Veron (again)

Livvie

Executive Manager being kept sane only by her madn
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Most of the posts - and there have been a few - about Veron seem to be divided into two camps, those which think he's the greatest thing since sliced bread, and those who think he's a waste of space.

More constructive surely would be discussion on his style of play and whether it suits United. It's not fair to blame him totally for everything - tho it might be fair to say that his arrival has unbalanced the team and has contributed a lot to this year's problems.

It isn't really Seba we should blame. He has the skill, that shouldn't be in question. What should be the question is whether he can adapt to a United style of play, or whether United should change to suit Seba.
 
Originally posted by True Treble Reds:
<strong>Pointless exercise here Liv coz within minutes, dippers'R'us will infest the thread and it'll turn into a slanging match.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You mean we can put a man on the moon, but we can't ignore the dippers?
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Originally posted by True Treble Reds:
<strong>Ignoring them isn't too difficult, it's the sifting through the thread for reasonable comments that tire me!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Surely you need only look at the name of the poster.

So lets get back to the topic. :)
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Right

Hopefully by now TTR will have stopped spoiling the thread with unrelated posts...

Yes he has the ability, this has been proven in the past, but I don't think its all down to either him or the team tactics etc. More likely a bit of both..

I don't think he suits your style, he slows the game down and likes to dwell on the ball, awaiting a killer pass. Whereas much of your joy comes from a high tempo, and quick passing through the midfield to allow for space for the likes of Giggs and Beckham...

That said, has he applied himself as your would expect? I remember the reaction to his performance against us as OT. He was praised for "getting stuck in"..and whilst I agree he was getting a few tackles in, was this the first time he had done so? Examples such as him giving the ball away to Hasselbaink at OT and then putting his head in his hands etc whilst they bombed down the other end to score are not the reaction your average fan wants to see..
 
Originally posted by Livvie20:
More constructive surely would be discussion on his style of play and whether it suits United. It's not fair to blame him totally for everything - tho it might be fair to say that his arrival has unbalanced the team and has contributed a lot to this year's problems.

I would agree with that. In a nutshell, he is, atm, too slow for the style that the rest of the squad is used to. I have noticed he has slowed more since his achilles injury though but the blinkered fan has decided to see that as lack of desire/effort rather than being hindered by a very painful injury (I had one when I was 17, I could hardly 'kin walk, nevermind play footy).

It isn't really Seba we should blame. He has the skill, that shouldn't be in question. What should be the question is whether he can adapt to a United style of play, or whether United should change to suit Seba.

In a post earlier this season, I said the coaching staff should try to implement some kind of formation/style that will utilise his talent. We have walked the Prem for the past 2 years but had no clue in Europe. Seba's talent wasn't utilised to the fullest this campaign because I don't think Fergie, tactically, had a full grasp on what he wanted to do.

Roles should be defined and stuck too rather than chopping and changing all the time. Injuries don't help, I know, but, playing him all over the park surely wasn't the way to fully capitalise on his talent as he couldn't get settled into one defined position ...

When I rated the players for this season in another thread, I realised that the three players I was most disappointed with this season were Seba, Giggsy & Scholesy ... It then dawned on me that these three, more than any others, were played out of position a lot!

I don't think a whole team should change to accomodate one player, however, when he has a style that could enhance our chances of winning at a higher level, maybe a few tweaks here and there shouldn't be amiss.

The title was lost before December imo, it was too much to expect to go unbeaten after that 6-3-6 start. Maybe now all the players have had time to see what each other is about, they'll gel better as a team. Here's hoping.<hr></blockquote>
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Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>Right

Hopefully by now TTR will have stopped spoiling the thread with unrelated posts...

Yes he has the ability, this has been proven in the past, but I don't think its all down to either him or the team tactics etc. More likely a bit of both..

I don't think he suits your style, he slows the game down and likes to dwell on the ball, awaiting a killer pass. Whereas much of your joy comes from a high tempo, and quick passing through the midfield to allow for space for the likes of Giggs and Beckham...

That said, has he applied himself as your would expect? I remember the reaction to his performance against us as OT. He was praised for "getting stuck in"..and whilst I agree he was getting a few tackles in, was this the first time he had done so? Examples such as him giving the ball away to Hasselbaink at OT and then putting his head in his hands etc whilst they bombed down the other end to score are not the reaction your average fan wants to see..</strong><hr></blockquote>

Davo??? Is that you???
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

Davo??? Is that you???</strong><hr></blockquote>

Some feckin Manc poof who was sat at my desk posted that..

I've punched him in the ear and am now back..

Veron is crap and a poof.. ;)
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I've posted this before, but seeing as it's the perfect subject for my post you can all read it again.


It's an amazing problem to have, but to gain the full utilisation of Veron is almost impossible to play all our 1st choice midfielders. At Lazio for example he used to play in the hole (where Zidane currently plays at Real and previously at Juve) behind Salas and Boksic and was amzingly effective. The difference was Lazio played with 3 true midfielders which thus relies alot less on wingers than a conventional 4-4-2 system, and unfortunately (in this case) we have possibly the two best wide players in the world. A midfield of Scholes, Keane and Butt for example would be the perfect ball winning midfield for Veron to play in front of, ala Simeone, Almeyda and Stankovic i.e. 4-3-1-2. However people may argue the old 4-4-2 was the best system we have, it was clear it wasn't working in Europe, whereas in the league it was and still is perfect. Just watching us at Old Trafford against Bayern was the perfect example of us at our most uncreative and unproductive. I for one still think Fergie made the perfect buy to solve this problem, however accomodating that buy without losing the grit and determination of our old midfield has proved difficult.

About Veron's work ethic, well i'm sorry to say he is and has always been inconsistent in this area. I remember watching him play for Parma against Milan where he was stunning to say the least, or for Lazio against Juve which Italians will tell you was possible one of the best ever displays of one player single-handedly demolishing an oppostion team, pure brilliance. However, he has never yet had a full season playing at that level and has perenially gone through a 10-15 period of the season where he was average, good by mosts standards, but for him, average. The upside of that was he would then (and he's done this without fail at every club he's played for) go on a run of a similar number of games and win the league for you. I think this year has been the first season ever for him where he hasn't done that. Intermittent bursts, yes. I read one of his interviews the other day where he explained how he's never had so many injury problems and consistently feels in pain towards the end of games, and his achilles seems to be the main culprit. He has also acknowleged he has had a couple of bad games. Considering all this, IMO it would be so stupid to write him off as a failure this season, or a money grabbing mercenary who has no care for the club. On the contrary, his comments seem to show more and more care for the club everyday and the will to improve. I for one am willing to give him the chance rather than listen to short-sighted people questioning everything from his footballing ability to his choice of holiday destination. I still maintain he could become one of the best players we have ever had at United.
 
BTW, he's also the only player i've ever seen who has scored directly from a corner with both his right and left foot.

Nicccccccce!

;)
 
I was wondering when that one good post to the 15000 wastes of space would show up davo! ;)
 
Veron is undoutedly quality, JSV. But we'd have to reconstruct our team around him (as you acknowledge) to get the best from him. We can't do that. I'd always rather have Giggs, Becks and Scholes in the side (Keane of course, but that goes without saying). And, as one of these players has to make way for Veron's inclusion, unless we play the dreaded lone striker, the answer is that Veron is superfluous. I'd love for him to prove me and many others wrong next season, but I'm not sure he'll be around to do so.
 
Originally posted by Niall:
<strong>I was wondering when that one good post to the 15000 wastes of space would show up davo! ;) </strong><hr></blockquote>

I;ve said that he's ill suited to your style for 'kin ages...and that he's been poor..

Whereas the main argument that I've had back is that he's been "good" and wil get better...which he hasn't..

So in fact, every single one of my Veron posts has been correct...

There's a shock..

;)
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I think a formation that would utilise Veron and he rest of the team perfectly should be,

------------Butt------------------
----------------------------------
Becks---Keane-----Veron----Scholes
----------------------------------
----------Giggs-------------------
----------------RVN---------------

IMO, that would give us both the protection behing Veron that he needs to not be a liability as well as the space to be creative. I think that formation is formidable to say the least, and it's proved to be so a few times this year.
 
Originally posted by JSV:
<strong>I think a formation that would utilise Veron and he rest of the team perfectly should be,

------------Butt------------------
----------------------------------
Becks---Keane-----Veron----Scholes
----------------------------------
----------Giggs-------------------
----------------RVN---------------

IMO, that would give us both the protection behing Veron that he needs to not be a liability as well as the space to be creative. I think that formation is formidable to say the least, and it's proved to be so a few times this year.</strong><hr></blockquote>

3 at the back then... ??
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Originally posted by Divine:
<strong>

3 at the back then... ??</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yup, it works fine for a number of Europe's finest teams, and as long as Butt and Keane do their defensive duties properly then the defence should be well protected. That said, our current defence personnel aren't up to this task due to it being essential the defenders all pacy at the back. Gaz, Ronny and Silvestre would be fine, but we need other defenders simply because other than them we are bare at the back.
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I actually meant the 5 man midfield when I said that, but you're right, we've never played with 3 at the back.
 
Originally posted by JSV:
<strong>I think a formation that would utilise Veron and he rest of the team perfectly should be,

------------Butt------------------
----------------------------------
Becks---Keane-----Veron----Scholes
----------------------------------
----------Giggs-------------------
----------------RVN---------------

IMO, that would give us both the protection behing Veron that he needs to not be a liability as well as the space to be creative. I think that formation is formidable to say the least, and it's proved to be so a few times this year.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Scholes is not a winger mate, thats one thing that was clear this year. Maybe Duff in that position. I however think that is where Giggs should be, and if we are looking for someone up front with a bit of trickery then we should buy someone like Di Canio to fulfill that - Giggs is not the right long term solution for it because he lacks a lot of the forwards skills, including finishing ability.
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Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>

I;ve said that he's ill suited to your style for 'kin ages...and that he's been poor..

Whereas the main argument that I've had back is that he's been "good" and wil get better...which he hasn't..

So in fact, every single one of my Veron posts has been correct...

There's a shock..

;) </strong><hr></blockquote>

But, you're wrong - he hasn't been poor, he's been average
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Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
Scholes is not a winger mate, thats one thing that was clear this year. Maybe Duff in that position. I however think that is where Giggs should be, and if we are looking for someone up front with a bit of trickery then we should buy someone like Di Canio to fulfill that - Giggs is not the right long term solution for it because he lacks a lot of the forwards skills, including finishing ability.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You don't have to be a winger to play effectively on the wing, with France being a prime example. Scholes has shown he can play there, and play well. I'm confident he could fulfill that role quite well given a little time.
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Originally posted by JSV:
<strong>

You don't have to be a winger to play effectively on the wing, with France being a prime example. Scholes has shown he can play there, and play well. I'm confident he could fulfill that role quite well given a little time.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Maybe, but IMO it's a waste not using Giggs as a pure winger. He's one of the world's best at that position, whereas there are plenty better deep strikers...
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Good article by Andy Gray at F365:

For people to point the finger at Juan Veron and blame him for Manchester United's failings this season is frankly ridiculous. And plain wrong

And it's folly to blame one man - as some people are - for them being knocked out of Europe by Bayer Leverkusen. Ruud van Nistelrooy and Ryan Giggs failed to perform in those games as well, but Veron seems to be getting more than his fair share of the flak.

I think that, by his standards, Veron HAS been poor in the second half of the season. But he has been asked to play in positions he's probably not comfortable in: wide on the left, wide on the right and just behind a lone striker. Maybe if he had been played where he does so well for Argentina, we would have seen a completely different Veron this season.

Obviously though, when you pay £28m for someone, they come under added pressure and people will notice if the lad is not at his best.

Alex Ferguson is right when he says Veron has had good games. He certainly has, particularly at the start of the season, but he's also had very poor games too.

And to suggest that there's some sort of media witch-hunt because he's Argentinian and England are playing them in the World Cup is nonsense. When you look at the plaudits Sweden's Freddie Ljungberg is rightly getting at the moment, then you see a glimpse of the treatment Veron could be receiving if he performed to the highest standards.

People are already talking about Veron being sold back to Lazio, but I think that if he is happy at the club, Sir Alex will want to keep him. You don't sell quality players, and Veron is truly a quality player.

It's going to take time for him to adapt to life in England, and it will take time for Manchester United to adapt to having him in the side.

I think United tried to change too many things in Europe this season. Maybe Sir Alex thought they were a little too rigid for European football and that their traditional 4-4-2 system, which has been so successful for them in the past, was too easily combated by the top teams.

I think he may have underestimated his players in that respect because they are all free-flowing, adaptable players (particularly Giggs and David Beckham) and changing the whole system may have been a step too far. Results show that United play better when they have two up front - Van Nistelrooy looked very, very isolated against Leverkusen - and it may have been a different game if Ole Gunnar Solskjaer had been on the pitch instead of one of the five midfielders.

Forget about Veron though, it doesn't take a genius to work out that the priority for United this summer must be sorting out their defence.

They must sign at least one quality centre-back; Wes Brown has shown he has a lot to learn, you never know when Ronny Johnsen will be fit and the key word for John O'Shea is 'future' - he's not ready yet.

I do not think that they can possibly go into next season with the same defence as will finish this one. But they could surprise me. I was very surprised that they didn't make an effort to sign Sol Campbell last summer, for example. They may have had a different season if they had done.

That said, to suggest that Arsenal are only where they are in the table because Manchester United have disappointed is silly.

I think Arsenal have been fantastic this season - and you just have to stand back and applaud their away record. They've been exciting to watch and very, very determined.

They have had a single-mindedness about them from the first day of the season - there was no way they were going to end up as bridesmaids for the fourth consecutive season.

If they win the title, and I think they will, they will have absolutely deserved it.
 
Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>

But, you're wrong - he hasn't been poor, he's been average</strong><hr></blockquote>

Average overall, poor by his standards and what we know he can achieve..

Major let down whatever way you look at it...
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Giggs has hit the nail on the head:

<a href="http://www.icons.com/giggs/new_diary.html" target="_blank">http://www.icons.com/giggs/new_diary.html</a>

Well said Giggsy! <img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" />
 
Phil Neville has also waded in to the defense of Veron (see Rednews). Shows how much it has affected the team. And seems to make it clear that Veron won't be sold in the summer, though he may choose to go himself. Looks more and more unlikely now though. I would now be even less surprised if Scholes was sold - 5 into 4 just does not go, and none of the 5 (not including Nicky Butt) are bench-warmers. I just hope those rumours of a swap deal for Thuram are the usual bullshit!
 
Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>Phil Neville has also waded in to the defense of Veron (see Rednews). Shows how much it has affected the team. And seems to make it clear that Veron won't be sold in the summer, though he may choose to go himself. Looks more and more unlikely now though. I would now be even less surprised if Scholes was sold - 5 into 4 just does not go, and none of the 5 (not including Nicky Butt) are bench-warmers. I just hope those rumours of a swap deal for Thuram are the usual bullshit!</strong><hr></blockquote>

There's no chance Scholes will go

This all shows the unity and the special spirit that have been fostered by Sir Alex

I disagree with you that we can't have all 5 in the squad. The injuries the last month or so shows that we do need all 5. They just have to accept that they will all have to sit on the bench from time to time. If it's made clear to them, and some don't accept it, THEN sell.
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tonight's match shows that seba is catching up on united style,he tackled and he helped the rest of the guys when he could.keep it up seba . next season will be your season to prove what a great player you truly are!
 
Season's over & Veron isn't a United player. Any other country and he would be out on his ear by now. I've personally given him too many chances and been made a fool of trying to defend him, no wonder SAF has lost the plot with the press doing the same! He's destroying Fergies pride.. SAF wants him to do well so much, but he realises now that he's been the biggest mistake of his managerial career. feck this anyway, Liverpool are going to finish above us, we're out of the top two for the first time in premiership history... I need a scapegoat, his name is Veron. and Silvestre is a total toss pot.. I hate those players who are so fecking great but don't do it often enough... feck ARSENAL
 
in all seriousness I dont believe he's suited to English football, as he doesnt have the time to dwell on the ball and pick his passes out like the quarterback. He's being made to get rid of the ball quickly and hence gives possesion away a lot.
Fair enough hes got a sore achilles, but that doesnt account for sloppy passing.
Also the rumours of in-house fighting arent very encouraging. It doesnt take a genius to work out who Keano's comments were directed towards in the papers this morning.
Give him half a season next year & if he's still not doing the business, then we should get rid of him.
Tell you what though, it will be very interesting to see if his 'injury' problems prevent him from having a blinding worldcup. If he does have a good one, then i dont think he can use injury as an excuse for his recent lack of form..
 
Originally posted by paddyduff:
<strong>Season's over & Veron isn't a United player. Any other country and he would be out on his ear by now. I've personally given him too many chances and been made a fool of trying to defend him, no wonder SAF has lost the plot with the press doing the same! He's destroying Fergies pride.. SAF wants him to do well so much, but he realises now that he's been the biggest mistake of his managerial career. feck this anyway, Liverpool are going to finish above us, we're out of the top two for the first time in premiership history... I need a scapegoat, his name is Veron. and Silvestre is a total toss pot.. I hate those players who are so fecking great but don't do it often enough... feck ARSENAL</strong><hr></blockquote>

My, but you're a good loser. ;)
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Scholes would fetch 20m+ and that money would be used to further strengthen the defense. I would not want to see Scholes sold. However, if United were to sell him, then purchase Thuram and Ayala with the Scholes transfer plus PLC kitty, and go on to win PL, CL, FAC next year, I would do it. Add in the transfer for Duff and PDC with the 2 world class CBs, and you have a solid lineup. United would miss Scholes, but Butt has really shown he is world class this season and Duff would be backup at wing. 7 into 4 does not work. United currently have 6 midfielders that would start at 99.9% of all clubs worldwide. It's great to have such depth, but a world class player like Scholes may be better off at a club where he is an automatic 1st choice...just as long as it's not a rival PL club. Whatever the board and SAF decide to do this summer, I'll support both. As long as they add a solid CB sometime between 1 Jun and 31 Aug.
 
I can't believe anyone is even thinking of selling Scholes.

It's hard enough trying to buy a real United player. Selling one would be ridiculous.
 
Veron was ace tonight and its probably the 1st time he's had such a public backing from the fans and it made a lot of a differance because he was brilliant, if he was'nt playing out of position and with an injury it'd have been even better.
Silvestre won the award (just pipping giggs) for shite performance award tonight
 
I think veron has cost you a lot this year, not because he is shit, but because you have had to mess with what was undoubtedly the best midfield in the country, just to accomodate him. if it aint broke dont fix it.
Anyway I think he is just the sort of player we need so hows about a straight swop for smicer or barmby then ;)
 
Next season's lineup:

Barthez
G. Neville Ayala Brown Silvestre
Becks Veron Keane Giggs
RVN Di Canio
 
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