ThatsGreat
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Its a race between Arsenal and Utd to see who sacks their manager first. I think its going to be Arsenal, because Utd are too attached to Ole who's your legend.
I'd love Naglesmann or Marco Rose. But Poch remains my number 1 choice.I’m still hoping Ole comes through. Looking ahead, Neglesmann is the one we should be looking at as a progressive manager.
Why? What's the point of a caretaker? Do you honestly think we could get top 4 with this group of players?Blanc till end of season
How gettable is he? I really feel we need one of these young German/European coaches in who are proper coaches. Somebody who can give us a modern footballing identity. We need to build this before we dream about results. Sort of like the job Pochettino did building from within (yes I know he didn't win anything). Once we become a proper fluid football team, our resources will lead to a team that can challenge. But the basics - the excellence in the collective needs to come first.Still Marco Rose for me
I suppose the point of a caretaker would be to move on. I don't have any qualms with Ole seeing out the season, however it shouldn't be a viscous circle where nobody is clear where they stand as A) that would stall the process of finding the next manager and B) everytime we get a few decent results there's a clamour for him being the saviour or given another chance. If Ole is informed that we are in the process of finding a new manager and he is working pretty much in a caretaker capacity for all intents and purposes then I have no issue with him seeing out the season.Why? What's the point of a caretaker? Do you honestly think we could get top 4 with this group of players?
I say we keep Ole until we secure the right replacement. In my opinion he's not good enough, but he's not toxic to the club the way Jose or Van Gaal was, so why change just for the sake of it?
That's the sad part honestly. People can't seperate the manager and the player.Its a race between Arsenal and Utd to see who sacks their manager first. I think its going to be Arsenal, because Utd are too attached to Ole who's your legend.
That's a fecking retarded viewpoint. We are not sacking Ole just for the sake of it. We are sacking him simply because he is nowhere near good enough for a club of our size.Why? What's the point of a caretaker? Do you honestly think we could get top 4 with this group of players?
I say we keep Ole until we secure the right replacement. In my opinion he's not good enough, but he's not toxic to the club the way Jose or Van Gaal was, so why change just for the sake of it?
Tottenham seem to have imploded this season. That doesn't look good on the manager whose task is to keep players motivated and acting as a single unit. However, Id rather see an implosion then a gradual decline. The former can be tackled by removing the few bad apples and bringing in a motivator in the team. The latter is down to talent basically. The latter is far far more expensive then the former.
I wouldn't be so sure that we will be reinvesting Pogba's money after all we said the same thing about Ronaldo's and Lukaku's money. United might talk big about being 'great spenders' but we're the one starting the season with a non existent midfield/forward line and an amateur Lidl like manager to match.
I provided you ample reasons why United is a step down
a- a major rebuild is needed and not enough will is being shown by the club to be keen to be ready to foot the bill for it
b- modern managers think in short term. United's project will take years
c- we have already ruined the career of 3 managers. We're swiftly becoming a poison chalice.
d- we've got an incompetent board and owners who only think about their pockets
Id suggest you stop thinking as a Manchester United supporter and start seeing things from a neutral perspective ie someone who see football as a career and wouldn't jeapardize that career for anyone.
Because Ole is terrible and needs to leave. At any other club he would be fired, he for sure has a legend status and Ed protecting him. Fans are ignorant of the resultsWhy? What's the point of a caretaker? Do you honestly think we could get top 4 with this group of players?
I say we keep Ole until we secure the right replacement. In my opinion he's not good enough, but he's not toxic to the club the way Jose or Van Gaal was, so why change just for the sake of it?
That's a fecking retarded viewpoint. We are not sacking Ole just for the sake of it. We are sacking him simply because he is nowhere near good enough for a club of our size.
25% win rate since he was made permanent. 7 wins in 28 games. To put things into perspective, let's look at other clubs, clubs that are smaller than us. Leicester sacked Shakespeare after 42% win rate in 26 games and Puel after 34% win rate in 67 games. Watford sacked Javi Garcia after 38% win rate in 66 games. Brighton sacked Hughton after 41% win rate in 215 games. Marco Silva is at risk of being sacked by Everton after 42% win rate in 55 games. Even a club of similar stature as us - Emery at Arsenal is a dead man walking at 58% win rate in 74 games.
Smaller clubs have sacked managers with way better record than Ole, so why the hell are we persisting with a manager that is clearly not up to the task? For the sake of romanticism? Sentimentalism? Is this what we are reduced to? Hoping for a miracle while indulging in nostalgia?
I am pretty sure that Erik Ten Hag is nailed on to be the next Bayern Munchen head coach. Even Overmars said recently that if a big team like Bayern comes calling for Ten Hag the Ajax management will be ready with a replacement..Bit odd that Ten Hag isn't being mentioned more frequently. The likes of de Boer or Bosz haven't exactly covered themselves in glory so some are justifiably circumspect of yet another system manager from Ajax, and others are wary of them performing way over the odds in irreplicable “perfect storm” circumstances last season (like Monaco 2013/14), but managers aren't that different from players with regard to assessment as individuals — and every once in a while you get a Frenkie De Jong to reaffirm your faith after less-than-ideal showings by Klaassen or Bazoer, provided you're willing to risk it for the biscuit. Definitely checks off a lot of boxes when you look at United's keystone value and what we need at this moment in time:
Ajax has maintained a strong organisational philosophy in recent years, so you can't quite be sure how much credit should be appropriated to them (and specifically Overmars) vis-à-vis Ten Hag, but he'd definitely be on my shortlist with Nagelsmann or Rose as the head coach — and despite signing a new contract, might be the most realistic of the trio because the other two are months into their new jobs at Leipzig/Mönchengladbach and are very unlikely to move just yet.
- Clearly defined style/principles of play: one of the biggest complaints in recent months has been that we look quite listless/inconsistent in terms of our overall approach, and Ten Hag could be just the man to address those issues because Ajax look a coherent team with an emphasis on intelligent pressing patterns, one-touch football, movement through the lines or half-spaces and verticality under him, and he no doubt learned a lot from Guardiola from his time as Bayern Munich II's manager to bolster his repertoire (especially Pep's fabled Juego de Posición ideology).
- Individual development or extracting the best out of certain players: the likes of Tadić (from decent player at Southampton to one of the most effective False 9s in club football), Tagliafico (from Argentine Primera División to one of the best in his position in Europe), Onana (one of the best sweeper keepers around these days), Blind (discarded by United but instrumental in Ajax's success) improved a good deal under him or produced some of the best performances of their careers.
- Positive record at managing youngsters: De Ligt, De Jong, Dest, Van De Beek, Promes, Neres, Álvarez are talented players so they might have done well under other managers too, but his coaching definitely played a part in their improvement at the club.
- Structural fluidity in the team's setup: as an extension of the first point, Ajax's players evidence great positional freedom under him (albeit sticking to certain foundational roles quite diligently) and seamlessly switch between 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 or a scheme with 3 in defense when one central midfielder drops to organize things from the back. All done with a degree of smoothness/intelligence that speaks volumes about his ability to enunciate his instructions, and putting the best impact-makers in favorable roles instead of stifling them (most notably De Jong as a sort of libero, as opposed to just being a normal central midfielder).
Yep, that's what I fear with his background at Bayern and their lukeworm to downright abject performances under Kovač (who was a strange choice to begin with but apparently supported by major power-brokers, like Valverde at Barcelona). From the perspective of a United supporter, I obviously hope Hoeneß retains the current manager for another couple of seasons to continue his string of bad decisions since returning from jail, thereby diluting the potential competition for Ten Hag's signature...I am pretty sure that Erik Ten Hag is nailed on to be the next Bayern Munchen head coach. Even Overmars said recently that if a big team like Bayern comes calling for Ten Hag the Ajax management will be ready with a replacement..
Think this is spot on. To be fair though, i am pretty certain Jose would have won us a couple more PL's had he gotten here in 2013. Him getting here just happened to coincide with City and Liverpool becoming as good as they have ever been. Moyes and LvG, kinda made their own beds imo. Moyes because he spent all summer star gazing and though just adding Fellaini and Mata would be enough and LvG because he was too concerned with his own philosophy and he spent way too much money on dross in the market.
Things are looking pretty grim now and Ole looks out of his depth. I can perfectly understand that viewpoint, i am even starting to shift there myself. The problem though is that our malaise goes far beyond just the manager and whoever is managing us next year and the year after still have a massive task at their hands. So lets say we sack Ole now and get in Poch or Allegri or whoever. They get a rough start and do about the same after 10 PL games, do we start looking for yet another manager then?
Jose has cleaned the table in pretty much ever job hes ever had, and all he won here were some cups and a 2nd place finish miles behind City. Honestly there is only one manager in the world that i would be certain that could fix this, and unfortunately hes managing Liverpool at the moment. Pep as good as he is has only had jobs were he has played with cheat codes, Poch has a very good Spurs team and almost zero pressure to deliver silverware, Allegi has won Serie A with Juventus, which to be honest is to be expected since they are comfortably a horses head and then some above the rest of the league
-DDG: What happened to him? He used to save our arses again and again and hes just stopped doing that. Dont know what his save% is this year, but it must be pretty shite since we seem to concede from pretty much every shot on target these days. Pretty sure we would have done just as well with Romero or that kid we have out on loan as GK
-Defense: AWB is POTY so far this year by a good marigin. Maguire has been solid but not spectacular considering the price we paid. Lindelof, Baily, Rojo and Jones always seems to have an error in them and it always seems to cost us having them on the pitch, bang average at best and often quite poor actually. LB is also a problem. Shaw is always injured and Young is just too old really.
- MF: Pogba seems to not want to be here and even then hes been injured pretty much the whole season anyways. Scott i really like and i think he has great potential, but hes only 22 and most CM's dont really grow into their roles properly until they are 25-26. In a well stocked squad, Scott would have been a squad option and a promising talent, not the main man. The less said about the other MF options the better. Fred, Pereira, Lindgaard, Mata and Matic are simply not good enough. Not even close
-Attack: I like James. Seems to have the right attitude and seems like a good little player, but he again is just a kid and i find it pretty jarring that a 21 year old kid who played in the Championship last season has walked into the team and been our most consistent attacking threat. Martial and Rashford are so inconsistent they make me want to tear my hair out. One match they can look like future Ballon d'or winners and the next one they can look like Championship dregs.
And i am not trying to exonerate Ole here. He is party responsible for this mess. He has vastly overrated the capacity of some of these players and going into the season with such an ridiculously thin squad was bound to cause problems. Considering we sold Lukaku we did not even spend that big this summer. Like 70 million? Now, to be fair, the last thing i want is more knee jerk transfers that just adds to the deadwood, but adding quality to this squad is a ver low bar to clear and there must have been someone available
I’m still hoping Ole comes through. Looking ahead, Neglesmann is the one we should be looking at as a progressive manager.
I quite like Ten Hag but I think this attitude of going for the easily attainable or gettable manager is exactly has us in this predicament. Do we really think Real Madrid would consider whether Rose is just months into his new contract if they identified him as their man? We behave like a small club and now our performances are beginning to match that attitude, remember how Real muscles Ancelotti out of PSG?Bit odd that Ten Hag isn't being mentioned more frequently. The likes of de Boer or Bosz haven't exactly covered themselves in glory so some are justifiably circumspect of yet another system manager from Ajax, and others are wary of them performing way over the odds in irreplicable “perfect storm” circumstances last season (like Monaco 2013/14), but managers aren't that different from players with regard to assessment as individuals — and every once in a while you get a Frenkie De Jong to reaffirm your faith after less-than-ideal showings by Klaassen or Bazoer, provided you're willing to risk it for the biscuit. Definitely checks off a lot of boxes when you look at United's keystone value and what we need at this moment in time:
Ajax has maintained a strong organisational philosophy in recent years, so you can't quite be sure how much credit should be appropriated to them (and specifically Overmars) vis-à-vis Ten Hag, but he'd definitely be on my shortlist with Nagelsmann or Rose as the head coach — and despite signing a new contract, might be the most realistic of the trio because the other two are months into their new jobs at Leipzig/Mönchengladbach and are very unlikely to move just yet.
- Clearly defined style/principles of play: one of the biggest complaints in recent months has been that we look quite listless/inconsistent in terms of our overall approach, and Ten Hag could be just the man to address those issues because Ajax look a coherent team with an emphasis on intelligent pressing patterns, one-touch football, movement through the lines or half-spaces and verticality under him, and he no doubt learned a lot from Guardiola from his time as Bayern Munich II's manager to bolster his repertoire (especially Pep's fabled Juego de Posición ideology).
- Individual development or extracting the best out of certain players: the likes of Tadić (from decent player at Southampton to one of the most effective False 9s in club football), Tagliafico (from Argentine Primera División to one of the best in his position in Europe), Onana (one of the best sweeper keepers around these days), Blind (discarded by United but instrumental in Ajax's success) improved a good deal under him or produced some of the best performances of their careers.
- Positive record at managing youngsters: De Ligt, De Jong, Dest, Van De Beek, Promes, Neres, Álvarez are talented players so they might have done well under other managers too, but his coaching definitely played a part in their improvement at the club.
- Structural fluidity in the team's setup: as an extension of the first point, Ajax's players evidence great positional freedom under him (albeit sticking to certain foundational roles quite diligently) and seamlessly switch between 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 or a scheme with 3 in defense when one central midfielder drops to organize things from the back. All done with a degree of smoothness/intelligence that speaks volumes about his ability to enunciate his instructions, and putting the best impact-makers in favorable roles instead of stifling them (most notably De Jong as a sort of libero, as opposed to just being a normal central midfielder).
Why? What's the point of a caretaker? Do you honestly think we could get top 4 with this group of players?
I say we keep Ole until we secure the right replacement. In my opinion he's not good enough, but he's not toxic to the club the way Jose or Van Gaal was, so why change just for the sake of it?
The reason we are in this predicament is that our thought processes leading to decisions are flawed because we don't have the people qualified in making these decision in place. Just look at how we responded to our worst season in five or six years! We were fidgeting in the summer, spending six to eight weeks to complete a deal when we needed to complete five, six if you include the Lukaku sell. Will such mediocrity and downright incompetence be tolerated at City, Juve or Real?Ole has a 51% win rate, but whatever.
Its not about romanticism, its about keeping a cool head and playing it smart. Everyone is frustrated about our shite results, but you wanting him gone now is just you wanting someone to blame without thinking about the consequences. Say we sack him and get an internim, the season goes by and none of the other manager targets are available. Woops, seems we dun goofed again. Whoever is next in line, has to be the right choice and he must be given time to rebuild.
4(5) managers in 6 years has left us with a Frankenstein monster of a squad and zero continuity and direction in how we are supposed to play.
I don't really know what's going on behind the scenes, but he's with Moechengladbach, only joined before the start of this season, and is doing very well. I don't see Gladbach as a club that would be able to stop us from getting him, so I think it depends on his interest and likely competition from other top clubs especially if Gladbach keeps up their good form. I don't see him moving mid-season, but I'm confident that we'd be able to get him if we're interested, and I'd be willing to wait even if it means having a caretaker for a year.How gettable is he? I really feel we need one of these young German/European coaches in who are proper coaches. Somebody who can give us a modern footballing identity. We need to build this before we dream about results. Sort of like the job Pochettino did building from within (yes I know he didn't win anything). Once we become a proper fluid football team, our resources will lead to a team that can challenge. But the basics - the excellence in the collective needs to come first.
Neither of those will happen with Ed.I will go with Poch if we are to change. But whoever comes in, needs to be backed and we need 5/6 players.
Think this is spot on. To be fair though, i am pretty certain Jose would have won us a couple more PL's had he gotten here in 2013. Him getting here just happened to coincide with City and Liverpool becoming as good as they have ever been. Moyes and LvG, kinda made their own beds imo. Moyes because he spent all summer star gazing and though just adding Fellaini and Mata would be enough and LvG because he was too concerned with his own philosophy and he spent way too much money on dross in the market.
Things are looking pretty grim now and Ole looks out of his depth. I can perfectly understand that viewpoint, i am even starting to shift there myself. The problem though is that our malaise goes far beyond just the manager and whoever is managing us next year and the year after still have a massive task at their hands. So lets say we sack Ole now and get in Poch or Allegri or whoever. They get a rough start and do about the same after 10 PL games, do we start looking for yet another manager then?
Jose has cleaned the table in pretty much ever job hes ever had, and all he won here were some cups and a 2nd place finish miles behind City. Honestly there is only one manager in the world that i would be certain that could fix this, and unfortunately hes managing Liverpool at the moment. Pep as good as he is has only had jobs were he has played with cheat codes, Poch has a very good Spurs team and almost zero pressure to deliver silverware, Allegi has won Serie A with Juventus, which to be honest is to be expected since they are comfortably a horses head and then some above the rest of the league
-DDG: What happened to him? He used to save our arses again and again and hes just stopped doing that. Dont know what his save% is this year, but it must be pretty shite since we seem to concede from pretty much every shot on target these days. Pretty sure we would have done just as well with Romero or that kid we have out on loan as GK
-Defense: AWB is POTY so far this year by a good marigin. Maguire has been solid but not spectacular considering the price we paid. Lindelof, Baily, Rojo and Jones always seems to have an error in them and it always seems to cost us having them on the pitch, bang average at best and often quite poor actually. LB is also a problem. Shaw is always injured and Young is just too old really.
- MF: Pogba seems to not want to be here and even then hes been injured pretty much the whole season anyways. Scott i really like and i think he has great potential, but hes only 22 and most CM's dont really grow into their roles properly until they are 25-26. In a well stocked squad, Scott would have been a squad option and a promising talent, not the main man. The less said about the other MF options the better. Fred, Pereira, Lindgaard, Mata and Matic are simply not good enough. Not even close
-Attack: I like James. Seems to have the right attitude and seems like a good little player, but he again is just a kid and i find it pretty jarring that a 21 year old kid who played in the Championship last season has walked into the team and been our most consistent attacking threat. Martial and Rashford are so inconsistent they make me want to tear my hair out. One match they can look like future Ballon d'or winners and the next one they can look like Championship dregs.
And i am not trying to exonerate Ole here. He is party responsible for this mess. He has vastly overrated the capacity of some of these players and going into the season with such an ridiculously thin squad was bound to cause problems. Considering we sold Lukaku we did not even spend that big this summer. Like 70 million? Now, to be fair, the last thing i want is more knee jerk transfers that just adds to the deadwood, but adding quality to this squad is a ver low bar to clear and there must have been someone available
The duo of Rose and Maric would be tempted to join us at the end of the season IMO. It would be a huge opportunity for Rose which he wouldn't want to pass on.I quite like Ten Hag but I think this attitude of going for the easily attainable or gettable manager is exactly has us in this predicament. Do we really think Real Madrid would consider whether Rose is just months into his new contract if they identified him as their man? We behave like a small club and now our performances are beginning to match that attitude, remember how Real muscles Ancelotti out of PSG?
What attitude, though? Ten Hag is an an exceptional coach on the basis of his body of work at both Utrecht and Ajax, and pretty much my favorite choice with Nagelsmann and Rose occupying a similar plane (hence their inclusion in the shortlist), and more accomplished in the Champions League to boot — so the way I see it...I quite like Ten Hag but I think this attitude of going for the easily attainable or gettable manager is exactly has us in this predicament. Do we really think Real Madrid would consider whether Rose is just months into his new contract if they identified him as their man? We behave like a small club and now our performances are beginning to match that attitude, remember how Real muscles Ancelotti out of PSG?
This is exactly it, if we have a clue for our next manager we should go out there and get him no matter what.I quite like Ten Hag but I think this attitude of going for the easily attainable or gettable manager is exactly has us in this predicament. Do we really think Real Madrid would consider whether Rose is just months into his new contract if they identified him as their man? We behave like a small club and now our performances are beginning to match that attitude, remember how Real muscles Ancelotti out of PSG?
Always a risky move taking a manager who is going through very bad moment like Poch is.
It's the first time in his short managerial career he's gone through a slump and they don't look like coming out of it any time soon.
Of course you can't write him off but his reputation is definitely taking a lot of hits rights now.
I say we keep Ole until we secure the right replacement. In my opinion he's not good enough, but he's not toxic to the club the way Jose or Van Gaal was, so why change just for the sake of it?
Kovac just been sacked. Apparently their 3rd loss of the season? Elite teams move quickly. I wonder who they will be appointing?!