Venezuela – socialist paradise on the verge of collapse

Eboue said:
I was referring to Trump and Bolsonaro.

Look, I dont know enough about Venezuela to really comment on whether Maduro is good or bad or whatever. But I do know enough about American foreign policy to know our interventions are generally a Bad Thing. And even more so, the hypocrisy of crowing about democracy while supporting a coup is galling. I dont want to hear anyone complain about Russian election interference unless they are also condemning this.
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Maduro's election has widely been denounced as fraudulent by international bodies though. Subverting the results of elections probably stops being anti-democratic when the elections themselves are literally rigged. I mean accepting the results of an anti-democratic election is hardly a democratic stance to take. It's just acquiescing to authoritarianism.

Once the democratic process has been seized in that way I'm not sure there is a way out that doesn't at least initially involve some sort of coup or intervention to restore fair elections.

Whether this opposition actually support real democracy though, I have no idea.
 
Eboue said:
I was referring to Trump and Bolsonaro.
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Oh, my bad.
Eboue said:
Look, I dont know enough about Venezuela to really comment on whether Maduro is good or bad or whatever. But I do know enough about American foreign policy to know our interventions are generally a Bad Thing. And even more so, the hypocrisy of crowing about democracy while supporting a coup is galling. I dont want to hear anyone complain about Russian election interference unless they are also condemning this.
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Agree with all of that but I haven't read of an actual intervention up to now. To be perfectly honest I don't know enough to really judge either, but the news coming from Venezuela the past 5 years or so have been constantly terrible. I have no clue about this new chap and what a potential presidency could mean.
 
Maduro is Chavez without the charm. People in Venezuela have lost like 10kg+ in average during his spell and are starving. A change here is a good thing.
 
Almost all the Hispanic countries have supported Guaidó. Still missing México (and Spain). Lenin Moreno, from Ecuador also did it a while ago, Maduro replied by calling him a disastrous nazi fascista, anti-Bolivarian traitor
 
carvajal said:
Almost all the Hispanic countries have supported Guaidó. Still missing México (and Spain). Lenin Moreno, from Ecuador also did it a while ago, Maduro replied by calling him a disastrous nazi fascista, anti-Bolivarian traitor
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For now Mexico/Andres Manuel will continue to support Maduro. Hardly surprising.
Countries that support guaido: Argentina, Brazil, Peru, Costa Rica, Colombia, USA, Canada, Ecuador, Paraguay, Chile, Guatemala.

Countries that explicitly support maduro: Russia, Mexico, turkey, Bolivia, cuba
 
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The Guaido guy wants to become president like this or have new elections if Maduro steps down? If it's the first it's a bit sketchy. Either way, Maduro is a dead man walking, no way his regime can turn things around.
 
In Bogota at the moment and cheering Venezuelans going by the hotel constantly.
 
What Maduro had been doing in Venezuela is appaling, has to be removed from power. But at the same time foreign intervention is always troublesome, specially with US history on latinamerica coups and change of regimes. I am not in favour or what Trumo did, but all my Venezuelan friends that leaves in Venezuela an they were real middle class (not by any chance close to elite) had been struggling seriously. One of them, his father, a university teacher had to leave to work as a vendor in Peru. Him was about to follow his steps but was able to find a job as store administrator. What he had been telling me on dollar fluctuation is insane. Changing prices daily or even twice a day. When doing a transaction, his dentist reserved the right to charge more if in that precise instance the dollar in the black market fluctuates. Telling me that he has to have his bread camouflaged because if not, everybody would ask a piece on the way home

So if they are telling me (they never liked Trump) that is the only option, I trust them. But if Guaido doesn't do anything to restore true democracy through short term elections after stabilizing the country, Venezuela will not improve, specially in the trust on the politicians.

All southamerican governments supported Guaido, because if not they would be exposed in 2019 in the biggest refugee diaspora of south american history. in the last 2 years, 2 million of venezuelan left the country. This year was forseen even more
 
Why are people making this like being an US initiated revolution? What does US has to do with it, or it has just become cool to slam US for everything.

Yes, Trump recognized the new president, but so did all of South American countries bar Uruguay and Bolivia, some European countries, EU council and so on. Let's not start pretending that Argentina and US have the same foreign policy, for God's sake.

Maduro has to go.
 
Revan said:
Why are people making this like being an US initiated revolution? What does US has to do with it, or it has just become cool to slam US for everything.

Yes, Trump recognized the new president, but so did all of South American countries bar Uruguay and Bolivia, some European countries, EU council and so on. Let's not start pretending that Argentina and US have the same foreign policy, for God's sake.

Maduro has to go.
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In case this was related to my comment, I do not claim that the US is fully responsible for this, I implied that it would serve a suitable diversion tactic for drumf to make an intervention now. Will steal a bunch of news cycles and it's not like he hasnt mentioned this before.
 
Last updates

  • Maduro assets are being frozen in anywher that US has a saying. Maybe fake news but they sized 1.2 billions USD
  • Pompeeo said that they will fund Guaido (the guy that proclaimed himself as president through articles 233 and 333 of the constitution) with anything that might need
  • The army stands by Maduro...for now
  • US diplomats are being evacuated
  • Abrams appointed as head of operations on this coup, delivering democracy, rightful presidency whatever suits the reader better. The same Abrams that was involved in the failed coup against Chavez in 2002. The same Abrams in charge of taking out Noriega from Nicaragua in 1989
  • European Union to recognize Guaido if Maduro doesn't appoint elections in 8 days (will never happen)
  • Guaido to appoint elections in 6-9 months
Shit is going real, Maduro will not survive this as president...maybe neither alive
 
Our government still say they recognize Maduro as the leader of Venezuela, though with them being our closest neighbor, I can understand them wanting to remain somewhat neutral on this for now.

The bigger issue though, is that something really needs to be done. Regardless of who is running things, Venezuela needs a lot of help. It’s causing loads of problems for us as well. There’s been a huge influx of illegal immigrants from Venezuela to Trinidad. Now I fully understand that these people need help, and I’m not anti immigration, but feck me our population is 1.3 million people and we have enough problems as it is with the now lower oil prices. We can’t handle mass immigration from a country with a population of 31 million, it’s just not feasible.

Some kind of proper intervention is needed to get Venezuela back on its feet.
 
What's Guaido actually like?
 
Revan said:
Why are people making this like being an US initiated revolution?
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https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-call...uncertain-new-course-in-venezuela-11548430259


Revan said:
What does US has to do with it, or it has just become cool to slam US for everything.
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Guess who's been brought in as a special envoy

https://www.thenation.com/article/a...minal-may-become-our-second-ranking-diplomat/

But these are still relative misdemeanors in the Abrams dossier, paling in comparison with the role he played in the Reagan administration. As assistant secretary of state for human rights, Abrams sought to ensure that General Efraín Ríos Montt, Guatemala’s then-dictator, could carry out “acts of genocide”—those are the legally binding words of Guatemala’s United Nations–backed Commission for Historical Clarification—against the indigenous people in the Ixil region of the department of Quiché, without any pesky interference from human-rights organizations, much less the US government.

As the mass killings were taking place, Abrams fought in Congress for military aid to Ríos Montt’s bloody regime. He credited the murderous dictator with having “brought considerable progress” on human-rights issues. Abrams even went so far as to insist that “the amount of killing of innocent civilians is being reduced step by step” before demanding that Congress provide the regime with advanced arms because its alleged “progress need[ed] to be rewarded and encouraged.”

Promoted to assistant secretary of state for inter-American affairs, Abrams repeatedly denounced the continued protests by organizations seeking to call attention to the mass murders of both Ríos Montt and the no less bloodthirsty President Vinicio Cerezo Arévalo, who came to power fewer than three years later. In one village during the latter’s reign, “the army herded the entire population into the courthouse, raped the women, beheaded the men, and took the children outside to smash them to death against rocks,” according to Inevitable Revolutions, Walter LaFeber’s classic history of the United States in Central America. At the time, a leader of the Guatemalan Mutual Support Group (an organization of mothers of the disappeared), her brother, and her 3-year-old son were found dead in their wrecked car. Abrams not only supported the nonsensical official explanation (there was “no evidence indicating other than that the deaths were due to an accident”), he also denounced a spokeswoman for the group who demanded an investigation, insisting that she had “no right to call herself a human rights worker.” When The New York Times published an op-ed challenging the official State Department count of the mass murders under way—by a woman who had witnessed a death-squad-style assassination in broad daylight in Guatemala City without ever seeing it mentioned in the press—Abrams lied outright in a letter to the editor, even citing an imaginary story in a nonexistent newspaper to insist that the man’s murder had, in fact, been reported.
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Spain will recognize Guaidó if in 8 days he doesn't call for elections , which I guess is the E.U position altogether.
It seems that Maduro has control of the army and I don't how that could change.
Yesterday there were rumors about a meeting Diosdado Cabello-Guaidó
Edit: what 4bars said, I hadn't read it
 
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Sweet Square said:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-call...uncertain-new-course-in-venezuela-11548430259

Guess who's been brought in as a special envoy

https://www.thenation.com/article/a...minal-may-become-our-second-ranking-diplomat/
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I don't think anyone would deny that there's been/will be some form US involvement - there typically is whenever shite hits the fan in Latin America.

But there's been a trend over the past few days wherein people seem to be suggesting this is purely a US orchestrated coup, done against the will of the Venezuelan people who apparently still love Maduro. It's an awful take in that it strips the Venezuelan people of their agency entirely - no, there's not a chance they might actually no longer like Maduro, due to the fact they've been starving and stuff, it's all America's fault instead.

I'd be extremely sceptical as to whether Maduro's successor is going to be any good. Certainly in a lot of countries where corruption has been prevalent you don't lurch from one corrupt President to an entirely clean one all of a sudden. And I don't deny or doubt that the US have been complicit in directly funding and helping an array of brutal fascist regimes in Latin America over the past century purely for their own economic self-advancement and to stop communism, irrespective of the consequences. But at the same time in cases like this the US aren't the sole actors able to dictate the direction of a country on a whim. For their own self-benefit they will obviously support Maduro's opponents now, but Maduro's actual removal - and the anger against him - isn't something that's primarily been orchestrated by the US. He's responsible for that, and anyone on the left should be highlighting the brazen corruption of his and Chavez's governments instead of shifting 100% of the blame onto the US as well.
 
Have to admit, I’m really struggling to fit the tiny amount I know and understand about what’s going on in Venezuela into my preferred ideological straight jacket.
 
2cents said:
Have to admit, I’m really struggling to fit the tiny amount I know and understand about what’s going on in Venezuela into my preferred ideological straight jacket.
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:lol:
 
Cheesy said:
I don't think anyone would deny that there's been/will be some form US involvement - there typically is whenever shite hits the fan in Latin America.

But there's been a trend over the past few days wherein people seem to be suggesting this is purely a US orchestrated coup, done against the will of the Venezuelan people who apparently still love Maduro. It's an awful take in that it strips the Venezuelan people of their agency entirely - no, there's not a chance they might actually no longer like Maduro, due to the fact they've been starving and stuff, it's all America's fault instead.

I'd be extremely sceptical as to whether Maduro's successor is going to be any good. Certainly in a lot of countries where corruption has been prevalent you don't lurch from one corrupt President to an entirely clean one all of a sudden. And I don't deny or doubt that the US have been complicit in directly funding and helping an array of brutal fascist regimes in Latin America over the past century purely for their own economic self-advancement and to stop communism, irrespective of the consequences. But at the same time in cases like this the US aren't the sole actors able to dictate the direction of a country on a whim. For their own self-benefit they will obviously support Maduro's opponents now, but Maduro's actual removal - and the anger against him - isn't something that's primarily been orchestrated by the US. He's responsible for that, and anyone on the left should be highlighting the brazen corruption of his and Chavez's governments instead of shifting 100% of the blame onto the US as well.
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Er....you might want to look at the post I'm replying to and read my post again.
 
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2cents said:
Have to admit, I’m really struggling to fit the tiny amount I know and understand about what’s going on in Venezuela into my preferred ideological straight jacket.
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:lol: Superb. Just so accurately encapsulates the entire conversation in one sentence.

I really struggle to understand people who see literally every single event through the narrow lens of their preferred ideology, without any real appreciation that the world is rarely black and white and that there is so much nuance to events.

Is it really difficult to believe all of 'Maduro is an abysmal dictator, the Venezuelan economy is dropping and Venezuela has now become one of the most dangerous South American countries, that there is a bit of a crisis with Venezuelan migration, that many Venezuelans may want Maduro out......but also that the Americans may be interfering and that an aspect of it may well be the link antihenry posted (if it is true)?

Why can't it be all of the above?
 
africanspur said:
:lol: Superb. Just so accurately encapsulates the entire conversation in one sentence.

I really struggle to understand people who see literally every single event through the narrow lens of their preferred ideology, without any real appreciation that the world is rarely black and white and that there is so much nuance to events.

Is it really difficult to believe all of 'Maduro is an abysmal dictator, the Venezuelan economy is dropping and Venezuela has now become one of the most dangerous South American countries, that there is a bit of a crisis with Venezuelan migration, that many Venezuelans may want Maduro out......but also that the Americans may be interfering and that an aspect of it may well be the link antihenry posted (if it is true)?

Why can't it be all of the above?
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Because we MUST have an opinion and stake out our position. But the day is only so long, there's no way we can read an actual book or two on Venezuelan politics before this crisis fizzles out and the world's attention has moved onto Bahrain/Chad/Azerbaijan/Sri Lanka/wherever. And don't tell me to go talk or listen to some Venezuelans, that would involve obscure names and unknown languages, how can we trust any of them? So who to turn to? Disinterested, concerned statesmen such as Pompeo or Lavrov. Bastions of journalistic integrity like CNN or RT. Noted experts on Latin America like Owen Jones or Brendan O'Neill. We must make do with one or the other of those willing to stick their uninformed neck on the line for the sake of their hot-take, and make sure to double-down when shit gets complicated, knowing that the next crisis is just around the corner and all will soon be forgotten.
 
2cents said:
Because we MUST have an opinion and stake out our position. But the day is only so long, there's no way we can read an actual book or two on Venezuelan politics before this crisis fizzles out and the world's attention has moved onto Bahrain/Chad/Azerbaijan/Sri Lanka/wherever. And don't tell me to go talk or listen to some Venezuelans, that would involve obscure names and unknown languages, how can we trust any of them? So who to turn to? Disinterested, concerned statesmen such as Pompeo or Lavrov. Bastions of journalistic integrity like CNN or RT. Noted experts on Latin America like Owen Jones or Brendan O'Neill. We must make do with one or the other of those willing to stick their uninformed neck on the line for the sake of their hot-take, and make sure to double-down when shit gets complicated, knowing that the next crisis is just around the corner and all will soon be forgotten.
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This is the humble brag version of a hot take.
 
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2cents said:
Because we MUST have an opinion and stake out our position. But the day is only so long, there's no way we can read an actual book or two on Venezuelan politics before this crisis fizzles out and the world's attention has moved onto Bahrain/Chad/Azerbaijan/Sri Lanka/wherever. And don't tell me to go talk or listen to some Venezuelans, that would involve obscure names and unknown languages, how can we trust any of them? So who to turn to? Disinterested, concerned statesmen such as Pompeo or Lavrov. Bastions of journalistic integrity like CNN or RT. Noted experts on Latin America like Owen Jones or Brendan O'Neill. We must make do with one or the other of those willing to stick their uninformed neck on the line for the sake of their hot-take, and make sure to double-down when shit gets complicated, knowing that the next crisis is just around the corner and all will soon be forgotten.
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In the end is a fecked up situation, that will be solved in a fecked up intervention and the ones ill pay will be always the same.
 
What I always liked about John Bolton is that he doesn't even bother to pretend, just says what he's really after.

 
If only there was a way of sanctioning America and forcing them to remove their president ... find it a bit rich for them to be part of a consensus to remove someone else’s ruler (likewise the United Kingdom).
 
I read that the United States has frozen the money of the Venezuelan oil company ,from where they import a million barrels?.
Who buys the oil of a country? Does the government buy it and then distribute it? or is it totally privatized?
Can the United States do without that oil from one day to the next?
If Venezuela have so much oil, why not produce more? infrastructure?
 
Raoul said:
5,000 troopz to Columbia (fam)

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I reckon Colombia is right. They can leverage existing or past agreements that allowed US troops to operate there and keep Venezuelans from starting a mass migration to the promised land. And then invade when the time is right.
 
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