Uno Draft: Round 1 - willhse456 vs Himannv

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Keepers are given lesser credit rightly so because in a quality team, they are usually the least important players. Some exceptions would be Pep systems.

Howard being seen as a weakness is a classic Caf draft argument. It always the extremes.

1. Either we won't rate keepers at all
2. Or we will only rate the players who were the best 3 in the world at some point of time.

News flash, Tim Howard was a pretty good goalkeeper although never being top 3 in the world.

Weakness would be someone not suited for the role or too low on quality. Howard is neither of those.

Having Yashin is an advantage. Having Howard is not a weakness. Let's put it that way.

 

[willhse456]

Yeah, that back five thing has to change, what a weird pair of wingbacks. Which version of Schuster is it, @willhse456?

As said earlier, an experiment that hasn't paid off unfortunately, although I think it isn't as bad as everyone is making it out to be. Sure they'll be slightly more defensive, but the centre of my team is just too much for the opposition to deal with.

With Schuster I wanted a real link from defence to attack, I picked him for his vision and his passing, and the ability to hold on to the ball. Whilst maybe not as far forward as he usually plays, I think the role would suit him, especially as the majority of the time I will have 3 v 2 in midfield.

 

[willhse456]

@green_smiley what happened for you to completely go back on your statement in the main thread a couple of days ago

 

[Zlatan 7]

@GodShaveTheQueen Of course having Howard is a weakness.

I disagree with you.

In a match, if you have the best crossers of the ball, the best headers, the most clinical finishers then of course, with the choice of over 7 decades of football you’re going to want one of the best keepers of this time frame.

Tim Howard, really?

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Deserves a more detailed answer. I will take some time out tomorrow. It's Pubg time now.

Alright, here's my take.

1. You can't build a false 9 system in a 3-5-2. For a false 9 to work, you need to be able to have lots of versatile players in numbers to give the false 9 positional freedom. If Baggio drops deep, you need to have a Stoichkov or Kalle to make those runs. Kaka and Kopa are not that kind of players. Kaka maybe can to an extent but still not my favorite in this setup. (In a 4-2-3-1 false 9 setup with Baggio though, I'd love Kaka)

2. Take Kaka next. His best came with two forwards ahead of him who were willing to work off the ball and drag defenders apart so that Kaka would have space to run into and burn his pace. Who would do that here? Not Baggio, not Kopa.

3. Finally Kopa. A classic playmaker and creator. Would constantly expect a No. 9 to be ready for him to thread passes too. Baggio is not going to be that constant presence.

The three of them can probably be used in a similar formation, but with different players. Together, they don't look coherent at all to me.

That was the main reason I went for will despite his really big wingback's problem.

 

[Himannv]

Keepers are given lesser credit rightly so because in a quality team, they are usually the least important players.

David de Gea has won United so many points over the last few years. As a United supporter, would you really bench him for a much lesser keeper and expect the results to be the same?

I'd understand if Tim Howard was a slight downgrade on Yashin, but that's not the case here. For me the gulf is far too large. I'll back any of my front three Ballon D'Or winners to score against Tim Howard. I think you underestimate keepers vastly if you think it would be just as easy to score against probably the best goalkeeper in the history of the game.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Alright, here's my take.

1. You can't build a false 9 system in a 3-5-2. For a false 9 to work, you need to be able to have lots of versatile players in numbers to give the false 9 positional freedom. If Baggio drops deep, you need to have a Stoichkov or Kalle to make those runs. Kaka and Kopa are not that kind of players. Kaka maybe can to an extent but still not my favorite in this setup. (In a 4-2-3-1 false 9 setup with Baggio though, I'd love Kaka)

2. Take Kaka next. His best came with two forwards ahead of him who were willing to work off the ball and drag defenders apart so that Kaka would have space to run into and burn his pace. Who would do that here? Not Baggio, not Kopa.

3. Finally Kopa. A classic playmaker and creator. Would constantly expect a No. 9 to be ready for him to thread passes too. Baggio is not going to be that constant presence.

The three of them can probably be used in a similar formation, but with different players. Together, they don't look coherent at all to me.

That was the main reason I went for will despite his really big wingback's problem.

Good take on it

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

@GodShaveTheQueen Of course having Howard is a weakness.

I disagree with you.

In a match, if you have the best crossers of the ball, the best headers, the most clinical finishers then of course, with the choice of over 7 decades of football you’re going to want one of the best keepers of this time frame.

Tim Howard, really?

So you are saying Howard constantly committed blunders? I am sure the Everton version is used here. How often do you think he made blunders? An average per season? He was a pretty solid goalkeeper from my memory. Definitely top 5 in most seasons in the PL.

You make it sound way worse than he actually is.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

David de Gea has won United so many points over the last few years.

Keepers are given lesser credit rightly so because in a quality team, they are usually the least important players

Do you think De Gea was in quality teams? Put him in Madrid in those UCL years and he would not get all the plaudits he gets now.

 

[Zlatan 7]

So you are saying Howard constantly committed blunders. I am sure the Everyone version is used here. How often do you think he made blunders? An average per season? He was a pretty solid goalkeeper from my memory. Definitely top 5 in most seasons in the PL.

You make it sound way worse than he actually is.

I didn’t say he made blunders, and I’ve already said he was a decent keeper.

We’re talking all time in these drafts mind, up against players such as Romario, ronaldo, Van Basten, clinical finishers. If this was a real life game I’d certainly want more than Tim Howard in goals, in fact, any team aiming to win the league, champions league, whatever, would want more than Tim Howard in goals I’m sure.

 

[Zlatan 7]

I’m sticking to my guns on this, in a newb draft I was laughed at for picking Nev Southall as it was all time draft. Tim Howard wouldn’t lace his boots.

We need consistency in these drafts, to have all those players and then see Howard in goals (Banks on the bench) just doesn’t feel right.

And for will to pick two keepers and keep banks on the bench goes to show that keepers are more or less meaningless in these drafts.

 

[2mufc0]

Keepers are given lesser credit rightly so because in a quality team, they are usually the least important players. Some exceptions would be Pep systems.

Howard being seen as a weakness is a classic Caf draft argument. It always the extremes.

1. Either we won't rate keepers at all
2. Or we will only rate the players who were the best 3 in the world at some point of time.

News flash, Tim Howard was a pretty good goalkeeper although never being top 3 in the world.

Weakness would be someone not suited for the role or too low on quality. Howard is neither of those.

Having Yashin is an advantage. Having Howard is not a weakness. Let's put it that way.

For me in such a close game the quality in GK should matter, Yashin is much likelier to make those 2/3 match winning saves to win a tight game.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

For me in such a close game the quality in GK should matter, Yashin is much likelier to make those 2/3 match winning saves to win a tight game.

You are right it should matter. Having Yashin should be an advantage. My point is having Howard should not be considered a weakness. He was a more than decent goalkeeper who although unlikely to put in a man of the match performance here, should still do alright with the defense ahead of him. Looked like a dismissive attitude towards him which I didn't feel was right at all.

 

[2mufc0]

You are right it should matter. Having Yashin should be an advantage. My point is having Howard should not be considered a weakness. He was a more than decent goalkeeper who although unlikely to put in a man of the match performance here, should still do alright with the defense ahead of him. Looked like a dismissive attitude towards him which I didn't feel was right at all.

No he shouldn’t be completely ruled out I agree, but the issue shouldn’t be dismissed either.

 

[MJJ]

You are right it should matter. Having Yashin should be an advantage. My point is having Howard should not be considered a weakness. He was a more than decent goalkeeper who although unlikely to put in a man of the match performance here, should still do alright with the defense ahead of him. Looked like a dismissive attitude towards him which I didn't feel was right at all.

Look at pool with karius who was another decent keeper or even Ben foster for us. Some keepers are decent at a low level but make uncharacteristic mistakes at the top level.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Look at pool with karius who was another decent keeper or even Ben foster for us. Some keepers are decent at a low level but make uncharacteristic mistakes at the top level.

Karius and Foster are nowhere near Howard's level. This is what I mean. Howard was not that bad. I had watched a lot of Everton back in my college days as one of my friends was an Everton fan and I have never rated him this badly

 

[Himannv]

Do you think De Gea was in quality teams? Put him in Madrid in those UCL years and he would not get all the plaudits he gets now.

A great keeper is a great keeper regardless of the team around him, and that's the case with all GOAT keepers. For me, Yashin is at a different level and is probably the best in the history of the game. I'm sorry, but beating him will be a lot harder than it will be to beat Howard. I get that you rate Howard, but Yashin is simply the best in this discipline so it's just on a different level for me.

 

[MJJ]

Karius and Foster are nowhere near Howard's level. This is what I mean. Howard was not that bad. I had watched a lot of Everton back in my college days as one of my friends was an Everton fan and I have never rated him this badly

If either of those played for Everton, they would be seen at the same level. This was a guy who couldnt displace carrol at United.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I'm sorry, but beating him will be a lot harder than it will be to beat Howard. I get that you rate Howard, but Yashin is simply the best in this discipline so it's just on a different level for me.

I don't disagree with that one bit.

 

[willhse456]

David de Gea has won United so many points over the last few years. As a United supporter, would you really bench him for a much lesser keeper and expect the results to be the same?

I'd understand if Tim Howard was a slight downgrade on Yashin, but that's not the case here. For me the gulf is far too large. I'll back any of my front three Ballon D'Or winners to score against Tim Howard. I think you underestimate keepers vastly if you think it would be just as easy to score against probably the best goalkeeper in the history of the game.

This is only true because he has Phil Jones and Smalling ahead of him most of the time, whereas Howard has Baresi and Chumpitaz...

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

If either of those played for Everton, they would be seen at the same level. This was a guy who couldnt displace carrol at United.

His United stint was a shambles. It's the Everton version here I am sure.

Should I rate the 1974 version of Jairzinho in your match rather than the 1970 one?

 

[MJJ]

His United stint was a shambles. It's the Everton version here I am sure.

Should I rate the 1974 version of Jairzinho in your match rather than the 1970 one?

The second vid is from the Everton version. I also remember him punching a player becaused he challenged him while he was gathering the ball.

That would be a valid comparison if 1974 was the only time jairzinho competed at the top level and could give us an insight into his mentality.

 

[Zlatan 7]

@MJJ made a good point about the level, a keeper can look sound at a certain level until the pressure is on. Howard hasn’t proved himself in this regard.
I’d even question DDG, it seems whenever he’s playing in a higher level match he’s on edge , champions league, World Cup. These things should be taken into account. My initial point was that keepers never seem to be questioned in these drafts and that should change.

 

[willhse456]

Look at pool with karius who was another decent keeper or even Ben foster for us. Some keepers are decent at a low level but make uncharacteristic mistakes at the top level.

Firstly, Yashin is better no denying that, but they're not directly up against each other. You have to look at it as a defensive unit and I still think my defensive unit is better. Also, Howard made 16 saves in a World Cup knockout match, surely the top level doesn't get much higher than the World Cup?

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

The second vid is from the Everton version. I also remember him punching a player becaused he challenged him while he was gathering the ball.

That would be a valid comparison if 1974 was the only time jairzinho competed at the top level and could give us an insight into his mentality.

Okay, I'll give you that. Howard made a blunder in a Everton shirt. Good goalkeepers don't do that in their careers.

 

[willhse456]

Anyway, Himannv has pulled a blinder in getting everyone focused on my weaknesses whilst avoiding his muddled attacking setup, and how Mackay is meant to be stopping one of the greatest attacking midfielders of all time

 

[MJJ]

Okay, I'll give you that. Howard made a blunder in a Everton shirt. Good goalkeepers don't do that in their careers.

okay gstq, if that's what you think my point boils down to.

Firstly, Yashin is better no denying that, but they're not directly up against each other. You have to look at it as a defensive unit and I still think my defensive unit is better. Also, Howard made 16 saves in a World Cup knockout match, surely the top level doesn't get much higher than the World Cup?

That's a fair point.

 

[green_smiley]

@green_smiley what happened for you to completely go back on your statement in the main thread a couple of days ago

Might have gotten my vote if you had a back four. You don't have proper wingbacks

 

[Himannv]

Alright, here's my take.

1. You can't build a false 9 system in a 3-5-2. For a false 9 to work, you need to be able to have lots of versatile players in numbers to give the false 9 positional freedom. If Baggio drops deep, you need to have a Stoichkov or Kalle to make those runs. Kaka and Kopa are not that kind of players. Kaka maybe can to an extent but still not my favorite in this setup. (In a 4-2-3-1 false 9 setup with Baggio though, I'd love Kaka)

2. Take Kaka next. His best came with two forwards ahead of him who were willing to work off the ball and drag defenders apart so that Kaka would have space to run into and burn his pace. Who would do that here? Not Baggio, not Kopa.

3. Finally Kopa. A classic playmaker and creator. Would constantly expect a No. 9 to be ready for him to thread passes too. Baggio is not going to be that constant presence.

The three of them can probably be used in a similar formation, but with different players. Together, they don't look coherent at all to me.

That was the main reason I went for will despite his really big wingback's problem.

I get your concerns, but I do believe that Kaka and Baggio will work together quite well. As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, I see it working a bit similar to how the Liverpool trio work. When Baggio drops deeper, Kaka simply moves ahead into the space created. They're both smart enough to make it work and Kaka has certainly played that role to good effect as a second striker.

One of the best things about Baggio is his versatility in my view. If you look through a video like the following of his goals, you'd see that he just scores all types. There are some with him bursting in from the left and dribbling his way through, some long range strikes, some where he's the player furthest forward and getting on the end of a pass. Baggio can do it all, mate.

 

[Jim Beam]

Alright, here's my take.

1. You can't build a false 9 system in a 3-5-2. For a false 9 to work, you need to be able to have lots of versatile players in numbers to give the false 9 positional freedom. If Baggio drops deep, you need to have a Stoichkov or Kalle to make those runs. Kaka and Kopa are not that kind of players. Kaka maybe can to an extent but still not my favorite in this setup. (In a 4-2-3-1 false 9 setup with Baggio though, I'd love Kaka)

Tbf, this is more 3-4-2-1. And if Sterling could play it pretty well, don't see much problems with Baggio.
Belgium also played it with Hazard/De Bruyne behind Lukaku.

It does seem unbalanced at first glance and maybe someone more direct instead of Kopa would be better, but I can see it work.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

It does seem unbalanced at first glance and maybe someone more direct instead of Kopa would be better, but I can see it work.

Yea Kalle instead of Kopa or Henry instead of Kaka would have sealed my vote for Himannv

 

[willhse456]

Well, that was a lot closer than I wanted it to be! Genuinely didn't know which way it was going to swing at points.

I think you were a bit unlucky @Himannv , and I tend to agree with you about goalkeepers here, but I guess there's a reason why the seasoned drafters tend to pick goalkeepers last.

I'm a big fan of the substitutes have to play in the second round, as it introduces a big tactical element into it. After leaving Alaba/Hazard on the bench last time, I wanted to get Puyol and Howard out of the way, but it almost blew up in my face.

I promise I won't play Nilton and Thuram as wingbacks again after the reaction it has received in this thread

 

[Himannv]

Congratz @willhse456

Your team was the last one I wanted to face. You had such a great squad and the Baresi draw 4 pick was icing on the cake really. I was totally planning to play Nkono in goal but I felt I had to play my best team to beat you here.

I totally expected a back 4 and I felt I had a chance once you used Nilton and Thuram as wingbacks. However, even that didn't seem to sway voters and even Yashin vs Howard didn't change things.

Good luck with the rest of the draft!

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

I think having a good gap in keeper quality can make a big difference when the margins of overall team are thin, the same as any other position in the spine of a side. I mean if we had Yashin(or Dasaev) in the '90s then without changing anything else(and there were certainly other things worth changing) you are already looking at a good chance of big results that defined an era for the team changing like Euro 96 groupstage exit, playoff loss to Italy for '98 and topping the Euro 2000 qualifying group ahead of France instead of crashing out. Key goalkeeping errors or just being up against a much better one were all quite decisive there and i'm sure other countries/clubs can think of various examples like that too.

Howard of course was a good, solid keeper most of the time, but in games like this with great and all-time great players in nearly every position you definitely have to consider him potentially being a relative weak point.

 

[Ecstatic]

@Himannv

Sorry to have voted for you.

Despite all my lobbying to promote Kopa and Kaká here, I would have preferred a striker/forward who attacks the space instead of Baggio.

I don't say it is required to have the clone of Schvechenko/Inzaghi/Crespo or Fontaine/Puskas: any upgrade of Aubameyang!

That said, I can always for an unorthodox team but have to say you are unlucky to play another big favourite.

 

[Ecstatic]

I think having a good gap in keeper quality can make a big difference when the margins of overall team are thin, the same as any other position in the spine of a side. I mean if we had Yashin(or Dasaev) in the '90s then without changing anything else(and there were certainly other things worth changing) you are already looking at a good chance of big results that defined an era for the team changing like Euro 96 groupstage exit, playoff loss to Italy for '98 and topping the Euro 2000 qualifying group ahead of France instead of crashing out. Key goalkeeping errors or just being up against a much better one were all quite decisive there and i'm sure other countries/clubs can think of various examples like that too.

Howard of course was a good, solid keeper most of the time, but in games like this with great and all-time great players in nearly every position you definitely have to consider him potentially being a relative weak point.

Good post as usual

Completely forgotten the gap in quality between the goalkeepers.

Otherwise, I wouldn't have voted.

 

[Himannv]

Despite all my lobbying to promote Kopa and Kaká here, I would have preferred a striker/forward who attacks the space instead of Baggio.

Oh, I agree. Despite all my lobbying, I really wanted a proper striker here. I just didn't get the chance and decided to use my last pick to take Yashin, who almost turned the tide for me here to be fair to him. I had a feeling there would be teams who didn't go with their first choice keeper in R1 so it almost paid off. Kaka was never in my plans initially, it just came down to the type of cards I got at particular times. I just hoped I would get a draw 4 at some point that enabled me to pick someone like MvB.