VAR - Not the hero we want, the one we need

[montpelier]

I'm facepalming. You've made me facepalm. Be ashamed of yourself

nearly everything isn't reviewable by VAR. Only goals(ALL GOALS ARE REVIEWED, ALWAYS), penalty shouts, potential red cards, and cases of mistaken identity. That's it.

I like that all goals are reviewed. But I don't always feel that they are getting disallowed purely on the basis of the clear & obvious error.

Thereby making the idea that VAR is only about clear/obvious errors a little bit misleading.

I'm not apocalyptically bothered, honestly. I just thought it was interesting that it has led us in this direction. I've been surprised at the number of goals it manages to disallow.

Us UK people are only seeing 1 game at a time atm really. I was wondering if this was maybe magnifying things for us.

And finally a facepalm, . You've been right in every 'argument' we've ever had I think. Surprised it hasn't happened before.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Refs can do all kinds of nonsense in theory. In reality they won't last for very long if they think they are above rules and guidelines.

Sometimes I wonder if you actually watch football matches, because for example in Bundesliga there is an intervention around every 306 minutes of playtime on average. Which is in stark contrast to the fantasies you keep sharing in this thread. I doubt it's much different in other competitions.

To be fair, those of us who don’t watch foreign leagues with VAR use have only seen it used competitively in last use World Cup and the champions league and it’s been a shit show of an example

 

[montpelier]

Refs can do all kinds of nonsense in theory. In reality they won't last for very long if they think they are above rules and guidelines.

Sometimes I wonder if you actually watch football matches, because for example in Bundesliga there is an intervention around every 306 minutes of playtime on average. Which is in stark contrast to the fantasies you keep sharing in this thread. I doubt it's much different in other competitions.

I hope someone's told our English Premier League idiots this.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

Refs can do all kinds of nonsense in theory. In reality they won't last for very long if they think they are above rules and guidelines.

Sometimes I wonder if you actually watch football matches, because for example in Bundesliga there is an intervention around every 306 minutes of playtime on average. Which is in stark contrast to the fantasies you keep sharing in this thread. I doubt it's much different in other competitions.

Yes you’re correct I don’t watch football- that must be the only reason someone can have a different opinion to you..

I literally turned on the woman’s football & an incredibly soft handball was given through VAR when no one even claimed for it.

I’ve seen plenty of games where VAR has been used at least 5 time’s a game- and those instances will go up with the new handball rule.

Also you don’t count the times where VAR would be used but isn’t as a goal didn’t result from it

 

[Rafaeldagold]

I hope someone's told our English Premier League idiots this.

I’ve just seen stats for La Liga where it says there were 12 reviews on average in a game..& that on average in all leagues it’s 5 reviews a game so not sure how in Germany it could be only 1 review in every 3 games..

 

[do.ob]

Yes you’re correct I don’t watch football- that must be the only reason someone can have a different opinion to you..

I literally turned on the woman’s football & an incredibly soft handball was given through VAR when no one even claimed for it.

I’ve seen plenty of games where VAR has been used at least 5 time’s a game- and those instances will go up with the new handball rule.

Also you don’t count the times where VAR would be used but isn’t as a goal didn’t result from it

I didn't write that just because you disagree with me. I wrote that because you spin some fantasies about multiple interventions per game happening all the time and refs overturning decisions for the fun of it.

I’ve just seen stats for La Liga where it says there were 12 reviews on average in a game..& that on average in all leagues it’s 5 reviews a game so not sure how in Germany it could be only 1 review in every 3 games..

Because reviews are not the same thing as interventions.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

I didn't write that just because you disagree with me. I wrote that because you spin some fantasies about multiple interventions per game happening all the time and refs overturning decisions for the fun of it.




Because reviews are not the same thing as interventions.

Well that was a misleading stat then. For purposes of how often a game is interrupted by VAR (which is what I was stating) you need the review stat.

 

[do.ob]

Well that was a misleading stat then. For purposes of how often a game is interrupted by VAR (which is what I was stating) you need the review stat.

First you were going on about how VAR overturns decisions multiple times per game(?!) now it's just about the time being used reviewing incidents? And the number of reviews per game doesn't really tell you a lot about how much time is used, since a lot of those checks happen in the background while teams are setting up for a corner/goal kick or some guy is rolling on the floor. If you think La Liga refs make 12 reviews on the pitch on average, then we're back to wondering whether you actually watch football.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

First you were going on about how VAR overturns decisions multiple times per game(?!) now it's just about the time being used reviewing incidents? And the number of reviews per game doesn't really tell you a lot about how much time is used, since a lot of those checks happen in the background while teams are setting up for a corner/goal kick or some guy is rolling on the floor. If you think La Liga refs make 12 reviews on the pitch on average, then we're back to wondering whether you actually watch football.

I dont think I ever mentioned interventions- you’ve just made that up.

If you can’t see that VAR Is intrusive to the game & does interrupt a game frequently with multiple reviews (average is 5) then perhaps you don’t watch much football? It’s also not even the time VAR does interrupt a game but also the threat that it can intervene at many points in a game for seemingly innocuous incidents- you can’t be 100% sure of a goal standing now

 

[Spiersey]

Just seen the handball given by VAR in the womans World Cup game. It’s ridiculous as with the new hand ball rule & VAR we’re going to get so many penalties with players just aiming to smack the ball at players hands In the box now

The simple solution is to give indirect free kicks for accidental handballs in the box if the shot isn’t going on target or the cross isn’t going to be tapped in if not for the hand.

 

[Thunderhead]

The simple solution is to give indirect free kicks for accidental handballs in the box if the shot isn’t going on target or the cross isn’t going to be tapped in if not for the hand.

totally agree with this

 

[do.ob]

I dont think I ever mentioned interventions- you’ve just made that up.

If you can’t see that VAR Is intrusive to the game & does interrupt a game frequently with multiple reviews (average is 5) then perhaps you don’t watch much football? It’s also not even the time VAR does interrupt a game but also the threat that it can intervene at many points in a game for seemingly innocuous incidents- you can’t be 100% sure of a goal standing now

Let me quote:
All goals being reviewed for starters will mean you can never truly celebrate as a soft foul could be seen (which look 100x worse in slow mo replays) or a 1mn offside (depending on freeze frame of when ball was played)

Penalty shots..well you can get multiple of those in a game- 10 plus. Especially with hand ball now being pretty much anything they hits your hand- players will just be smashing it at defenders hands now in the box.

I think you underestimate how often VAR will be called into action

The fact that VAR causes some delays isn't exactly breaking news. It has been a consideration from day 1 and it's been discussed plenty.

Though it has to be said that a football match on average has an effective play time of like 60 minutes, that's 30 minutes of interruption per game. Depending on what study you look at VAR takes up about 50-90 seconds on average per game. 30 minutes is fine, but a 4-5% increase kills the game?

Regarding your claims that every little thing will cause VAR to intervene: I can only tell you - again - to look at the actual number of interventions, which is once every few games.

 

[JJ12]

Cost me a ton with that disallowed goal yesterday.

Heap of shit.

 

[Gio]

The simple solution is to give indirect free kicks for accidental handballs in the box if the shot isn’t going on target or the cross isn’t going to be tapped in if not for the hand.

Good call. It's getting to the point where there is such a mismatch between the new hardline rule and what fans, players, etc feel to be the spirit of the law. In the past refs would use their common sense and consider how much advantage was gained from an unintended handball, and generally we avoided controversy because everybody had a similar and shared understanding of the application of the rules.

I don't understand why the indirect free-kick has disappeared out of the game as it could be used multiple times a game under the current rules. IT would be an obvious solution to many of the grey calls around obstruction and dangerous play and could be extended to cover handballs where intent and advantage are minimal.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

Let me quote:
All goals being reviewed for starters will mean you can never truly celebrate as a soft foul could be seen (which look 100x worse in slow mo replays) or a 1mn offside (depending on freeze frame of when ball was played)

Penalty shots..well you can get multiple of those in a game- 10 plus. Especially with hand ball now being pretty much anything they hits your hand- players will just be smashing it at defenders hands now in the box.

I think you underestimate how often VAR will be called into action

The fact that VAR causes some delays isn't exactly breaking news. It has been a consideration from day 1 and it's been discussed plenty.

Though it has to be said that a football match on average has an effective play time of like 60 minutes, that's 30 minutes of interruption per game. Depending on what study you look at VAR takes up about 50-90 seconds on average per game. 30 minutes is fine, but a 4-5% increase kills the game?

Regarding your claims that every little thing will cause VAR to intervene: I can only tell you - again - to look at the actual number of interventions, which is once every few games.

The fact it isn’t breaking news that VAR is time consuming doesn’t give you a free pass on that downside of if.

Yes there are only 60 mins effective playing time so how does making it worse with VAR mean that’s a plus for VAR?

Again you miss the point- it doesn’t matter if VAR intervenes or not- it can still get reviewed & the ref doesn’t agree with it, that’s still time being taken out.

And there’s on average 5 per game currently- that will probably increase with the new handball rule

 

[do.ob]

The fact it isn’t breaking news that VAR is time consuming doesn’t give you a free pass on that downside of if.

Yes there are only 60 mins effective playing time so how does making it worse with VAR mean that’s a plus for VAR?

Again you miss the point- it doesn’t matter if VAR intervenes or not- it can still get reviewed & the ref doesn’t agree with it, that’s still time being taken out.

And there’s on average 5 per game currently- that will probably increase with the new handball rule

Delays are a valid concern, I'm just highlighting the fact that the actual delays caused by VAR make up a tiny fraction of the interruption a game suffers.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Does anyone think that the use of VAR so far has reduced the number of incidents of games being marred by controversial/debatable decisions?

I don't know the answer to that question but I'm willing to bet that - even if the answer is a definite yes - it hasn't reduced them by much. Then we have the fact that if a ref/assistant ref made a mistake in the past, you could get over it pretty quickly because football fans generally accept that humans are flawed and mistakes will happen (apart from a tiny minority of absolute muppets who screech about refereeing conspiracies) Now that we've introduced VAR, people can reasonably expect infallible officiation. What we're getting is so far fecking short of infallible it's laughable.

And the cost we're paying for this fudged solution to a "problem" most football fans weren't too bothered about? A whole new raft of interruptions to the flow of a game, typically occurring during the most exciting/interesting periods of play. What a load of bollox this has been. An entirely predictable load of bollox too.

 

[do.ob]

Does anyone think that the use of VAR so far has reduced the number of incidents of games being marred by controversial/debatable decisions?

I don't know the answer to that question but I'm willing to bet that - even if the answer is a definite yes - it hasn't reduced them by much. Then we have the fact that if a ref/assistant ref made a mistake in the past, you could get over it pretty quickly because football fans generally accept that humans are flawed and mistakes will happen (apart from a tiny minority of absolute muppets who screech about refereeing conspiracies) Now that we've introduced VAR, people can reasonably expect infallible officiation. What we're getting is so far fecking short of infallible it's laughable.

And the cost we're paying for this fudged solution to a "problem" most football fans weren't too bothered about? A whole new raft of interruptions to the flow of a game, typically occurring during the most exciting/interesting periods of play. What a load of bollox this has been. An entirely predictable load of bollox too.

I'm not sure fans of teams which got relegated/missed a competition or a title because refereeing mistakes really were indifferent.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

I'm not sure fans of teams which got relegated/missed a competition or a title because refereeing mistakes really were indifferent.

If you leave relegation to a ref missing something then hard luck to be honest. Same if an opposing team scores when technically offside by 1mm.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I'm not sure fans of teams which got relegated/missed a competition or a title because refereeing mistakes really were indifferent.

Well I still remember Drogba scoring a crucial goal against United while clearly offside. That annoyed me far less than the annoyance England fans must have felt last night, when their goal was put under additional scrutiny after the fact. I mean, I was pissed off we conceded but I didn’t think it was anything other than an honest mistake. Shit happens. Most reasonable people accept human error and it’s been part and parcel of the game for hundreds of years.

What is much harder to accept is the excruciating delays and inconsistencies that VAR has recently introduced to the game.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

Well I still remember Drogba scoring a crucial goal against United while clearly offside. That annoyed me far less than the annoyance England fans must have felt last night, when their goal was put under additional scrutiny after the fact. I mean, I was pissed off we conceded but I didn’t think it was anything other than an honest mistake. Shit happens. Most reasonable people accept human error and it’s been part and parcel of the game for hundreds of years.

What is much harder to accept is the excruciating delays and inconsistencies that VAR has recently introduced to the game.

Pretty much this- VAR just isn’t worth it if you add up all the pros & cons.

It’s been implemented just because we can & the incessant moaning of managers blaming every bad result on a refs decision

 

[cyberman]

Well I still remember Drogba scoring a crucial goal against United while clearly offside. That annoyed me far less than the annoyance England fans must have felt last night, when their goal was put under additional scrutiny after the fact. I mean, I was pissed off we conceded but I didn’t think it was anything other than an honest mistake. Shit happens. Most reasonable people accept human error and it’s been part and parcel of the game for hundreds of years.

What is much harder to accept is the excruciating delays and inconsistencies that VAR has recently introduced to the game.

Would you feel the same way if we were in Liverpool's position this year and that happened to us? Nearly 30 years without a title and we lose it by a goal like that?
I honestly think the slight delay will bring incredible drama in itself. Its not like we would be sitting there twiddling our thumbs and its not as if every goal demands so much time for analysis.

 

[MattyB1986]

Defenders will be diving with the slightest touch now!!

 

[SadlerMUFC]

But how much is clear daylight? 5cm? What about if someone only has 4cm of daylight as seen by var?

There’s always going to be some degree of discussion over the supposed line that’s drawn. By introducing even more nuance into it you’re just further complicating the issue.

Clear daylight is clear daylight whether it's 1/2 a cm or 3 feet. Either way, I would rather have a goal allowed because he was 1/2 a cm onside, then to have a goal called off because he wsa 1/2 a cm offside.

 

[do.ob]

If you leave relegation to a ref missing something then hard luck to be honest. Same if an opposing team scores when technically offside by 1mm.

Yeah.. those relegation teams.. feck them. And lets just ignore knockout fixtures, because..

 

[SadlerMUFC]

The decision was fine. It was a clear foul.

No idea how it took them quite so long to come to that conclusion though. Should’ve taken thirty seconds max to wipe off.

I just don't like the fact that they can go back as far as they want to make their decision. For example, you will be able to find a foul on pretty much every corner kick if you look hard enough...

 

[do.ob]

I just don't like the fact that they can go back as far as they want to make their decision. For example, you will be able to find a foul on pretty much every corner kick if you look hard enough...

They can go as far as the last interruption of play and they don't actually go on fishing expeditions as is obvious by the fact you only get less than one intervention per match.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

Yeah.. those relegation teams.. feck them. And lets just ignore knockout fixtures, because..

How did you ever survive without VAR? It’s a game to be enjoyed- VAR will slowly but surely make the game more & more unwatchable & taking away the free flowing element which marks football apart from other sports

 

[SadlerMUFC]

They can go as far as the last interruption of play and they don't actually go on fishing expeditions as is obvious by the fact you only get less than one intervention per match.

If they are looking at every goal to make sure it's good then they can and will likely find something if a team scores from a set play...

 

[Rafaeldagold]

They can go as far as the last interruption of play and they don't actually go on fishing expeditions as is obvious by the fact you only get less than one intervention per match.

The lat interruption can be a long time back- such as in Ajax Madrid game where they checked for 5 mins in case ball went out of play by 1mm by the halfway line- This is the future of football & checking every minute detail to disallow a goal

 

[do.ob]

If they are looking at every goal to make sure it's good then they can and will likely find something if a team scores from a set play...

The lat interruption can be a long time back- such as in Ajax Madrid game where they checked for 5 mins in case ball went out of play by 1mm by the halfway line- This is the future of football & checking every minute detail to disallow a goal

How do those statements fit into the reality of VAR only intervening every 3.x games?

 

[SadlerMUFC]

How do those statements fit into the reality of VAR only intervening every 3.x games?

They are only looking 3 times per game? I thought they were checking out every goal???

 

[do.ob]

They are only looking 3 times per game? I thought they were checking out every goal???

They are checking every relevant situation, but they only change decisions every couple of games. If "they can and will likely find something if a team scores from a set play" were true the rate of intervention would be much higher.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

How do those statements fit into the reality of VAR only intervening every 3.x games?

My statement is also a reality - & you keep using this intervening stat which doesn’t tell the whole story - the main stat is on average there is a VAR review 5 times a game

 

[Rafaeldagold]

Wait, what's the difference between a VAR 'review' and VAR 'check?

This is important. Most 'checks' take place 'in the background' and have no impact on the game (or the referee), but in some cases the referee has to delay the restart of the game for the VAR to complete a 'check'. So when the crowd are jeering the referee for taking time over an incident, it is often the VAR deliberating.

So even non interventions from your favourite stat still interrupt the game

 

[do.ob]

Wait, what's the difference between a VAR 'review' and VAR 'check?

This is important. Most 'checks' take place 'in the background' and have no impact on the game (or the referee), but in some cases the referee has to delay the restart of the game for the VAR to complete a 'check'. So when the crowd are jeering the referee for taking time over an incident, it is often the VAR deliberating.

So even non interventions from your favourite stat still interrupt the game

I already mentioned that the average delay caused by VAR is between 50 and 90 seconds per match, depending on the source.

 

[Sassy Colin]

These people I hear complaining about VAR ruining the game because it gets the decision right.

They would rather the decisions were wrong, would they?

 

[Rafaeldagold]

These people I hear complaining about VAR ruining the game because it gets the decision right.

They would rather the decisions were wrong, would they?

If it ruins the enjoyment of the game then yes..

Football is such a subjective sport- If you want accuracy all the time surely you advocate rewatching every passage of play/throw in/corner/tackle/goal kick to make sure we have correct decisions?

 

[711]

These people I hear complaining about VAR ruining the game because it gets the decision right.

They would rather the decisions were wrong, would they?

I haven't read one post saying that. You're not helping your cause with that one.

 

[Sassy Colin]

I haven't read one post saying that. You're not helping your cause with that one.

How about the one directly below yours? 5,319 posts and not 1 single descenter, until this guy ^

It was on the radio regarding the England game. There was some sort of poll saying that the disallowed goal in the 2nd game should have been allowed, even though VAR said it should have been disallowed.

btw, I don't have a 'cause'.

If it ruins the enjoyment of the game then yes..

Football is such a subjective sport- If you want accuracy all the time surely you advocate rewatching every passage of play/throw in/corner/tackle/goal kick to make sure we have correct decisions?

What the hell are you on about? Don't be ridiculous

Does it ruin tennis or cricket? Of course not, I would rather have the correct decision than rely 100% on an idiot ref, then there can be no complaints. Doesn't stop people crying about it though, does it.