Verón and the team, or the team and Verón?

WeasteDevil

Guest
Let us look at this in a sensible way.

Firstly, let us remove the last season and World Cup Verón has just had at the moment, and all agree that he is a World Class player. We have all seen it before, and we will see it again - for who is a different question.

Ok, so, last season most people, as they always do, looked at his performance on the pitch in a very holistic way - ie. the results it gave, and the errors that lead to goals against us.

That is the problem though isn't it? It's holistic, these people never concentrate on him an see what he is doing. Which leads to my question.

Verón last year made a massive amount of fantastic visionary passes that the receiving player either did not have the vision to predict or did not have the skill to control, and in each of those cases the blame was put on Verón for the breakdown in attacking play.

Well, I do not believe that to be so - I believe that the team needs to change to Verón and not the other way, because if Verón changes to the team there is no point having him in the first place. Once the rest of them can understand what he wants to do, and learn to control some of his great passes then as a team we wil really move up to another level.

We've played in the same way for far too long and Verón was brought in to change that, but the trouble is it takes our other players time to learn how to accept those passes that Verón makes as well as learn how to control them. What he is doing, although unseen is improving the skill of our players as a whole, and once we can play in our traditional way as well as accept and control passes like the ones Verón provides we will be unbeatable.

Takes time!

Now argue! :)
 
Originally posted by paulengland:
<strong> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

No opinions for once, I'm shocked! :eek:
Click to expand...
 
The team did fine before him, we will do fine without him.

If he cant adjust his skills etc. to fit in with the rest of the team - there is no point trying and trying.

let him have another chance - if he doesnt produce the goods, sell him.

Simple as that.
 
Originally posted by paulengland:
<strong>The team did fine before him, we will do fine without him.

If he cant adjust his skills etc. to fit in with the rest of the team - there is no point trying and trying.

let him have another chance - if he doesnt produce the goods, sell him.

Simple as that.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's the point, there was no point buying him to fit him into the team. SAF knew that, he knew that his team were not at the level required playing the old English system of 4:4:2, and needed something else. His vision is fantastic, but so many times I see him play a great ball and the receiving player doesn't control it. It's not his fault, but the player that can't control the ball.

Don't you see that by training and playing with him will make them all better players, and when it all clicks it will be absolutely awesome. It's simply adding an extra dimension to what we already have.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by Marcus:
<strong>Weaste, is it easier to change 1 man or 11 men?</strong><hr></blockquote>

You're living in 26 May 1999 mate! Things have moved on, and with him in the team we've done the best we ever have in that competition since that date. If Becks, G Nev, and Keane had been fit for those final two games we would have been in there.

Remember his performance against Deportivo - whilst carrying an almost season long injury!
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>

That's the point, there was no point buying him to fit him into the team. SAF knew that, he knew that his team were not at the level required playing the old English system of 4:4:2, and needed something else. His vision is fantastic, but so many times I see him play a great ball and the receiving player doesn't control it. It's not his fault, but the player that can't control the ball.

Don't you see that by training and playing with him will make them all better players, and when it all clicks it will be absolutely awesome. It's simply adding an extra dimension to what we already have.</strong><hr></blockquote>

So now our players cant do the basics like - control the ball?
:confused:

He was bought to give an extra option in the Cl because we were getting frustrated by the top teams, they knew how we always played.


Until he proves to me that he is fit to wear the United top, I will not defend him. Yes he has been a fantastic player pre-united, but you could have played yaps in the games he played in last year with more effect.
With the exception of a few games he was City Standard at best.
Like I said - give him another year and see how he fairs.
Id put my money on him playing no more than 25 games for us this season, purely because he will constantly under perform.
Click to expand...
 
here's your problem...veron is better than scholes, but beckham thinks he's better than veron. "what?" you say...well, here's how it goes; veron would be great if the other players allowed him to dictate the pace of the game with his passing. he's great at this, as he's proven everywhere hes played upto this season. neither scholes or beckham can do this (but beckham THINKS he can). when scholes and beckham play together, scholes allows beckham to attempt to dictate the game (are you following me to this point?)...but veron, when he plays (instead of scholes), needs to run the show himself. beckham, however, fancies himself to be a player of a similar ilk (which he's not), and instead of complementing veron (by doing the donkey work), tries to match or exceed him. if beckham ever got back to what he does best (sticking to the touchline, putting in crosses, etc,), you'd be deadly. but beckham is always roaming around the field thinking he's fecking beckenbauer or something, and the team loses it's shape. veron is forced into an unfamiliar role, and his game suffers...anyways, that's my theory. scholes is a good player, but he's limited in his passing...you wanna keep playing scholes and beckham, go right ahead...you'll still win your fair share of games. but, if you could ever get veron and beckham to click, you'd be almost unstoppable. maybe your new assistant manager can work it out, he seems a lot more on the ball when it comes to tactics than your current manager does.
 
Paul, you don't get it do you? Of course our players can control the ball, but they don't expect such ordacious passes! Lack of vision you see! :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by usual_suspect:
<strong>here's your problem...veron is better than scholes, but beckham thinks he's better than veron. "what?" you say...well, here's how it goes; veron would be great if the other players allowed him to dictate the pace of the game with his passing. he's great at this, as he's proven everywhere hes played upto this season. neither scholes or beckham can do this (but beckham THINKS he can). when scholes and beckham play together, scholes allows beckham to attempt to dictate the game (are you following me to this point?)...but veron, when he plays (instead of scholes), needs to run the show himself. beckham, however, fancies himself to be a player of a similar ilk (which he's not), and instead of complementing veron (by doing the donkey work), tries to match or exceed him. if beckham ever got back to what he does best (sticking to the touchline, putting in crosses, etc,), you'd be deadly. but beckham is always roaming around the field thinking he's fecking beckenbauer or something, and the team loses it's shape. veron is forced into an unfamiliar role, and his game suffers...anyways, that's my theory. scholes is a good player, but he's limited in his passing...you wanna keep playing scholes and beckham, go right ahead...you'll still win your fair share of games. but, if you could ever get veron and beckham to click, you'd be almost unstoppable. maybe your new assistant manager can work it out, he seems a lot more on the ball when it comes to tactics than your current manager does.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's a lot to take in in one go! ;)
Click to expand...
 
I totally agree with usual_suspect in the fact that someone should TELL Beckham to stay on that right wing and stop roaming all over the bloody show. He's been a right git in that respect! <img src="graemlins/annoyed.gif" border="0" alt="[Annoyed]" />
 
Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>Paul, you don't get it do you? Of course our players can control the ball, but they don't expect such ordacious passes! Lack of vision you see! :rolleyes: </strong><hr></blockquote>

I never do get it with you mate... Im sure im not alone.

Your basically saying Veron is on a different wavelength to the others hence the miscontrol etc.

Am I right?
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by paulengland:
<strong>

I never do get it with you mate... Im sure im not alone.

Your basically saying Veron is on a different wavelength to the others hence the miscontrol etc.

Am I right?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sort of yes, he tries to do things with them that they don't expect. But in the 15% of times when the expect it then it's absolute class - Deportivo is one example with his fantastic pass to Solskjaer if I remember correctly.

They just all need to gell a bit more and learn the daft things Verón tries to do. That midfield before Verón has played with each other so long they all know in the main what each of the others is going to do. But, the other teams have started to lean what the are going to do too - stale. What Verón brings is something totally baffling to the opponents in that they have not got a clue what he is going to do - problem being, most of the time, neither have his team mates.

Give it time, and it will fruit!
Click to expand...
 
Then id suggest Veron should learn to understand what the others want.
Surely that would be far easier.

Verons passing and vision are exceptional at times - but I wouldnt put his tripe performances down to the others not understanding....

more like him being shit n all....

You name me 5 games last season that Veron excelled in and ill name 35 that he didnt.
 
Originally posted by paulengland:
<strong>Then id suggest Veron should learn to understand what the others want.
Surely that would be far easier.</strong><hr></blockquote>

No point having him then, as you would be playing exactly the same way as before - fixing something that wasn't broke in EPL terms (but would in time be broken), but could never regain the European Cup again.

It wasn't Verón's fault that we lost the EPL last year, you can blame that 100% on the defence!

And we didn't win the CL because of injuries.

It's as simple as that!
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by paulengland:
<strong>You name me 5 games last season that Veron excelled in and ill name 35 that he didnt.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Because he did perform in his alloted role for most, but the other players were not in tune with him. It takes time Paul. A fantastic pass only looks to be so for some people when another player is on the end of it - but what if they are not? Is it the fault of the player passing the ball or the player that didn't see the opportunity of receiving the ball?

And don't give me the crap about him loosing the ball, because Keane as well as Scholes lost the ball through bad passes by the bucket full last season!
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>

No point having him then, as you would be playing exactly the same way as before - fixing something that wasn't broke in EPL terms (but would in time be broken), but could never regain the European Cup again.

It wasn't Verón's fault that we lost the EPL last year, you can blame that 100% on the defence!

And we didn't win the CL because of injuries.

It's as simple as that!</strong><hr></blockquote>

You cant expect the united veterans to suddenly change there thinking to suit Veron. Im sure SAF doesnt.

If the 4-4-1-1 had worked with scholes etc, Im sure Veron would have been more succesful, He could have dropped back and Scholes would be the link between midfield and Ruud. with veron or Keane the link between defence and midfield.

The fact that 4-4-2 with Veron looking to be the playmaker - exposed the midfield. He wanted to hang off them and play long balls all the time, instead of using some of the natural skill he has in skinning players.. Playing a defensive role gave him more time on the ball - which he craves. But this frustrates the other players aas they look for the 1-2 etc.

He was bought not just to be another beckham ball specialist. He has skill. He just chooses not to use it.


It was a combination of errors that lost us the EPL.

Errors by Blanc, Barthez and Veron mainly.
Click to expand...
 
Jesus christ here we go again, yet another Veron topic. So Veron is a class passer eh.! well what fecking team were you watching certinally not the one with veron in it, so where do you get that fecking idea. Did you actually SEE the feck ups he made passing the ball, not just with United but with Argentina as well.
Veron IS a class player but dont lets start waging debate between him and Beckham AGAIN. Two different players, two different styles. They are both United players. End of story. Watch, observe, if you dont know ask, but dont come in here posting bullshit when it is so fecking obvious you have no fecking idea what is good and what is bad.
 
Originally posted by paulengland:
<strong>He just chooses not to use it.

It was a combination of errors that lost us the EPL.

Errors by Blanc, Barthez and Veron mainly.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The "chooses not to use it" is a bit of an odd comment IMO. Why would he choose not to use his skill?

And how you can blame Verón for loosing us the EPL is totally beyond me. It was that defence as a whole.

I remember (sorry it was a CL game against Deportivo) when Gary Neville fecked up the offside trap and played them on. It's all swings and roundabouts mate, but none of it has to do with Verón, and anyone that seriously thinks that Verón lost us anything is an absolute looper IMO! ;)
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by Cockneyred:
<strong>Jesus christ here we go again, yet another Veron topic. So Veron is a class passer eh.! well what fecking team were you watching certinally not the one with veron in it, so where do you get that fecking idea. Did you actually SEE the feck ups he made passing the ball, not just with United but with Argentina as well.
Veron IS a class player but dont lets start waging debate between him and Beckham AGAIN. Two different players, two different styles. They are both United players. End of story. Watch, observe, if you dont know ask, but dont come in here posting bullshit when it is so fecking obvious you have no fecking idea what is good and what is bad.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Who asked you, you cockney cnut? Feck off and support Spurs will ya? :p
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by Cockneyred:
<strong>Jesus christ here we go again</strong><hr></blockquote>

This is a sensible discussion about what went wrong, and does not require your snapshot opinions in a great long paragraph that is difficult to read. If you have nothing decent to say, then go back to the football forum please.
Click to expand...
 
Go feck yourself you Spanish cnut. Just because I seriously object to some prat coming in here and claiming that Veron is a brilliant passer when several of his passes cost us dearly last season then I will tell that cnut just where to go and in any case I will post what and when I like. Just because you start the post what do you think you are some fascist pig from Italy.!! :D
 
Originally posted by Cockneyred:
<strong>Go feck yourself you Spanish cnut. Just because I seriously object to some prat coming in here and claiming that Veron is a brilliant passer when several of his passes cost us dearly last season then I will tell that cnut just where to go and in any case I will post what and when I like. Just because you start the post what do you think you are some fascist pig from Italy.!! :D </strong><hr></blockquote>

Are you on drugs, because I've never seen you make one single constructive post in your time here? <img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" />

You're simply abusive and nothing more, and a cockney! What's new? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>

The "chooses not to use it" is a bit of an odd comment IMO. Why would he choose not to use his skill?

And how you can blame Verón for loosing us the EPL is totally beyond me. It was that defence as a whole.

I remember (sorry it was a CL game against Deportivo) when Gary Neville fecked up the offside trap and played them on. It's all swings and roundabouts mate, but none of it has to do with Verón, and anyone that seriously thinks that Verón lost us anything is an absolute looper IMO! ;) </strong><hr></blockquote>

Only he can decide if he is gonna run at players as we know he can.... His Choice.

The Boro game sticks in my mind as the biggest Fcuk up by Veron. Wasnt the defences fault.

Like I said mate - for every game you say he played well - ill name more that he didnt.


Cockney Red - Feck off...

And if your gonna slag someone - at least have the decency to say who your aiming it at.

Southern tw@.

<img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" />
Click to expand...
 
Oh really!! Well you are a complete fecking hypocrite, because my wop friend you have commented several times on my class posts.

I have forgotten more than you will ever know. Just go to the FAO Paul if you know where to look and you might get some fecking idea.
 
Originally posted by Cockneyred:
<strong>Oh really!! Well you are a complete fecking hypocrite, because my wop friend you have commented several times on my class posts.

I have forgotten more than you will ever know. Just go to the FAO Paul if you know where to look and you might get some fecking idea.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes mate, whatever you say, you spout opinions without providing any reasoned argument to back them up. I believe you.

Now go and support your local club! <img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" />
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>I totally agree with usual_suspect in the fact that someone should TELL Beckham to stay on that right wing and stop roaming all over the bloody show. He's been a right git in that respect! <img src="graemlins/annoyed.gif" border="0" alt="[Annoyed]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>


one of them has to compromise...either veron moves out wide occasionally (like gerrard does for england) when beckham cuts in, or beckham gets his head out of his arse and realizes that he's NOT a world class central midfielder, and lets veron do his job properly.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by paulengland:
<strong>Only he can decide if he is gonna run at players as we know he can.... His Choice.

The Boro game sticks in my mind as the biggest Fcuk up by Veron. Wasnt the defences fault.</strong><hr></blockquote>

He's never been a player to run with the ball!

And Ok, one mistake, but any decent defence would have mopped that up!
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by usual_suspect:
<strong>one of them has to compromise...either veron moves out wide occasionally (like gerrard does for england) when beckham cuts in, or beckham gets his head out of his arse and realizes that he's NOT a world class central midfielder, and lets veron do his job properly.</strong><hr></blockquote>

My god, I'm agreeing with a scouser! :eek: ;)
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by usual_suspect:
<strong>


one of them has to compromise...either veron moves out wide occasionally (like gerrard does for england) when beckham cuts in, or beckham gets his head out of his arse and realizes that he's NOT a world class central midfielder, and lets veron do his job properly.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Fcuk off..

This is a Veron thread not Beckham.....


usual_shite


:D
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>

He's never been a player to run with the ball!

And Ok, one mistake, but any decent defence would have mopped that up!</strong><hr></blockquote>


I dont neccesarily mean ala Giggs, but he can certainly run with the ball - but doesnt.

Iv seen him in his Lazio days mate. He is not all about longball passing.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by paulengland:
<strong>


I dont neccesarily mean ala Giggs, but he can certainly run with the ball - but doesnt.

Iv seen him in his Lazio days mate. He is not all about longball passing.</strong><hr></blockquote>

He's no Zidane in that respect!
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by Cockneyred:
<strong>
Oh shit another ponce.!! :D </strong><hr></blockquote>

Bugger off you, he's a scouser and you're a cockney, no difference! <img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" />
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>

He's no Zidane in that respect!</strong><hr></blockquote>


But he is more of an attacking player than he has ever shown us...

He has skill.... Listen to me.

He just needs to use it.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.