real in the CL. Fergie's tactics or lack thereof were called into question for the first time. Same again the next season and the lessons of Real had not been learned. Our main rivals both at home and in Europe had sussed us out and Fergie tried in vain to counteract this development. So they tried to address the team issues with the signing of Veron to open up defences and RVN to score goals more regularly. Fergie tried to make us less predicatable and more fluid in attack using 4-4-1-1 for the first time in Europe. This initially served to confuse more than it benfitted the team. Before the start of last season, Fergie was at loggerheads with the Club over his future role, he seemed to lose focus and there was talk of a take over by his horseracing friends. He allowed McClaren to go and Yorke to uncontrollably languish away. He let Cole go at a crucial time of the season, even allowing for Andy's desire for regular first team football in order to get into the WC. He seemed more motivated by the success of his horse the Rock. The players sensed the "turmoil" and generally the team suddenly was in startling decline. Fergie then announced, just as the board were about to unveil SGE as the new manager, that he was going to stay on. Results improved but we came a poor third in the PL, having succumbed to Arsenal home and away as well as Liverpool on five consecutive occasions. Once again in the ECL we went out at the crucial stage to a side we should have beaten. By this time and even before I felt increasingly that Fergie's time had gone and that in any event we should have been looking for a replacement. Then this season, according to Kenyon,they felt that the only issue which needed addressing was the defence and as a result went out and got the best but the whole transfer budget had been expended . But what about the other issues, such as the strikers who were woefully thin on the ground? The back up for Giggs and the concern over the ability of Silvestre to establish himself as a consistent and effective performer. Amongst all this were the honest, perhaps too honest, revelations by Roy Keane that the team had not been good enough for two seasons and that latterly some members were not pulling their weight. Quite frankly, all this is the responsiblity of the Manager and it is to him we must look for solutions. To be fair I don't think he had the support from the Board regarding funds after the Treble but then again nobody saw the necessity to buy anyone. The huge amounts of money outlayed in the last two seasons have produced mixed results. Quality has been introduced there is no doubt but how that quality is marshalled and embodied in the side is down to Fergie. I think he's still struggling with the formation and how to get the best out of JSV in particular without upsetting Scholes too much. He's set his sights on the ECL and although we will of course compete in the PL, it's the big prize he's after. The cruel spate of injuries however has left us badly exposed and barely able to compete at home. Hopefully, with key players returning, that will not last. Some will accept the situation after such incredible and prolonged success. My view is that the standards have been set and the expectations are too high to allow the situation to decline to anything like that which prevailed in the 70's and 80's for example. I'ts time for a new and fresh approach and I fully expect Fergie to resign at the end of this season be it trophyless or even with the EC once again in his hands. Good luck to him.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thanks for that essay where you've just summarised what happened the last three years..

So basically you think Sir Alex is the problem?
 
Quality post Julian. I think you make your points very well and personally find them convincing.

Keane has been calling for the break up and reformation of the team since we went out to Real in the CL two seasons ago. I think he recognised the rot had set in.

I think Fergie knew that too.

The thing is the team isn't changing by revolution (a la the introduction en mass of the class of '92) but by evolution - a player here and a player there.

Truth is Utd haven't the talent coming through so are resorting to buying in quality. Utd are so big globally that only the top world class players are really contenders - and that costs big money (e.g. RVN, Veron, Ferdinand).

Utd are a team in transition: Manager wise even though Fergie has extended his stay and player wise with the end of the cole, Irwin, Johnson, Yorke, Stam era. In effect, much of the treble winning team is gone (keeper, 3 of the back 4, and the deadly strike pairing of Cole & Yorke). Only the midfield remains intact.

I think the next two seasons will be crucial. I don't expect too much to be honest. Utd are regrouping and investing long term. These next two seasons will be about buying well in crucial areas to provide a stable platform for the new manager.

By the way, if Sven is available at the end of the season, I expect Fergie to move upstairs. Failing that it has to be O'Neil for me in two years time.
 
Originally posted by zippy:
<strong>I dont think we should get to carried away with Verons performance against the saints - he did ok, nothing more than would be expected, and certainly no more than plenty of other midfielders do on a regular basis.

The team on the whole where very lucky to come out with a win - if not for forlans heroics i doubt we would have scored.

My view on this whole united are in decline thing is that our standards have dropped but we are not really in any 'crisis' because our standards where so high that even a below par united team is still better than most premier teams.</strong><hr></blockquote>

There's no pleasing some people ;) . I don't think luck had anything to do with it. We laid siege to the saints defence and they collapsed. Saying that we would not have scored if Forlan hadn't been there is irrelevant. Forlan is a United player and he had every right to be on the pitch, and we have every right to expect a goal from him.
 
Originally posted by Julian Denny:
<strong>

You have a valid point in that I think Butt's game is more suited to JSV in that he holds the midfield. Roy's most effective when he's given the roving role as well and that tends to possibly clash with JSV. It's a tricky one this and it's tragic that Butt has been out when he could be cementing a good understanding with JSV. Despite this you cannot say Keane is not a ball winner (on song he's just about everything I would have thought) but that's not really the point you're making is it ? As far as Phil is concerned he's trying to manfully fill in and maybe in a strange way he compliments JSV as you suggest. Anyway it's a conundrum that Fergie has to resolve as you cannot see JSV, Keane and Butt in the same side unless its a 5 man midfield, which is another debate altogether.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I should have clarified that I don't think Keane is just a ballwinner, although he does that excellently as well. I think with the advancement in Keane's age he will naturally begin to be forced to limit the tasks he undertakes in the midfield, and I somehow believe this will be to the benefit of the team as a whole. Sounds bizzare I know, but maybe Keane losing it a little could actally make us stronger.
 
Originally posted by Gazza:
<strong>Definately seeing an improvement. The commentator yesterday said it as a result of Keane's absence, but I dont subscribe to that idea. With Keane it just gives him more opportunities to get forward.

We dont need these stats to convince ourselves that he's a good player, everyone can see that, and I'm convinced he will shine over these crucial four games where the best part of our midfield is out.

Its a pleasent suprise to see the Phil/Seba combo working so well BTW, been really impressive recently.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The point the commentator was trying to make was with Keano and to a lesser extent Butt out, Veron was thrust into the role of main man in CM, which is the role he likes and has played throughout his career. It will be interesting to see when Keano is back and Veron is not the main man in CM, how will he play. Let's hope he is getting to term with the premiership and is able to play consistently.
 
Originally posted by Canadian Dee:
<strong>

The point the commentator was trying to make was with Keano and to a lesser extent Butt out, Veron was thrust into the role of main man in CM, which is the role he likes and has played throughout his career. It will be interesting to see when Keano is back and Veron is not the main man in CM, how will he play. Let's hope he is getting to term with the premiership and is able to play consistently.</strong><hr></blockquote>

unless, keane plays the holding role.....it won't work, the problem is that both players like to get forward, which isn't good for the balance of the midfield..butt on the other hand, is defensive midflield..which suits Veron.

anyway, i think verons had a decent season thus far....especially in Europe, lets hope he performs consistantly in the PL.. like he did on Saturday.
 
Yesterday was Seba's best Premiership performance of the season so far. He's been improving all season but i do think that Keane's prolonged absence has helped him. It will be interesting to see how it all fits together when Keane returns. But we'll have to wait and see.
 
Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>

Thanks for that essay where you've just summarised what happened the last three years..

So basically you think Sir Alex is the problem?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes. As much as I admire the man for what he has done and who he is as a person, the buck stops with him. We need a fresh look at things. However, we have fantastic players and we do not have to accept second best to anyone. With a bit of luck Fergie can still go out with a bang. I could be accused of wishful thinking though !
 
Originally posted by JSV:
<strong>

I should have clarified that I don't think Keane is just a ballwinner, although he does that excellently as well. I think with the advancement in Keane's age he will naturally begin to be forced to limit the tasks he undertakes in the midfield, and I somehow believe this will be to the benefit of the team as a whole. Sounds bizzare I know, but maybe Keane losing it a little could actally make us stronger.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Good point - quite agree, particularly vis a vis Veron.
 
Referring to the comment about Sven coming in or Martin O`Neill, my reaction was `Spare us`. I know there will be many who will disagree but I don`t think Sven is the wonder man he is cracked up to be.
I thought his tactics against Brazil in the World Cup were lame to put it mildly, a shocking lapse in judgement to put it more strongly. Mediocre, going-nowhere, square, defensive football. It would be interesting to see what Sven would do in the Premiership - with another club, not Manchester United.

As for Martin O`Neill, can somebody please tell me why a man who has won the Worthington Cup with Leicester and manages a big fish in the small and amateur stagnant pond of the Scottish Premier League deserves to manage the most famous club in the world and walk into the biggest hotseat in the world bar that of Real Madrid?

Given that Celtic regularly play teams with a level akin to that of Chester, how does this prepare Martin for the heavy duty pressure of the Manchester United job? I, for one, don`t believe Sir Alex is past it but unlike some others on this board I won`t go hysterical and slag them off for expressing their opinions.

But I do believe Martin is simply not ready yet - let`s see him perform at a big club before we are ready to hand over the reins of a powerhouse like Manchester United to a relative amateur.

As for Sven, I really have doubts about how successful he would be managing Manchester United. He has proved himself to some extent in managing Lazio but they played some bloody awful football under him (I have the Serie A videos to prove it, and while I applaud his relative success with England, managing an English national side
is different from managing an English club such as Manchester United.

What do you think?
 
Originally posted by giggsgirl:
<strong>Referring to the comment about Sven coming in or Martin O`Neill, my reaction was `Spare us`. I know there will be many who will disagree but I don`t think Sven is the wonder man he is cracked up to be.
I thought his tactics against Brazil in the World Cup were lame to put it mildly, a shocking lapse in judgement to put it more strongly. Mediocre, going-nowhere, square, defensive football. It would be interesting to see what Sven would do in the Premiership - with another club, not Manchester United.

As for Martin O`Neill, can somebody please tell me why a man who has won the Worthington Cup with Leicester and manages a big fish in the small and amateur stagnant pond of the Scottish Premier League deserves to manage the most famous club in the world and walk into the biggest hotseat in the world bar that of Real Madrid?

Given that Celtic regularly play teams with a level akin to that of Chester, how does this prepare Martin for the heavy duty pressure of the Manchester United job? I, for one, don`t believe Sir Alex is past it but unlike some others on this board I won`t go hysterical and slag them off for expressing their opinions.

But I do believe Martin is simply not ready yet - let`s see him perform at a big club before we are ready to hand over the reins of a powerhouse like Manchester United to a relative amateur.

As for Sven, I really have doubts about how successful he would be managing Manchester United. He has proved himself to some extent in managing Lazio but they played some bloody awful football under him (I have the Serie A videos to prove it, and while I applaud his relative success with England, managing an English national side
is different from managing an English club such as Manchester United.

What do you think?</strong><hr></blockquote>

You make some very valid points there. I mentioned Sven because apparently he was on the verge of agreeing to come to us when Fergie changed his mind. I did not express an opinion as to whether or not he would be the right man for what is probably the biggest job in football. I like Martin O'Neill and David Moyes but by Kenyon's definition they would not qualify due to inexperience. The same goes for Steve McClaren, but he's one to watch. Who else is there ? Hitzfeld, Capello or someone else from the continent ? Of course it all depends on when Fergie goes and if he sees out the remaining two years which I don't think he will although I could be wrong of course. If he doesn't he is likely to remain at the Club having moved "upstairs" in some capacity. The fact that he will still be there may be a problem for a prospective replacement though. My biggest fear is that this is going to be a re-run of the debacle that followed Busby's retirement which took the best part of 20 years to finally resolve. That of course is the bleakest outlook and such pessimism is not warranted , at least not for the time being. It's a huge task that awaits Kenyon and I wouldn't be surprised if quite considerable thought is being given to it right now.