United's Pressing (Copied from newbies)

[Pogue Mahone]

But there is another very interesting implication in those stats. It seems the better our pressing got, less PPDA, the more likely we were to draw or lose.

It's even worse for Arsenal for whom pressing seems to be some kind of short cut to losing a game. Or it simply means that they are vulnerable to teams which like to hoof the ball.

I think you've got that completely back to front. The lower the number the more aggressive the pressing.

Most teams seem to respond to going behind (i.e. being in a losing "game state") by working harder and allowing the opposition less time on the ball (apart from QPR, for whom the opposite is true - well done Arry!) For Arsenal this increase in work-rate is much more dramatic than anyone else. Read into that what you will.

 

[NoLogo]

They were great at it, indeed. But that tactic is probably best suited to a counter attacking team, versus a possession based system? Obviously in both systems, you'll be able to exploit it, but it's probably a more regular situation for a direct counter attacking team.

Nah actually the ones who made pressing en vague again in the modern game were Barca. But quick transitions are very much part of pressing. It's of little use to press, win the ball back and then just pass it back into your half. I also never saw Dortmund as a counter attacking team, they were an attacking team, they tried to win the ball back as fast as possible and create scoring chances as fast as possible.

But I have talked about this before in a thread with someone, fast football and possession isn't something that's mutually exclusive. Barca under Pep in his first 3 years was great with those quick transitions and still kept 70% possession with a passing success rate of around 90%. Bayern under Heynckes were great at this as well, if the space was there because they caught their opponent in transition they would make the game fast and if not they would retain the ball and go for a more measured build up. City atm plays a fairly similar style and Dortmund under Tuchel seems to have added the measure of control to their game they were lacking before but they are still capable of making the game fast.

I also think that the end of van Gaal's process is aiming for very similar football like what I have mentioned above. The current slowness of our possession game is mostly down to a squad who isn't fully gelled yet and maybe lacks a bit of talent to pull it off.

 

[NoLogo]

Teams press more when they're drawing or losing than when they're winning

Very good point haven't thought of it but now that you mentioned it, it seems fairly obvious.

 

[NoLogo]

I think you've got that completely back to front. The lower the number the more aggressive the pressing.

Most teams seem to respond to going behind (i.e. being in a losing "game state") by working harder and allowing the opposition less time on the ball (apart from QPR, for whom the opposite is true - well done Arry!) For Arsenal this increase in work-rate is much more dramatic than anyone else. Read into that what you will.

Yeah like I said to ctp didn't occur to me when I wrote my post but you guys are of course right, makes absolutely sense.

 

[waza7111]

This is something I've noticed since van Gaal became manager. When the opposition defenders have the ball as many as 4 united players are near them and this was not seen before.

 

[Ish]

I also think that the end of van Gaal's process is aiming for very similar football like what I have mentioned above. The current slowness of our possession game is mostly down to a squad who isn't fully gelled yet and maybe lacks a bit of talent to pull it off.

Yeah, agreed. I think as everyone gels a bit more & others pick up a bit of form, we'll start moving the ball a bit better. Having someone like Herrera helps of course. Pass and move. It would obviously do us a world of good as well, if we could add an additional pacey outlet on the right, who could beat a man. It would open up even more space for the rest of the team.

I don't think the way a team behaves when in possession needs to be linked to what they do when the other team has the ball. The way Van Gaal bangs on about the four "phases" makes me think he sees them as distinct too.

Yep, I'd say you are correct. I'd guess the only difference in "possession vs counter attack" would be the frequency of "turnovers".

 

[NoLogo]

I don't think the way a team behaves when in possession needs to be linked to what they do when the other team has the ball. The way Van Gaal bangs on about the four "phases" makes me think he sees them as distinct too.

Absolutely true. The four phases are basically Attack and Defending phase and the transitions in-between from attack to defence and from defence to attack. There are different ways to approach these four phases and every manager/coach has most likely their very own idea on what works best in anyone of these four phases.

 

[bugmat]

Pressing is a very multifaceted thing to try and measure with a single statistic, but you can clearly see that we're doing it consistently and well on the pitch. I don't think it's particularly extreme - less full-on than 2009-11 Barca, or Bielsa's man-for-man Bilbao system, or Klopp's Dortmund - but it's exactly at the level I'd want, really. It's also nice to see that LVG is willing to adjust the press threshold to the opponent. We're allowing some opponents to have it three men from the back, some we're going for all over the pitch, some we're not really harrying until they start a proper attacking move.

People immediately forget about problems and weaknesses once they're solved, which is only natural. But if you compare us now to how we were under Moyes and in Fergie's last couple of seasons, we are playing dramatically better football. Right now we're worried that we don't have enough top-level strikers, or that the tempo of our passing isn't always quite fast enough. I remember when we were complaining that our central midfield was practically non-existent, or that we were completely incapable of keeping possession of the football even against the PL's weakest teams. We would let any opponent back us right into our box before anyone even tried to apply pressure or make a tackle. There were times when it looked like we were playing football that was ten years out of date. We've already come a really long way under Van Gaal.

That was horrible and started in Fergie's last 2 years. I like what we do now off the ball..I only wished we were as effective on it as we were at times under Fergie but it's coming slowly.

 

[Momochiru]

I think you've got that completely back to front. The lower the number the more aggressive the pressing.

Most teams seem to respond to going behind (i.e. being in a losing "game state") by working harder and allowing the opposition less time on the ball (apart from QPR, for whom the opposite is true - well done Arry!) For Arsenal this increase in work-rate is much more dramatic than anyone else. Read into that what you will.

Actually there are 4 teams not respousing adequately to going behind - QPR, Burney, Leicester and Aston_Villa - all either relegated or fighting relegation. Shows how important the fighting spirit is.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Actually there are 4 teams not respousing adequately to going behind - QPR, Burney, Leicester and Aston_Villa - all either relegated or fighting relegation. Shows how important the fighting spirit is.

Yeah, that stat does seem like an interesting metric for fighting spirit.

 

[devilish]

Just coming back to this. I remember when we were having our arses handed to us by Bilbao, when Fergie was still in charge, there was a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth about why we can't press the opposition in the same way. This went as far as people suggesting maybe we needed a new manager, who could implement this more modern approach to football. Klopp and Bielsa being the obvious examples.

Well, it looks as though we've got what we wanted. So far this season, our aggressive pressing has been a real feature. The beauty of this approach means a turnover can allow us to attack against a backline that is unprepared and out of position. Which is something we rarely do when we're going through one of those long spells of knocking it around between our midfield and defence. Van Gaal talks about all the different phases of the game and I'm starting to see what he's on about. In a weird way, our most devastating attacks can start when the opposition have the ball. It was how we scored our only PL goal so far this season and I think/hope we'll see more and more goals scored like this as the season goes on.

So yeah, pressing. We're doing it and doing it well.

You mean that game when our midfielders ended up like those dogs running after the ball in the park, as Herrera and co literally humiliated us? Those games still send shivers in my spine. I mean, its one thing getting humiliated repeatedly by Barcelona. However you expect us to do better against frigging Bilbao

On a serious note its true that we're pressing teams more however we're doing at a very low tempo and little creativity. Under such circumstances we're allowing teams to organize themselves and throw 9 players, the manager, all coaches, the fans and the kitchen sink at the back making it impossible for us to score. Bottom line of the story pressing = good but we need to move the ball quicker

 

[NoLogo]

You mean that game when our midfielders ended up like those dogs running after the ball in the park, as Herrera and co literally humiliated us? Those games still send shivers in my spine. I mean, its one thing getting humiliated repeatedly by Barcelona. However you expect us to do better against frigging Bilbao

On a serious note its true that we're pressing teams more however we're doing at a very low tempo and little creativity. Under such circumstances we're allowing teams to organize themselves and throw 9 players, the manager, all coaches, the fans and the kitchen sink at the back making it impossible for us to score. Bottom line of the story pressing = good but we need to move the ball quicker

Well that's another phase of play that you are talking about. Transition from defending to attacking. Currently it looks like we are most concerned with keeping the ball which means the team often transitions too slow after winning the ball but I'm certain we will improve in that regard once the teams gets more gelled. The problem with this phase is that it can only be executed fast enough if your players know exactly what they have to do after winning the ball, where their teammates are and where to run. This will only start to show once all our new players are settled in until that point we will probably look a bit slow and sluggish in transition.

 

[devilish]

Well that's another phase of play that you are talking about. Transition from defending to attacking. Currently it looks like we are most concerned with keeping the ball which means the team often transitions too slow after winning the ball but I'm certain we will improve in that regard once the teams gets more gelled. The problem with this phase is that it can only be executed fast enough if your players know exactly what they have to do after winning the ball, where their teammates are and where to run. This will only start to show once all our new players are settled in until that point we will probably look a bit slow and sluggish in transition.

In my opinion it reminds me of the good old Catenacchio system. Its not really the tactics but the mentality (ie ball possession, slow build up, focus on the defense etc). The results are pretty the same ie a lot of ball possession, a rock solid defense and few goals. There again during the Catenacchio hay day, no one really worried too much of getting draws instead of wins

I disagree with @Pogue Mahone in suggesting that LVG is a modern type of manager. The man is just a decade younger than SAF and hasn't won a CL in decades. Ok he's a continental type of manager ie ball possession is more important for him than lets say SAF. However his style is pretty cautious and he lacks of the hard working, quick tempo game of other managers of his ilk (ex Guardiola)

 

[beergod]

Well that's another phase of play that you are talking about. Transition from defending to attacking. Currently it looks like we are most concerned with keeping the ball which means the team often transitions too slow after winning the ball but I'm certain we will improve in that regard once the teams gets more gelled. The problem with this phase is that it can only be executed fast enough if your players know exactly what they have to do after winning the ball, where their teammates are and where to run. This will only start to show once all our new players are settled in until that point we will probably look a bit slow and sluggish in transition.

A lot of that has to do with the natural inclinations of our front three these days. Only Young and Depay are consistently looking to make that run for the final ball while Mata and Rooney are looking to get on the ball. We just don't have the numbers with the right attacking orientation like we did when Rooney, Ronaldo, Nani, and Park would be so dangerous on the counter. Ander at #10 would help simply because he is one who will look to make the forward run and make himself available (see his goal vs Brugge) for an incisive pass when we win possession in the middle third.