Like I said, you're conflating.
United Hour podcast - As Bad As It Gets (City defeat)
- Thread starter Vault Dweller
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Like I said, you're conflating.
Great episode lads.
I do see Amir's point that we have a collective of players more than a united team from a tactical stand point. In the sense that there is a lack of a coherent thought in what is going on.
City was actually the polar opposite and helps to pinpoint the issue even more. Everyone on that teams knows there role, but also the plan of the entire team.
With United under Ole you lack that clear plan. If you say, well our plan was to stay back and hit them on the counter. Well that could work if we set up for that. But we didnt because our players didnt put any pressure on city.
If you want to hit City on counters you need to get the ball first, and that will never happen when you dont press together, or in our case dont press at all.
And the same going forward.
I have heard alot of people claim that simply standing back is the easiest way to counter United, but I believe pressure is much stronger.
You saw it with Atalanta. They had us on the ropes when playing high and pressing whoever had the ball. City did the same and completely destroyed us. This again illustrates our lack of a cooperative unit. Our players dont move enough without the ball and dont move for each other. Its like they each have their own role to fill and are told to just focus on that, which is why its difficult for our players to find the right pass, to close down correctly in defense etc.
Its also why Ole desperately needs Bruno to be firing on all cylinders, because he can create something out of nothing, which is the only way to produce when you have 11 players playing for themselves and not with a plan.
I do see Amir's point that we have a collective of players more than a united team from a tactical stand point. In the sense that there is a lack of a coherent thought in what is going on.
City was actually the polar opposite and helps to pinpoint the issue even more. Everyone on that teams knows there role, but also the plan of the entire team.
With United under Ole you lack that clear plan. If you say, well our plan was to stay back and hit them on the counter. Well that could work if we set up for that. But we didnt because our players didnt put any pressure on city.
If you want to hit City on counters you need to get the ball first, and that will never happen when you dont press together, or in our case dont press at all.
And the same going forward.
I have heard alot of people claim that simply standing back is the easiest way to counter United, but I believe pressure is much stronger.
You saw it with Atalanta. They had us on the ropes when playing high and pressing whoever had the ball. City did the same and completely destroyed us. This again illustrates our lack of a cooperative unit. Our players dont move enough without the ball and dont move for each other. Its like they each have their own role to fill and are told to just focus on that, which is why its difficult for our players to find the right pass, to close down correctly in defense etc.
Its also why Ole desperately needs Bruno to be firing on all cylinders, because he can create something out of nothing, which is the only way to produce when you have 11 players playing for themselves and not with a plan.
Glad to hear that as I didn't get that impression from the wall of criticism that I'm going to ignore for now
I think anyone who says he hasn't done a good job to a point is disingenuous. It's obvious to me that in spite of the impressive squad building and positive culture shift the progress has halted, we are regressing and given the quality of the players a more experienced man in charge would get a lot more out of the players.Glad to hear that as I didn't get that impression from the wall of criticism that I'm going to ignore for now
Interestingly Andy Mitten made the same point on the Athletic podcast. Danger is that Ole risks undoing the good things he did if things continue. He'll always be a club legend and he'll always be loved. Doesn't mean he's beyond criticism though.
That's completely fair comment and he gets criticism for me on this show too, I've said for a while that Ole needed to learn from mistakes he has made in squad and game management but unfortunately he hasn't and it looks like that will eventually lead to his downfall
Yes, Tampa Bay won the SB last year. I'm not sure why they're so reluctant to do so with United and tbf they've spent a lot on players so it's not as if they're totally skint across the board.
They spent big on one of the most expensive manager in the world in Jose and if ended badly !
True but why won’t they get the best CEO or director of football or coaches? city did and they did with the plan that they would eventually bring in Guardiola, I hate to say it, and I’m sicking up in my mouth as I do, but it’s the sort of forward thinking and planning we could only dream of.
I want to say it’s because the glazers need total control but if that really was the case why have they taken a different way of ownership with Tampa? or maybe they haven’t, maybe they just have a better knowledge of American football and how to run it which doesn’t make any sense that they wouldn’t get someone in with better footballing knowledge to oversee United, that just seems stupid and incompetent…oh wait! I think I just answered my own question.
Glazers priority is the business side so for them they were happy with Woodward CEO as long as we kept making profit.
DoF has been a major disappointment as we all hoped for a proper restructure, there has been some improvement behind the scenes but in the end it was an anticlimax as all we got was Murtough and Fletcher (and it's still not entirely clear what exactly either of them are responsible for).
Coaches is a different story and not really the remit of the owners, it's the manager who selects his coaching staff and Ole has tended to go for promising young coaches with new ideas rather than experienced names (Phelan being the exception) - I think he could have benefited from bringing in some more experience, especially on the defensive side.
It's difficult to compare football to NFL - US sports in general work in a different way with franchises, drafts etc but actually the Glazers have shelled out big money on players and managers at United. Just it's not always been spent wisely
Good pod. I agreed with a lot of what @AR87 said. Square pegs, round holes.
Ole's selections seem to be dictated by trying to fit players in, rather than a cohesive idea of how the different pieces fit together. If you've got Cristiano, why play him with goal getters rather than creators?
My one point of disagreement is that United are out of the title race. If we win our next few games, one of which is Chelsea, we'll be six points off them -- and they're leaders. That's not unbridgeable between now and May. However, it looks that way for us because nobody really believes Ole will be able to get the team playing again. Which, again, underlines that we should have changed coach. On paper, there's still a path to a title win for us. Its just believing Ole can pilot us to that is optimistic.
To me it all feels very Van Gaal 2015-16. A better winter that season and we would've been right back in the title race. However, our results fell apart. You could see it falling apart a mile off. The Board didn't act and we limped through to the end of the season. Hopefully Villareal next Tuesday isn't Ole's equivalent of Louis' bad night at Wolfsburg.
Ole's selections seem to be dictated by trying to fit players in, rather than a cohesive idea of how the different pieces fit together. If you've got Cristiano, why play him with goal getters rather than creators?
My one point of disagreement is that United are out of the title race. If we win our next few games, one of which is Chelsea, we'll be six points off them -- and they're leaders. That's not unbridgeable between now and May. However, it looks that way for us because nobody really believes Ole will be able to get the team playing again. Which, again, underlines that we should have changed coach. On paper, there's still a path to a title win for us. Its just believing Ole can pilot us to that is optimistic.
To me it all feels very Van Gaal 2015-16. A better winter that season and we would've been right back in the title race. However, our results fell apart. You could see it falling apart a mile off. The Board didn't act and we limped through to the end of the season. Hopefully Villareal next Tuesday isn't Ole's equivalent of Louis' bad night at Wolfsburg.
You are right that there is a feeling of deja vu about the current situation - there are parallels to both LvG and Jose's last seasons
But as you rightly say, the season is far from a write off which is why the board havent acted already - 5 points off top4 and 9 from 1st is salvagable at this early stage in the season, we are also currently top of the CL group. We did start badly last season too and Ole managed to turn it around so I suppose the board are hoping for a repeat
Yeah, and I know I'm preaching to the choir with you, but the problem is we're all hoping but nobody's expecting.
I remember 2015-16. I remember us getting the late win at Watford and thinking: 'Its on.' I remember us drawing at Leicester, when we were neck and neck, and thinking we can do this. But over November it all began to fall apart. We dropped out of the Champions League, then we had some awful results at home. The Bournemouth and Norwich home losses were pure vomit. Followed up by that embarrassment at Stoke where Memphis set up one of their players with a diving header towards out box.
We could all see it getting worse and worse and worse and you were thinking: Look if we act now we'll only be X points of the top, we can rescue this......But the Board just kept letting the situation drift and drift and drift...
...Like they're doing now.
I pray, pray, PRAY this ends differently to 2015-16. I pray Ole proves me, and everyone wrong, and we can get right back in the mix. But all the warning signs are going off and the only way I see us salvaging anything is pressing the reset button.
PS) That reset button is not Brentan Rodgers. If that's the Board's big plan then #OleIn.
Agree on Glazers/Restructuring.
Coaches though - yes, they are mostly young and new, but what is the evidence that they are actually promising (apart from probably McKenna)? And what is the evidence for "new ideas" - which "new ideas" do they have that we can see on the pitch?
P.S. Great pod, very much enjoy it, loyal listener for many years and even if I mostly do not agree with your defenses of Ole, you provide very useful counterpoints, it is a lot better than having an "echo-chamber" pod.
The board haven't acted because unlike other supposed big clubs they are a bunch of cowards, oh yeah and he's also their defence shield from the fans because they know we are sentimental FC. The facts are he should have been sacked the Tuesday after Liverpool.
I wish I could feel something again for this team but won't happen under Ole because know positive results don't bring the change desperately needed.
Cheers!
But ye the inexperience of coaching staff is an issue and there are not many signs that the new ones (Ramsey and Cochrane) are having much impact, although it is early days for them TBF
Worth noting that it was actually Jose who promoted Carrick and McKenna to the matchday bench, Ole saw enough to retain them. McKenna seems higher rated and my understanding is that he's primarily tasked with researching opponents and planning tactics
I'm open to a change but while Ole is manager he'll have my full backing and I still hope he can turn it around !
I don't think there's a problem with coaches being young. Young can be great if they are really good. We've seen young managers doing well, so I don't see why a young coach under a good manager wouldn't do well. We just don't have that manager.
I don't think there's much a good coach do to save a manager from himself. If the manager has the right ideas but needs someone to implement them perfectly, then OK. The coaches can't decide how we play by themselves. The team is supposed to be in the vision of the manager, as he also makes signings and manages the team during the game. And I think we can all agree that before there's a problem in implementing Solskjaer's vision, there's a problem with the vision itself (or lack of).
I don't think there's much a good coach do to save a manager from himself. If the manager has the right ideas but needs someone to implement them perfectly, then OK. The coaches can't decide how we play by themselves. The team is supposed to be in the vision of the manager, as he also makes signings and manages the team during the game. And I think we can all agree that before there's a problem in implementing Solskjaer's vision, there's a problem with the vision itself (or lack of).
He isn't turning it around and don't you feel even slightly embarrassed about "Ole at The Wheel" with how much that song has been mocked by rivals.
I wouldn't mind betting you are also prepared to see out the season with him. He would be long gone at a properly run club which we clearly aren't under this ownership.
I'm not sure it's because they are cowards....
more that the board are out of their depth, with no footballing expertise and unsure of themselves as a result.
Ask our board where to invest money or for tips on how to monetise something and you'd see some expertise.
instead its like they are at the scene of an accident, frozen and unable to act - because of their lack of football knowledge they will make the decision based on points off top 4. We'll slip behind, they'll wait, we'll slip, they'll act until we give an interim manager with a really hard task in getting top 4.
it's nearly 2022 and we still need a Director of Football
Ole will only see out the season if results pick up and yes of course I'd be happy with that - what kind of United fan wouldn't want that to happen?