United Scouts Doing WHAT work?

RUnited

Gold Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 8, 2002
Messages
5,169
Location
Back in the 'hood
I have 3 questions, please answer them with genuine ideas:

1. How come I never hear of United's other scouts on the papers except for Martin Ferguson?

2. While we are out scouting for players in S.America and S.Africa, it appears Liverpool are acquring players with potential from Europe. It benefits them because the European prospects do not need much adjustment while our prospects will require a lot of work on, eg. Forlan. Why is this so? Are we actually that bad scouting in Europe that there no longer appears to be the likes of Schimichel, Kanchelskis or even Stam joinining the club? Our recent signings in Europe have been expensive buys of proven skills players (RVN, Veron, Rio) and yet it seems Riise, Hyypia are worth every penny - coz even if they don't perform, the fans know they were bought cheaply so it won't hurt so much if they had to replace them at one point.

3. I hear a lot of exchange programs between us and Belgium and Portugese clubs, why is this so? There seems to be problems with our youth system as lately there hasn't been many promotions into the main squad and yet there's still room for exchange from these clubs? Is it a political thing aiming at profiting the club with increased fan base in those countries? I think it's unfair really as we have always been very strong in developing English kids - and now the future of England could be on thin line because clubs like United only actually care about making money.
 
Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>I have 3 questions, please answer them with genuine ideas:

1. How come I never hear of United's other scouts on the papers except for Martin Ferguson?

2. While we are out scouting for players in S.America and S.Africa, it appears Liverpool are acquring players with potential from Europe. It benefits them because the European prospects do not need much adjustment while our prospects will require a lot of work on, eg. Forlan. Why is this so? Are we actually that bad scouting in Europe that there no longer appears to be the likes of Schimichel, Kanchelskis or even Stam joinining the club?

3. I hear a lot of exchange programs between us and Belgium and Portugese clubs, why is this so? There seems to be problems with our youth system as lately there hasn't been many promotions into the main squad and yet there's still room for exchange from these clubs? Is it a political thing aiming at profiting the club with increased fan base in those countries? I think it's unfair really as we have always been very strong in developing English kids - and now the future of England could be on thin line because clubs like United only actually care about making money.</strong><hr></blockquote>


I don't know what the obsession is with Latin players who are notoriously slow/unable to settle into English football. Then we go and get a Latin coach as well.

We need to remember that we're playing in England and play football accordingly. At the moment it seems to me that we're trying to play European football all the time.

European players have to be out there - but are we looking?
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>


I don't know what the obsession is with Latin players who are notoriously slow/unable to settle into English football. Then we go and get a Latin coach as well.

We need to remember that we're playing in England and play football accordingly. At the moment it seems to me that we're trying to play European football all the time.

European players have to be out there - but are we looking?</strong><hr></blockquote>

that's what I'm trying to get at.. that we're just not looking for players suitable to play the english game.. it's always about European football and decreasing the pace of the game that's why we're getting European proven players and S.American ones also

I think SAF has got a long term plan in his mind.. but why did he want to quit last year? was his long term plan not working out? if he really had a vision then he wouldn't have said he would retire.. it's all very mysterious...
Click to expand...
 
I have 3 questions, please answer them with genuine ideas:
1. How come I never hear of United's other scouts on the papers except for Martin Ferguson?

On this aspect I guess that Martin ferguson and not the other scouts are to blame. Scouting should be kept secret

a Because you alert your rivals
b the price of the player scouted, usually rises

2. While we are out scouting for players in S.America and S.Africa, it appears Liverpool are acquring players with potential from Europe. It benefits them because the European prospects do not need much adjustment while our prospects will require a lot of work on, eg. Forlan. Why is this so? Are we actually that bad scouting in Europe that there no longer appears to be the likes of Schimichel, Kanchelskis or even Stam joinining the club?

b It is obvious that our scouting net has holes in it expecially when you have coaches like queroz (ex ricardo and ronaldo (sporting lisbon)) and finiho ( escude ) finding the talents and not the scouts. I believe that we need to find talents from everywhere, but snubbing europe is pure madness ( we only sign european players from scandinavia!!)

3. I hear a lot of exchange programs between us and Belgium and Portugese clubs, why is this so? There seems to be problems with our youth system as lately there hasn't been many promotions into the main squad and yet there's still room for exchange from these clubs? Is it a political thing aiming at profiting the club with increased fan base in those countries? I think it's unfair really as we have always been very strong in developing English kids - and now the future of England could be on thin line because clubs like United only actually care about making money.

The youth system had suffered a backlash since harrison retired but with finiho and queroz things are getting better. But in youths things needs a lot of time to adapt and we will see the results only in 3 - 4 yrs time.

About Belgium and Portugal's connection I Agree with Manutd

1 It giving our youths,an extended first team play in european leagues.
2 Belgium permit regulations is different from the english way. After 4 yrs playing in belguim a non EU member is granted a Belgium passport. (So for example we sign a 17 yr old Argentinian, send him to belgium for 4 yrs and then we will have a 21 yr old star with loads of experience and with an eu passport) at the moment we have 2 players like that Arthur Gomez 17 yr old striker from Gambia and an 18 yr old midfielder from Qatar.
 
Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>I have 3 questions, please answer them with genuine ideas:

1. How come I never hear of United's other scouts on the papers except for Martin Ferguson?

2. While we are out scouting for players in S.America and S.Africa, it appears Liverpool are acquring players with potential from Europe. It benefits them because the European prospects do not need much adjustment while our prospects will require a lot of work on, eg. Forlan. Why is this so? Are we actually that bad scouting in Europe that there no longer appears to be the likes of Schimichel, Kanchelskis or even Stam joinining the club? Our recent signings in Europe have been expensive buys of proven skills players (RVN, Veron, Rio) and yet it seems Riise, Hyypia are worth every penny - coz even if they don't perform, the fans know they were bought cheaply so it won't hurt so much if they had to replace them at one point.

3. I hear a lot of exchange programs between us and Belgium and Portugese clubs, why is this so? There seems to be problems with our youth system as lately there hasn't been many promotions into the main squad and yet there's still room for exchange from these clubs? Is it a political thing aiming at profiting the club with increased fan base in those countries? I think it's unfair really as we have always been very strong in developing English kids - and now the future of England could be on thin line because clubs like United only actually care about making money.</strong><hr></blockquote>

1. I have absolutely no idea, I cant give you any names but i have heard of various others over time, it just appears that Martin is the chief scout.

2. I dont think there is anything wrong with scouting players from outside Europe depending on the player it is, there is alot of talent outside Europe and this cant be forgotton, what is dangerous is looking with the exclusion of europe.

There is alot of class players around europe, maybe we are finding them but we are having trouble with the clubs asking for silly money due to the Man Utd tax, for example Escude. Utd were also in for Riise years ago before anyone else even mentioned him. We may also get sucked into paying big money for guys like Mexes and Cisse, who shouldnt really cost too much because you are only paying for potential.

3. I dont know much about the link up with Lisbon but the link with Antwerp i believe has multiple purposes. Firstly it provides a place where some young Man Utd players can get first team experience, eg Chadwick and O'Shea spent time there recently. Secondly it gives Utd first preference on any young Belgian prospects.

Thirdly it is an outpost that any players we want to sign but cant due to EU requirements can be sent until eligible, for example Gomez.

Im sure there may be a degree of trying to build up a Belgian fan base but that would be minimal and im sure Utd dont need to do that trying to get more fans.
Click to expand...
 
Exactly what has Martin achieved in his role as chief scout for United ? I stand to be corrected but it would appear not a great deal. I don't know, but assuming that is a fair assessment, how long has he been underachieving and what has it cost the club in terms of opportunities missed ? On top of everything else I would hate to accuse SAF of nepotism with regard to his brother but it's a pertinent question isn't it ?.
 
The only football history I have of Martin Ferguson is this

He used to be an assistant manager of a small Scottish Premiership team( no names sorry). His boss(and MF)were fired becaust they were leading the team to the relegation. And guess wat? MF was hired as Head Coach at OT.

This man's only discovery was Diego Forlan ( successful isnt it)

And Marcelo Salas ( if you can call that year South American Best player of the year an unknown talent :p )

To add salt to the wound i have heard that his son is responsable for the contracts from the red devils side. Manutd a PLC??? NOOO its looks more like a family run corner shop <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
 
Originally posted by devilish:
<strong>The only football history I have of Martin Ferguson is this

He used to be an assistant manager of a small Scottish Premiership team( no names sorry). His boss(and MF)were fired becaust they were leading the team to the relegation. And guess wat? MF was hired as Head Coach at OT.

This man's only discovery was Diego Forlan ( successful isnt it)

And Marcelo Salas ( if you can call that year South American Best player of the year an unknown talent :p )

To add salt to the wound i have heard that his son is responsable for the contracts from the red devils side. Manutd a PLC??? NOOO its looks more like a family run corner shop <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

I believe martin won the irish championship with waterford fc - anyone can verify this?
Click to expand...
 
well its not exactly Real Madrid but we will try to check :p
 
Originally posted by Jason F:
<strong>

Thirdly it is an outpost that any players we want to sign but cant due to EU requirements can be sent until eligible, for example Gomez.

.</strong><hr></blockquote>

thank you for your insights, it has certainly help clear up a few things I had always wondered about..

i still don't quite get how the EU requirements work and i don't think i want to get into it either...

Anyhow, I sure would still prefer to see some english lads grow up to be great footballers at United rather than from all over the world..

I know some kids from Thailand who are playing in England and are playing for their schools in the European Championships and i hear these english kids are excellent.. so that's why i thought the idea of scouting outside europe was a crap idea.
Click to expand...
 
We probably have enough gems in our youth system now to keep up us going. Particularly Timm, Richardson, Davis, and a few others. Many of these players could've broken through earlier were it not for the quality of our existing first team players.
 
I am not totally pessimistic about South Americans

Veron (in my opinion) is doing fairly well while you cannot critize players like Ardiles, Solano, Junior, Gilberto and Juninho.

Yes there are several factors against them like
1 Climate
2 Football style
3 Mentality

But that doesnt mean they aren't cut for the PremierLeague.

My conclusion is that you need to do your homework well before bringing in one of those players.
 
Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>
Don't forget about Culture and Language.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Nor should you forget about the quality of the pitches or the training and physical demands.

Being on form in South America it would still take you at least 6 months to catch up.

You might laugh about the pitches but it is the most common reference from players who have been recently been trnasferred: "it's like a snooker table, the ball goes really fast and you can't keep up with it".
Click to expand...
 
it's a totally different style IMO.. s.americans style is a slow game, but with more technicality involved.. if not for the fecked up economies, advertising system and TV network then I think a lot of their superstars would not move out to play in Europe.. esp in England..

everybody thrives a chance to play in England because that's where the money is nowadays.. i remember the days when they all wanted to play in Spain and ITaly.. it suits their style much much better.. the main reason they're here i feel is the money.. no one can give them this much anymore.. and the exposure they get.. it's unbelievable..

True you can't complain about the likes of Solano and co., but are they super super stars in England? not really.. juninho made it in the boro team the first time because the team was crap and had no other big names in the team.. now let's play him in there again.. i don't think it's going to work.. boro now has more wellknown faces and they're playing good football.. fast too.. so juninho won't fit in as well anymore..

Solano has made most impact from his dead-ball game.. he's a genius at that.. but really, i think robert has given them the most sparks in open play the past couple of seasons..

So there, i don't think s.americans are suited for our game for this reason also, and for the other reasons others have mentioned.
 
Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>1. How come I never hear of United's other scouts on the papers except for Martin Ferguson?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

It makes the story more credible as anyone can quickly associate the name to SAF and because any transfer is possible if he has anything to do with it! ;)

<strong>2. While we are out scouting for players in S.America and S.Africa, it appears Liverpool are acquring players with potential from Europe. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't agree with ignoring non-European players (which I read as "we have no use for Bobby Carlos, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Aimar, Saviola, Riquelme, etc. up until they become stars and we have -and are willing- to pay 30m+ for them..."). People say they never cut it in the EPL, well tell me how many top South American players have ever played for English clubs? I can only hear you say Veron and the problem there has nothing to do with being South American but the fact that we have signed a playmaker who plays a different style to the team he is meant to be the heart of!

All that said, I'm not one to advocate having a World XI team. Our team need not be mainly British but the core must be European and we are failing at spotting the best talent early on and for the right price. Maybe we are not getting it right but I would also suggest that:

a) no player will come to United cheaply. It's the only club that can't possibly convince the other side that they can't afford a player, whatever the MUMU (Manchester United MarkUp :) ).

b) France have done some excellent work at youth level but we can't cherrypick as the French-connection at Arse and Pool is, like it or not, irresistible.

<strong>3. I hear a lot of exchange programs between us and Belgium and Portugese clubs, why is this so?</strong><hr></blockquote>

The work permit rules in England are extremely harsh. Essentially, any chance of signing promising non-EU-nor-fake-passport youngsters early on is ZERO (must have played X games for National Team, etc. hardly cheap by then!). Feeder clubs let us get around this rule while giving us an outlet for giving promising youngsters first team football as we can't afford to risk results in the League/CL with them.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
very insightful antohan, thank you for your replies..

although i'm sure i could pick on a few things to discuss i'd skip it tonight, it's getting late and my brain isn't functioning very well.

thanx anyway.
 
Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>True you can't complain about the likes of Solano and co., but are they super super stars in England? not really.. </strong><hr></blockquote>

They aren't South American super super stars either. Poyet never had a decent run in the Uruguayan team (and you know we are not talking superpowers here <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> ) and no one expects him to be a super super star in England either. He just gets on with his role in the team and is a useful player, same as he always did everywhere.

It's the equivalent of a Brazilian team signing Danny Mills and then complaining English players are shite.

Get my point?

On the money aspects, it's pretty obvious that none of us would refuse a &gt;2,000% pay rise. Now, would you?
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by lchk:
<strong>I believe martin won the irish championship with waterford fc - anyone can verify this?</strong><hr></blockquote>

he did right enough, thanks to his connections we have one John O'Shea in our ranks.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by antohan:
<strong>

France have done some excellent work at youth level but we can't cherrypick as the French-connection at Arse and Pool is, like it or not, irresistible.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Given France's showing this summer, I'd be quite happy if we could pick the cherries from the other 99% of the world's population.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by fortyseven:
<strong>Given France's showing this summer, I'd be quite happy if we could pick the cherries from the other 99% of the world's population.</strong><hr></blockquote>

C'mon! You know it was odd, it happens to any team, particularly when most players are in need of a rest, have got too big for their shoes and your manager is a dickhead and keeps playing those who are past it (Le Beef anyone?).

France has done some good work with the younger players and that's how today everyone has a French player to rave about (it wasn't like that in the early 90s, was it?). I specifically picked France because a lot of bargains are coming from there, in Italy/Spain their prices skyrocket very quickly.
Click to expand...
 
didn't pool sign two african players this yr? and they have some other non-eu players as well
 
Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

he did right enough, thanks to his connections we have one John O'Shea in our ranks.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Did he? Any URLs on this?
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by antohan:
<strong>

They aren't South American super super stars either. Poyet never had a decent run in the Uruguayan team (and you know we are not talking superpowers here <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> ) and no one expects him to be a super super star in England either. He just gets on with his role in the team and is a useful player, same as he always did everywhere.

It's the equivalent of a Brazilian team signing Danny Mills and then complaining English players are shite.

Get my point?

</strong><hr></blockquote>

yeah, unfortunately i do.

but then how come no english club will sign super super stars from s.america?

i think many of them are now afraid to make appearances in England after veron failed to shine.. they're probably afraid their reputation will be dead and buried in the EPL!
Click to expand...
 
Many argue that we are not raising homegrown english players But on this issue i agree with SAF.

1 With the new FA regulations Manutd can only raise english youths from thier area. that would mean that we must forget of finding a new David Beckham(Becks is a londoner).

2 Buying an english youth is extremely dear. I remember trying to sign some English youngsters and the prices where
J Cole 17yr 6m
K Dyer 18yr 6m
R Wright 20yrs 5m
G Barry 18yrs 6m

Ridiculous
 
Originally posted by devilish:
<strong>Many argue that we are not raising homegrown english players But on this issue i agree with SAF.

1 With the new FA regulations Manutd can only raise english youths from thier area. that would mean that we must forget of finding a new David Beckham(Becks is a londoner).

2 Buying an english youth is extremely dear. I remember trying to sign some English youngsters and the prices where
J Cole 17yr 6m
K Dyer 18yr 6m
R Wright 20yrs 5m
G Barry 18yrs 6m

Ridiculous</strong><hr></blockquote>

1. I didn't know about the new regulations!?!? Now thinngs are becoming clearer for me, thank you.

2. Cole and Dyer would have been excellent bets. And even if we had paid for those 4 at that prices and got the best out of only cole and dyer it would have still been worth it..
Click to expand...
 
Now we think they would have been a bargian but not 5 yrs ago.

There were only promising talents with no guarantees and with a hefty price tag on their neck.
 
Originally posted by devilish:
<strong>Now we think they would have been a bargian but not 5 yrs ago.

There were only promising talents with no guarantees and with a hefty price tag on their neck.</strong><hr></blockquote>

but then again

had they come to united five years ago, the likes of cole and dyer may have ended up like Chadwick - without a place in the first 11.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by devilish:
<strong>
2 Buying an english youth is extremely dear. I remember trying to sign some English youngsters and the prices where
J Cole 17yr 6m
K Dyer 18yr 6m
R Wright 20yrs 5m
G Barry 18yrs 6m

Ridiculous</strong><hr></blockquote>

Is it?
Let's say the odds are 1/2 that a 18-year old super talent will become a star.

Then add their price tags. You would have had Joe Cole, Kieron Dyer, Wright and Gareth Barry for one JSV.

Worth the gamble?

I sure think so.

TRM.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>
but then how come no english club will sign super super stars from s.america?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Simple, any of these can easily get ~100K a week in big Italian/Spanish clubs. Manchester United might be a great club but not the only one around is it?

So, once you have a choice of big ambitious clubs offering a good package the next consideration is settling in (particularly for the player's family). Language and climate are defining factors.

Veron was an exceptional case because he was having all his passport trouble and something had to be done quick.

You could say that means no superstar will ever be truly committed to United, probably true. That's why I think if we ever will have great South American players at OT we have to get them young and let them become superstars here. That's why I agree with getting young South American talent early on.
Click to expand...
 
You have misunderstanded me and it is all the fault because i have written about superb players and not about the crap which club have asked millions for them

One name that bears inside my head is Riggott. Manutd were interested in him and so Where liverpool until a 10m transfer tag was hanged around his neck

Same story goes for both Seth Johnsen,Titus Bramble,Micheal Ball,De Foe and Richard Wright.

Look at R Ferdinard for example.I know He is a world class defender, but dont you think it was brought to OT at a hefty price (30m) when around the corner we have witnessed Alessandro Nesta's switch to AC Milan for only 19m

Jeffers at 12m, R Wright at 7+ million( they originally wanted 10m from Manutd)R Keane for 15m and Cort for 7m, THIS IS MADNESS
 
Originally posted by RUnited:

but then how come no english club will sign super super stars from s.america?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Climate, Mentality and the long EPL are dominating factors but certianly not the main ones.

The main problem derives from England's strict work permit rules. Let me explain

Players like Zanetti and Recoba came in Italy as little more than unknown talent. In fact the two players mentioned came At Inter as a youth package which consisted of 3 other players Caio, Ze Elias( I Think) and Rambert. The failing risk was high but the transfer fees very low and at the end of the day Inter finished up with tow world class players.

In England you cannot sign a non Eu player unless he had estabilished himself well as an international player. So the best players had been lured to Spain or Italy before an English team can ever hope of buying them.

Buying estabilished south american stars from european sides is much more difficult( and would cost you much more) then discovering them in STH America

Dont forget also that you need to play them regulary if you want to avoid Work Permit problems.

Another issue forgotten is that STH American int coaches's mentality is that the EPL is inferior to the Spanish Liga and the Serie A. We have witnessed how Juninho was snubbed by Brazil during his golden years at Middlesboro. A snubbing which had lead him to leave England for Atletico Madrid
 
Originally posted by Stanley Road:
<strong>I dunno why we seek south american 'stars' they're crap

Maybe south america has a nicer climate for the likes of Fegusssson the scout</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well,you Mancs are right if you're talking about Veron and Forlan......but ,not right if you think about Gilberto Silva,Edu and Silvinho before him.

Also,I wouldn't say that Ayala,Aimar,Kily Gonzales ,Ronaldo,Rivaldo,etc. are crap.

What I would say is that your tosspot of a manager has bought some crap south americans !!And it's just ignorance (sour grapes?)to assume all south americans are just as bad.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by Gillespie:
<strong>

Well,you Mancs are right if you're talking about Veron and Forlan......but ,not right if you think about Gilberto Silva,Edu and Silvinho before him.

Also,I wouldn't say that Ayala,Aimar,Kily Gonzales ,Ronaldo,Rivaldo,etc. are crap.

What I would say is that your tosspot of a manager has bought some crap south americans !!And it's just ignorance (sour grapes?)to assume all south americans are just as bad.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Quite. But wait minute ! Whatever happened to Silvinho ? As for Gilberto and Edu, let's wait and see how things unfold as far as they are concerned. Just a little premature to be crowing about them isn't it. As for SAF buying "crap South Americans " (note the plural), I can only think of one dubious purchase who falls into that category and accoridng to many on this forum, he may turn out OK in the end !
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by Julian Denny:
<strong>

Quite. But wait minute ! Whatever happened to Silvinho ? As for Gilberto and Edu, let's wait and see how things unfold as far as they are concerned. Just a little premature to be crowing about them isn't it. As for SAF buying "crap South Americans " (note the plural), I can only think of one dubious purchase who falls into that category and accoridng to many on this forum, he may turn out OK in the end !</strong><hr></blockquote>#
#
And which of the 2 are you referring to ?!
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by devilish:
<strong>Another issue forgotten is that STH American int coaches's mentality is that the EPL is inferior to the Spanish Liga and the Serie A. We have witnessed how Juninho was snubbed by Brazil during his golden years at Middlesboro. A snubbing which had lead him to leave England for Atletico Madrid</strong><hr></blockquote>

are you serious? I never thought of this this way before really.

i mean, sure the league game play and style is different, but inferior? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
Click to expand...
 
Im actually studying excercise science at uni and i was doing some research a couple of weeks ago and came across a study that was done between the sth american leagues and the Premiership. It was very interesting reading, talking about the style of play, body types of players and all kinds of things.

From reading that and my own thoughts i would suggest that its possible for any player from sth America to be a hit in the EPL, catch is they have to either be of the English build and style of play, its always possible to adapt but its hard, im not too sure that someone like Rivaldo would be any more of a hit here than Veron.

Sth American players have a far greater chance of suceeding in the continental leagues because the style of play is very similar. That said I think in time Veron can be become a great player at OT when is completely adapts to the style, Forlan is the same, it would help if he played in the right position though!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.