United...1990s Liverpool re-enacted?

TheReligion said:
Our oppo fans should have a cute little net spend trophy battle.

@redman5 leading the reds and @GlastonSpur leading the Spuds.
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:lol:

An admin needs to change Glaston's username to GlastonFinance. It's all he goes on about.

Back to the thread - we aren't the new Liverpool. We don't play in a shitehole of a stadium for a start, Hi-Tec don't make our kits and we are a juggernaut globally - plus we're already winning trophies without Fergie.
 
From 1991-2000 Liverpool won all of 2 trophys - League Cup(95) and FA Cup (92). When we go 9 years with two trophys then we will be in exactly the same boat! So no, there is no comparison yet.
 
We need to be careful as money will not bring you success unless you know how to use the players that you buy.
 
Peanut Butter said:
:lol:

An admin needs to change Glaston's username to GlastonFinance. It's all he goes on about.

Back to the thread - we aren't the new Liverpool. We don't play in a shitehole of a stadium for a start, Hi-Tec don't make our kits and we are a juggernaut globally - plus we're already winning trophies without Fergie.
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It's a pretty bizarre comparison really and one borne out of hope rather than actual substance. The title is as sensationalist as a regular tabloid rag and the content lazy and misinformed.

The fact is the PL is very unstable at the moment and no one team looks likely to dominate. Leicester won it last year whilst the current Champions Elect were languishing at the bottom of the league. Liverpool continue to do nothing of note whilst Spurs simply fail to get over the line. City are rebuilding, much like United and Arsenal are at a crossroad with their manager a la SAF.

I guess the thread is targeted at United as they are the biggest and most successful club in England however I doubt the OP believes the club will go over 26 years without a title (and counting) as Liverpool have given the level of contingency the club has in place.

Besides. We all know Liverpool stopped winning when the backpass rule came into play. It prevented them from continuing to impose their boring brand of football and was the catalyst in their downfall. The rest they say it's history.
 
shaky said:
Don't kid yourself that we are special and have our own unique way of doing things that makes us better than everyone. Supporters of all clubs think that way.
That special thing that made us so different from the rest was our manager. He isn't coming back so we have to accept that we are fighting on the same playing field as everyone else now. Jose is building a team, he will have plans for everyone he brings in, but they obviously won't come to full fruition until he has everyone he thinks we need.
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If supporters of all clubs think this way, then I, as a Utd supporter am bound to think that we are special. Why else do we support our club if not for the reason that we think its special?

Maybe for you there has never been anything special about us apart from our manager but for me (and I think the majority of Utd supporters) there has always been something special about how things are done at this club.

If Jose is building a team as you say, then that is exactly what my post was about, to build a team rather than trying to buy high profile players who don't fit into the team.
 
cyberman said:
I have said it's only Utd and City who have bought players at that level. Roman has tightened up the purse strings for a long time now,, it's been one of the criticisms that their fans have of him in recent years.
It's simple to look at, our transfer targers seem to be of the Griezmann and Mbappe variety while Spurs and Arsenal are linked with who?
The money ties into everything about the club. Theres a lot that goes into it.
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I have no illusions that Spurs and Arsenal can compete with us financially. Roman has tightened to make them self sufficient but we know he is the wealthiest, so if Messi was available, do you think he wouldn't dip into personal funds to acquire him?
 
Bless Liverpool fans. This thread is an exercise is wishful thinking. Nothing else. Comparisons to Liverpool are insulting. Maybe the day we begin to play victim and condone racism...
 
King7Eric said:
If supporters of all clubs think this way, then I, as a Utd supporter am bound to think that we are special. Why else do we support our club if not for the reason that we think its special?

Maybe for you there has never been anything special about us apart from our manager but for me (and I think the majority of Utd supporters) there has always been something special about how things are done at this club.

If Jose is building a team as you say, then that is exactly what my post was about, to build a team rather than trying to buy high profile players who don't fit into the team.
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Fair enough. Though I'm not one for romanticised notions of there being some special "Utd way" of doing things that will make us into champions. Each manager has their own way, and if works, which I think it will in Mourinho's case, then I'm good with it!
 
Yep. Everyone said it wouldn't happen, it's happening.

SAF was a miracle. We're not getting anywhere near that level of success for a very, very long time.
 
matherto said:
Yep. Everyone said it wouldn't happen, it's happening.

SAF was a miracle. We're not getting anywhere near that level of success for a very, very long time.
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I don't think we ever will. Nor will any other club. Mainly because SAF was a once in a lifetime manager - who joined the perfect club at the perfect time - but also because of some of the reasons in the OP.

We won't "do a Liverpool" though. That sort of prolonged systemic feckwittery is almost as rare as finding a manager like SAF.
 
TheReligion said:
It's a pretty bizarre comparison really and one borne out of hope rather than actual substance. The title is as sensationalist as a regular tabloid rag and the content lazy and misinformed.

The fact is the PL is very unstable at the moment and no one team looks likely to dominate. Leicester won it last year whilst the current Champions Elect were languishing at the bottom of the league. Liverpool continue to do nothing of note whilst Spurs simply fail to get over the line. City are rebuilding, much like United and Arsenal are at a crossroad with their manager a la SAF.

I guess the thread is targeted at United as they are the biggest and most successful club in England however I doubt the OP believes the club will go over 26 years without a title (and counting) as Liverpool have given the level of contingency the club has in place.

Besides. We all know Liverpool stopped winning when the backpass rule came into play. It prevented them from continuing to impose their boring brand of football and was the catalyst in their downfall. The rest they say it's history.
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Very good post.
 
Would it not serve this thread better to discuss modern Liverpool's travails in the Klopp thread? It's leading to repetition from some usual suspects. Glib one-upmanship that can get tedious.

This thread was genuinely supposed to be a grown up discussion about succession. This was supposed to be a discussion about the potential pitfalls that occur following a period of supreme domination, which is why 1990s Liverpool is used as the comparison. Fine if you disagree with the premise but the usual jibes aren't developing the debate, which has genuinely been interesting in the main.
 
PickledRed said:
…But the one factor I will keep coming back to is that of the ‘spell has been broken’. In 1991 Liverpool stopped doing the things that made them the best. In 2013 United stopped doing the things that made them the best.

.
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What is it exactly that you think Utd did that made them the best, but stopped doing in 2013? Our manager retired. That's pretty much it. Sometimes it takes a few years to sort things out after such an upheaval. Sometimes it doesn't. In our case, it has done, but I don't really see anything fundamentally wrong or different. The only reason big clubs fail for a long period of time these days is when they have trouble competing financially. I can't think of one modern example of a club with our resources having a spell like Liverpool has had from the 90s. It's a different game these days.
 
shaky said:
What is it exactly that you think Utd did that made them the best, but stopped doing in 2013? Our manager retired. That's pretty much it. Sometimes it takes a few years to sort things out after such an upheaval. Sometimes it doesn't. In our case, it has done, but I don't really see anything fundamentally wrong or different. The only reason big clubs fail for a long period of time these days is when they have trouble competing financially. I can't think of one modern example of a club with our resources having a spell like Liverpool has had from the 90s. It's a different game these days.
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Yep
 
I used to think like the OP then I realised despite the media circle jerk we win more then Spurs, Liverpool etc. You wouldn't think Spurs had won't back to back titles the way the media pur about them.

Fact is teams finishing 2nd-8th is not a good season, trophies matter and even in our bad spell we are winning then.

If it continues for 5 more years maybe we can talk but this is our first proper season with a proper manager since SAF left. Let's judge the next 5 years and not jump to conclusions
 
Zii said:
I used to think like the OP then I realised despite the media circle jerk we win more then Spurs, Liverpool etc. You wouldn't think Spurs had won't back to back titles the way the media pur about them.

Fact is teams finishing 2nd-8th is not a good season, trophies matter and even in our bad spell we are winning then.

If it continues for 5 more years maybe we can talk but this is our first proper season with a proper manager since SAF left. Let's judge the next 5 years and not jump to conclusions
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Liverpool have won trophies in the years since domination. They didn't become bottom half plodders. It's more than that, isn't it?
 
shaky said:
Fair enough. Though I'm not one for romanticised notions of there being some special "Utd way" of doing things that will make us into champions. Each manager has their own way, and if works, which I think it will in Mourinho's case, then I'm good with it!
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Let's hope Mourinho can make it work.:)
 
Reasonable op, there are similarities, but it's still too early to tell. If we can pull of a league in the next couple of years it will be really important in stopping any rot, real or imagined, from really taking hold.
 
PickledRed said:
I have written this, not to antagonise or provoke, but as something that I think carries more than a degree of truth…

Since SAF left United in 2013 I have considered it a formality for United to return to winning ways sooner rather than later – by winning ways I mean challenging for league titles in the manner they have become used to. While comparisons with Liverpool’s demise have been uttered, the conventional wisdom has been that the same thing won’t happen as United’s financial infrastructure will mean that success will be far easier to come by compared to a Liverpool that totally lost their way at the end of Dalglish’s reign in 1991. However, there are striking similarities, albeit in a very different era.

End of an era – end of a philosophy:

Liverpool’s long run of success was built on the bootroom, which transcended any individual and allowed new managers to be appointed from within the club and sustain success. Continuity and fluid transition from one man to the next led to success. Keep it ‘in-house’ was the name of the game. The spell was broken the moment the internal candidates ran out. Souness arrived and engaged in a destructive transfer policy that saw a complete lowering of standards: Dicks, Stewart, Tanner, Clough and Ruddock being prime examples. Aging legends were being replaced by average cloggers. The era of domination was over…

United’s success was built differently but with similar results. Continuity came through the vision and brilliance of one man – SAF’s ability to build, refresh and renew was his great talent. Create successful teams over and over again. He’d use a variety of sidekicks but he was the constant. His drive to succeed was worth tons of points every season. If he was knocked back one season he’d build again and prove doubters wrong. It was an unerring era of supreme dominance. But like Liverpool, the spell has been broken. In 2013 SAF left and a new regime stepped in, dismantling the successful apparatus that had led to a generation of brilliance. Moyes brought his own men and ideas to the table and mediocrity reigned. United became mortal – late winners stopped coming, ‘never say die’ was no longer a mission statement, Old Trafford stopped being a fortress. The era of domination was over…

But United are still winning stuff:

Yes, they are and they remain extremely relevant. Despite United’s disappointing league position last week’s Manchester Derby felt as important as ever. It was a crunch game. No doubt, United are still box office. But so were Liverpool; so ARE Liverpool. Despite Liverpool’s regular disappointments over the past 20 odd years, they remain very relevant (despite what certain rivals like to suggest). I read recently that MirrorSport’s daily chart has Liverpool and United as bankers in terms of guaranteeing traffic to their website. Like United in the years that have proceeded SAF’s departure, Liverpool won an FA Cup and League Cup within four years of Dalglish leaving…ring any bells? Soon, Liverpool became cup specialists in a league that became increasingly tough to compete in. Winning cups gives the veneer of success and keeps the wolf from the door, but it doesn’t really scratch that itch, does it?

United are in a much stronger position than ‘1991 Liverpool’:

United are dead rich and can blow nearly any team out of the water. In 1991, Liverpool couldn’t quite match United’s allure for top players and also didn’t have the equivalent youth system to prop themselves up to compete. But such comparisons are useless, today’s footballing reality isn’t the same. Yes United have huge funds, but is that still the game changer it was even 5 years ago. United find themselves as the richest club amongst a load of other really rich clubs. Squad building for the Premier League’s elite isn’t a problem – about 5 or 6 clubs now have huge funds to buy big. And even if United buy ‘biggest’, it’s not enough to stop rivals in their tracks.

My point is that, relatively speaking, United’s financial predominance isn’t enough in itself to achieve footballing dominance. It’s not the marginal gain it once was.

Money is, in fact, the problem

Financial might is so far removed from what really made United great that a preoccupation of big money signings is the very thing that’s holding them back. Compare transfer activity since SAF left to when he was in charge – it’s a totally different approach. Some United fans have become seduced into the idea that the chequebook will bail them out of the current stasis. This, despite the fact that SAF’s primary principals were never about splurging huge amounts on talent. He built TEAMS…expensive teams, but teams that had a collective endeavour and not side tracked by individual distractions (see selling of Beckham and Stam to observe how team trumped individual brilliance).

Back in the 90s, Liverpool were guilty of breaking transfer records to buy back their success. Saunders and Collymore both broke the British transfer record…that worked, didn’t it?

Lazy comparisons?

Yes, this whole piece could be regarded as shoe-horning in a load of convenient factors that link 1990s Liverpool to modern-day United. Fair cop…

…But the one factor I will keep coming back to is that of the ‘spell has been broken’. In 1991 Liverpool stopped doing the things that made them the best. In 2013 United stopped doing the things that made them the best.

The road back is an absolute quagmire.
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You talk about the bootroom as the mainstay of your success, which is probably true. But you don't push any blame towards Daglish for breaking that philosophy, you blame Souness. As an outsider you could see the writing on the wall during Daglish's reign.
All I remember from the Souness era was the spice boys and a bunch of talented youth that didn't have the work ethic of the previous generation. Like many young players under Fergie, your young players thought they had it made once they played for the first team, so didn't continue to develop.
 
SalfordRed1960 said:
You talk about the bootroom as the mainstay of your success, which is probably true. But you don't push any blame towards Daglish for breaking that philosophy, you blame Souness. As an outsider you could see the writing on the wall during Daglish's reign.
All I remember from the Souness era was the spice boys and a bunch of talented youth that didn't have the work ethic of the previous generation. Like many young players under Fergie, your young players thought they had it made once they played for the first team, so didn't continue to develop.
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Souness wasn't the Spice Boy era. He was sacked in 1994 - the Spice Girls' debut single was 1996. The girls came before the boys, so to speak.

As for the Dalglish comments, there's no doubt that Hillborough had taken its toll on him. He resigned due to stress and his squad was weakening. But his last season saw Liverpool come second, having won the league the year before. Souness didn't inherit junk, but he rebuilt with junk.
 
PickledRed said:
Souness wasn't the Spice Boy era. He was sacked in 1994 - the Spice Girls' debut single was 1996. The girls came before the boys, so to speak.

As for the Dalglish comments, there's no doubt that Hillborough had taken its toll on him. He resigned due to stress and his squad was weakening. But his last season saw Liverpool come second, having won the league the year before. Souness didn't inherit junk, but he rebuilt with junk.
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Many fans felt that had Dalglish stayed until the end of the season then we'd have won that title too (no blame being assigned to Kenny here, he did more for those bereaved than any man should be asked to). If I remember correctly we were clear at the top when he resigned and thereafter fell away badly.
 
TheReligion said:
It's a pretty bizarre comparison really and one borne out of hope rather than actual substance. The title is as sensationalist as a regular tabloid rag and the content lazy and misinformed.

The fact is the PL is very unstable at the moment and no one team looks likely to dominate. Leicester won it last year whilst the current Champions Elect were languishing at the bottom of the league. Liverpool continue to do nothing of note whilst Spurs simply fail to get over the line. City are rebuilding, much like United and Arsenal are at a crossroad with their manager a la SAF.

I guess the thread is targeted at United as they are the biggest and most successful club in England however I doubt the OP believes the club will go over 26 years without a title (and counting) as Liverpool have given the level of contingency the club has in place.

Besides. We all know Liverpool stopped winning when the backpass rule came into play. It prevented them from continuing to impose their boring brand of football and was the catalyst in their downfall. The rest they say it's history.
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You know what makes me laugh about that, is that you Premiership Pups actually believe it. Those who actually lived through our domination of the English & European game know differently. You obviously didn't witness it just as you've never witnessed your own side do likewise. Keep spending all that money & who knows, one day, Europe might just fall at your feet the way they did in the past for us, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich, & AC Milan.
 
Rafateria said:
Many fans felt that had Dalglish stayed until the end of the season then we'd have won that title too (no blame being assigned to Kenny here, he did more for those bereaved than any man should be asked to). If I remember correctly we were clear at the top when he resigned and thereafter fell away badly.
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Our final league game before he was resigned was a 3-1 win over Everton which kept us top. It's difficult to know what might have happened had he stayed because Arsenal went on a great run (unbeaten I think) so it's possible they could have won the league anyway. I also have to concede that I doubt him staying would have changed the future that much. Ferguson was building a hungry young side whereas we had a lot of aging players who'd seen better days. Might have been interesting though how he'd have done with Fowler, McManaman, & Redknapp in the set-up.
 
Things that ruined Liverpool FC.

1. The backpass.
2. Refs clamping down on foul and violent play so skillful players came to the fore.
3. Fergie highlighting the farcical nature of refereeing at Anfield.
4. The national lottery. The Pools industry fell away and Liverpool owners big source of wealth was reduced.
 
Rafateria said:
Many fans felt that had Dalglish stayed until the end of the season then we'd have won that title too (no blame being assigned to Kenny here, he did more for those bereaved than any man should be asked to). If I remember correctly we were clear at the top when he resigned and thereafter fell away badly.
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Similarly, the timing of Kenny's resignation almost cost Rangers the Scottish title as well. We were clear at the time, then Souness fecked off to Liverpool to replace Dalglish, we collapsed and Aberdeen overtook us on the second last day. Only won the league because we had the fortune of a last-day shootout with Aberdeen at Ibrox.
 
redman5 said:
You know what makes me laugh about that, is that you Premiership Pups actually believe it. Those who actually lived through our domination of the English & European game know differently. You obviously didn't witness it just as you've never witnessed your own side do likewise. Keep spending all that money & who knows, one day, Europe might just fall at your feet the way they did in the past for us, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich, & AC Milan.
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Liverpool were never the best team on the planet. United were. Twice.

 
World class manager Vs Dalglish.

Young players coming through like Rashford who we can keep hold of with money and trophies Vs young players coming through like Steve McManaman who you couldn't keep hold of due to having no money.
 
redman5 said:
That still doesn't even begin to hide the disappointment you must be feeling at not having more European Cups on show in your trophy cabinet.

Lame effort. Just like your previous post.
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Since 1990 Utd have won 28 major trophies and counting with brilliant football.

Before that United had won 14.

Pretty much over the moon with that to be honest. No United fan ever though in 1990 that we would ever be in this position.
 
It is possible but I doubt very much we will end up the same as Liverpool. Money plays a big part, as well as image rights etc. We have seen that it can be a bigger lure than CL footie.We'll still attract the top players.
If we haven't won another title in the next 5 years, I will start to worry. I reckon Mourinho will get us back on track.
 
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